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Post by Kukul-Kan on Dec 19, 2003 21:54:44 GMT -5
Mongoloid strain in Italy introduced by Bulgarian settlers and Soldiers during the Middle Age Dalla meta del secolo scorso ai giorni nostri alcuni ricercatori, specie subalpini, si sono dati alla individuazione di terre colonizzate da Bulgari in Lombardia ed in Piemonte ; ed hanno fissato speciale attenzione sulle linee del "Comitatus Burgarensis" indicato in tre diplomi dell '877, dell '890 e del 919From the middle of the last century up until our days some scholars, especially Subalpine(¿), are devouted to the individualization of the lands colonized by the Bulgarians in Lombardy and Piedmont, and are especially interested on the constitution of "Comitatus Burgarensis" indicated in three diplomas from 877, dell 890 e del 919[/b] Egli finalmente ha dato una certa importanza ai Protobulgari di Pannonia, che tutti gli storici, compresi i Magyari, avevano ignorato ; e che pur necessita studiare con diligenza per la vera e completa nozione di uomini, i quali costituiscono pur ora il sustrato etnico di quasi tutta l'Ungheria e delle migliori provincie rurali d'Italia.he has finally given some importante to the proto-Bulgars from Pannonia that all storians, including the Hungarians, had ignored, but that has to be studied diligently to reach the true and real notion of men, who constitute until now the most important ethnic substratum of most Hungary and of the best Italian provinces. ziezi.tripod.com/amico/kn1.htmFig. 1 Lelsi.Mother and Son, Turanic types. Fig 2.- Blonde dolichocephalic husband from of some Longombard origin.Bonito(Avellino). Brunet dolicocephalic wife of some “proiobulgarian” origin because of the type and surname. Fig 3 Common Mongolism in all the family. Lelsi(Campobasso).- Mongolism present in the woman on the right. Fig.- 2 Turanic type from Secondigliano(Naples). Fig 3 Lelsi Turanic type in the middle. Here are the complete racial observations in Italian though. ziezi.tripod.com/amico/kn4.htm
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Post by AWAR on Dec 19, 2003 22:47:13 GMT -5
I understand Italian, but all that fancy terminology was just too much for my brain Could that Turanid-like type be of a much older origin? The proto-Ugrians covered a much larger teritory of Europe around 4000 BC.
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 19, 2003 23:13:46 GMT -5
I understand Italian, but all that fancy terminology was just too much for my brain Could that Turanid-like type be of a much older origin? The proto-Ugrians covered a much larger teritory of Europe around 4000 BC. Ugrians came to Europe from Asia in the 1st millennium AD.
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Post by AWAR on Dec 19, 2003 23:53:25 GMT -5
Ugrians came to Europe from Asia in the 1st millennium AD. hmm....what about the pre-IE hunters? PS. Kukul Kan, is that an explanation for the surname Bulgari?
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Dec 20, 2003 10:11:26 GMT -5
I understand Italian, but all that fancy terminology was just too much for my brain Could that Turanid-like type be of a much older origin? The proto-Ugrians covered a much larger teritory of Europe around 4000 BC. I don’t think they descend from ancient colonizers. It says they were introduced approximately at the same time the Lomgombards conquered Italy. Plus there are records of the years of arrival. Also if the were a reminiscent of an older people they’d be complexly Italianized linguistically, which they’re not because they still use proto-Bulgarian vocabulary according to the website or at least at the time the information was written. Ma quello che cercasi a mala pena in Mesia, ove i Bulgari scesero dopo il 670, si rinviene in Pannonia, dove essi vengono accertati fin dal 400 d. C.Probably.It says the surname Bolcari, which is very likely to come from “Bulgari” is of Bulgarian origin and taking into account Bulgari is the exact word for “Bulgarians“ in Italian it is very possible. P.s. Yes this fancy Italian isn’t like the one those hot girls speak in the RAI.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Dec 21, 2003 12:06:28 GMT -5
(Returning to old discussion with Dienekes)
Incidentally, male Italian islands' Mongoloid (huh?) specific markers are accompanied by female ones... :-)
However, there is no doubt now that in continental Italy many dubious male markers are East-Asian in origin.
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Post by Graeme on Feb 4, 2004 10:04:59 GMT -5
It will take more than some Italian words to convince me. The passages quoted in Italian said nothing about Mongolians just Bulgarians and Magyars.
