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Post by ProdigalSon on Mar 2, 2004 10:18:44 GMT -5
Russian derived data has absolutely no credibility. ROFL, that is one of the most absolutely ridiculous ad hominem arguments I have ever heard so far. One can just as easily argue that "Italian derived data has absolutely no credibility" or that "German derived data has absolutely no credibility" or that "any data posted by Graeme has absolutely no credibility." ROFL, I don't suppose they offer introductory logic classes at your community college? Russians, in general, don't look like that.
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 2, 2004 14:57:54 GMT -5
So there are no Bolgars in Bulgaria?
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Post by Dienekes on Mar 2, 2004 17:33:58 GMT -5
I've noticed that the Russians who look like that are usually the BLONDEST, which would suggest that 'look' is not of Mongoloid origin. The Finno-Ugrian admixture in Russians is more concentrated in the north, hence it is expeceted for the 'look' to be concentrated among the blonder elements.
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Post by galvez on Mar 2, 2004 20:44:02 GMT -5
Let's avoid ad hominem attacks. If a person is to dispute a claim made, he should provide contrary evidence or refute the claim.
We know the Italians are fully Caucasoid. No group is totally free of admixture, so negligible amounts of Mongoloid and/or Negroid will be found in various European populations.
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Marina
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Just call me French-Hammerette!
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Post by Marina on Mar 2, 2004 22:07:43 GMT -5
We have to agree to disagree. Russian derived data has absolutely no credibility. If you're so white why do you look they way you are? Those cheekbones, slitty fat eyes, puggy noses. I didn't appreciate your rude comments on Skadi, and I doubt anyone appreciates them here, either, Graeme. You never know. Apparently I'm of a Mongoloid strain in France.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Mar 3, 2004 5:17:18 GMT -5
The Finno-Ugrian admixture in Russians is more concentrated in the north, hence it is expeceted for the 'look' to be concentrated among the blonder elements. Interesting. Does it mean you are not associating the look in question with Mongoloid influence?
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Post by Graeme on Mar 3, 2004 7:11:46 GMT -5
It may be strange to you folks that someone living in Australia knows or has experiences in Europe, I am European anyway. I have travelled the world and because of my work, lived in Europe for years. I have been to Russia twice, once in Soviet times and once after. I have actually been to Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, the Baltic countries and Finland. I am not blind, and I sketch people (without their knowledge), and Russians as a whole are definitely more mongoloid in their looks than other Europeans except Lapps. And I am not talking about the Tatars or mongoloid immigrants.
Also, I do not have an agenda. I am not Italian or have any Italian ancestry. My concern is that various non Meds have a malicious concern to prove the non Europeanness of various Southern populations. That data, 2% mongoloid mtDNA for Italians or the 1-1.25% for Russkies which Rarog has quoted I take with a litre of salt. Those results has to be substantiated many times over by others for it to be accepted. I can go to Russia and select subjects who I am sure will "disprove" the 1-1.25% quoted by Rarog and my methods in assaying the mtDNA will be follow accepted practices. Just like I can chose Albanians, Bulgars, Magyars and Gypsies resident in Italy and do the same thing. The point is scientists have agendas and lie just like other people. I am sure Russkies have an agenda as do Uralic speakers and all Northerners trying to convince everyone of their "whiteness". Bulgars and Magyars were mostly caucasoid even when still in Russia before heading south, but the Golden Horde were definitely and unmistakenly mongoloid.
Blondness is not a distinguishing feature of caucasoids. Most Europeans are not blond, they are brown haired. Just as in the Pacific blondness is not characteristic of Fijians, New Caledonians and other melanesians though blondness occurs there. I have not been to Kazakhstan or Kirghizstan or other Central Asian countries but I am sure there is a visible minority of the mongolised inhabitants of those countries who are blue eyed and blond haired. It is not a big deal.
From reading the submissions of members I have noticed that this is the second time that Italy has been singled out with this mongolian stain push: (1) The Huns (Attila's lot not the Germans) shown as having visited Italy, guess where, yes the Lombardy plain! (2) This thread from the Slavic north, the place where mongoloids have been tranmigrating for thousands of years and where the locals have the highest blood group B allele in Europe. A simple way of working out the level of mongolian genetic intrusion is to work out the normal % of B allele in France and the amount in Russia deduct the lesser amount which will be France and hey presto, the amount of mongoloid genetic intrusion in Russia. No one can deny that the B allele is higher in mongoloids than in Italy or France or Spain.
I am a biologist, trained in genetics, molecular biology and microbiology. If you don't know, mitochondria are endosymbiotes with bacterial DNA, ribosomes, no nuclear membrane and have other bacterial characteristics. So I want to do the same experiments, the same way and I am sure I will get results that prove my hypothesis that all Northerners especially Russians are significantly mongoloid genetically.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Mar 3, 2004 7:58:50 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon :-)
I've never been in Italy, but I watch several Italian and Spanish sat channels regularly. There is no way for Meds to have only 2-5% of Negroid mtDNA, as majority looks significantly Negroid... It's clear that Med genetists have an agenda.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Mar 3, 2004 8:05:58 GMT -5
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Post by Graeme on Mar 3, 2004 8:44:07 GMT -5
If anyone is a mongrel it is you, Brat. I am sure Geirr knows what I mean.
Tri racial? Is that a Freudian slip? So you are one of those people with the notion that Southerners are not white. They are whiter than your horde and definitely more attractive to look at. I can't believe Mendeleev was of your race? He probably was Jewish. Your Rasputineque or Lysenkian arguments don't convince me. Lysenko, now, that is a typical Russian scientist. Yes I know the name is Ukrainian. What I am convinced of is of your hatred of Italians, your racism and your inability to accept what is fixed on your faces. Mirrors are not big in Russia are they? And unlike you I have been to your pathetic excuse of a country. Everything European in Russia was created by Italians and Germans. Even your religion and writing ultimately derives from Greece. Sts Cyril and Methodias be damned. Without the South your lot are just little more than savages and you certainly have shown that savage side.
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 3, 2004 8:52:30 GMT -5
If anyone is a mongrel it is you, Brat. I am sure Geirr knows what I mean. Tri racial? Is that a Freudian slip? So you are one of those people with the notion that Southerners are not white. They are whiter than your horde and definitely more attractive to look at. I can't believe Mendeleev was of your race? He probably was Jewish. Your Rasputineque or Lysenkian arguments don't convince me. Lysenko, now, that is a typical Russian scientist. Yes I know the name is Ukrainian. What I am convinced of is of your hatred of Italians, your racism and your inability to accept what is fixed on your faces. Mirrors are not big in Russia are they? And unlike you I have been to your pathetic excuse of a country. Everything European in Russia was created by Italians and Germans. Even your religion and writing ultimately derives from Greece. Sts Cyril and Methodias be damned. Without the South your lot are just little more than savages and you certainly have shown that savage side. Haven't you made enough unqualified assertions, Graeme? Look at the thread, you're the one who's been hostile from the beginning.
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Post by geirr on Mar 3, 2004 8:59:22 GMT -5
If anyone is a mongrel it is you, Brat. I am sure Geirr knows what I mean.
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Post by Racial Reality on Mar 3, 2004 9:09:19 GMT -5
Richards et al. (2000) found only 0.7% Asian mtDNA in Italians from Tuscany, Rome, Sicily and Sardinia -- one East Asian 'D' sequence and one 'M', which is not Mongoloid per se, but rather proto-Asian and c. 50,000 years old. Romano et al. (2003) found 'M' sequences at a 2.2% rate in Sicilians, but no Mongoloid markers. These 'M's likely entered Italy from the Near East during the Neolithic or even Paleolithic era.
And, of course, all Italians are free of Mongoloid Y-chromosomes.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Mar 3, 2004 9:41:48 GMT -5
Richards et al. (2000) found only 0.7% Asian mtDNA in Italians from Tuscany, Rome, Sicily and Sardinia -- one East Asian 'D' sequence and one 'M', which is not Mongoloid per se, but rather proto-Asian and c. 50,000 years old. Romano et al. (2003) found 'M' sequences at a 2.2% rate in Sicilians, but no Mongoloid markers. These 'M's likely entered Italy from the Near East during the Neolithic or even Paleolithic era. And, of course, all Italians are free of Mongoloid Y-chromosomes. "M" is considered Mongoloid by genetists. Its presence in Italy in the islands is due to isolation. Same thing with the Hvar island and "F". Same with rare and "suspicious" Y-chromosome markers. And of course Russians are free from Mongoloid Y-chromosomes.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Mar 3, 2004 9:49:05 GMT -5
Just to make things clear: Spain and Portugal have about 2.5% of "A" and "C" and "D". Pity West-Goths and Alans carried no "Near East" "M". By the way, I wonder what's the frequency of "M" in the Near East? If it's something like 3% it means that Italians are on 70% Near Eastern
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