Everyone seems to assume that because the Magyars and the Bulgars came from Russia and spoke in the case of the Bulgars Turkic that they must be mongolian like Mongols, Tibetans and Manchus. Languages are languages not races and most Turkic speakers were probably not Mongolian until they formed alliances with the Mongols such as in the Golden Horde. The result of these alliances was that some Mongols ended up speaking Turkic and some Turkic speakers interbred with some mongolians. Some Turkic speakers are actually Finns. The Bulgars in Russia lost their ethnicity amongst the Mongols and Tatars. In Bulgaria the Bulgars were absorbed into the Slavic speaking population, either way the Bulgars are extinct as the people bearing their names are Slavs. According to Cavalli-Sforza the Magyars were a minority who conquered a Romance speaking majority, but who adopted the Magyar language. So by the time any Magyars and Bulgars got to Italy they would have lost whatever mongolian traits by mixing with the larger populations they had conquered in Bulgaria and Hungary.
Italians do not have any Mongoloid strains. Go to Germany, Austria, Poland, Russia etc for that. Or stick to Kazakhs, Kirghiz and other central asians who do speak Turkic and are definately mongoloid.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Feb 4, 2004 10:33:14 GMT -5
It will take more than some Italian words to convince me. The passages quoted in Italian said nothing about Mongolians just Bulgarians and Magyars. Everyone seems to assume that because the Magyars and the Bulgars came from Russia and spoke in the case of the Bulgars Turkic that they must be mongolian like Mongols, Tibetans and Manchus. Languages are languages not races and most Turkic speakers were probably not Mongolian until they formed alliances with the Mongols such as in the Golden Horde. The result of these alliances was that some Mongols ended up speaking Turkic and some Turkic speakers interbred with some mongolians. Some Turkic speakers are actually Finns. The Bulgars in Russia lost their ethnicity amongst the Mongols and Tatars. In Bulgaria the Bulgars were absorbed into the Slavic speaking population, either way the Bulgars are extinct as the people bearing their names are Slavs. According to Cavalli-Sforza the Magyars were a minority who conquered a Romance speaking majority, but who adopted the Magyar language. So by the time any Magyars and Bulgars got to Italy they would have lost whatever mongolian traits by mixing with the larger populations they had conquered in Bulgaria and Hungary. Italians do not have any Mongoloid strains. Go to Germany, Austria, Poland, Russia etc for that. Or stick to Kazakhs, Kirghiz and other central asians who do speak Turkic and are definately mongoloid. Italy has more Mongoloid mtDNA than Central Russia, for example. Certain Italian Y-chromosome markers are very dubious as well. Paleoanthropology says that Lombards were somewhat Mongoloid...
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Feb 4, 2004 12:58:35 GMT -5
They didn’t say anything of Mongolians because they weren’t from Mongolia but (partially) Mongoloid. The article clearly says, a Turanic and Mongoloid types are, or at least were, present in some isolated Italian villages populated by Bulgars, who had indeed absorbed Mongoloid like elements.
We present some photographs of people showing different degrees of Mongolism….
For the most part that’s correct. But atavism is always present. Remember that Black girls whose parents were perfectly looking White South Africans?
I don’t see what the fuss is. Some time ago I saw on the Discovery channel a program about Attila. A Swiss anthropologist mentioned there was this very isolated village in the Grisons if my memory doesn’t fail, whose inhabitants presented a much higher percentage of the Mongolian spot and inner epicanthic fold than other Swiss citizens. The inhabitants explained these traits by saying there had always been this legend about some Huns staying in that village.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Mar 2, 2004 7:08:54 GMT -5
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Post by Graeme on Mar 2, 2004 8:37:17 GMT -5
If you think I am going to believe some Russky propaganda over my own eyes you are not all there Brat.
As for Lombards they are an extinct Germanic ethnic group and genetically irrelevent to present day Italy. There have been ethnic Germans in Russia and ethnic Koreans in Japan for centuries - that does not make them Russian or Japanese? Bulgars or Magyars in Italy are just that, Bulgars and Magyars, and the fact that they haven't been ethnically cleansed shows how tolerant Italians are to "Italians" of foreign origin. As for Greece, those Bulgars call themselves Macedonians though they are not. They are Bulgarian speaking Bulgars who happen to be in Greece. They are not ethnic Greeks or Hellenes. Stop seeing ethnic minorities as Italians or Greeks. They are as native as Gypsies and as foreign.
Are you serious, Italian Y chromosomes and mtDNA more mongoloid that Central Russia? What a joke! I suppose those Varangians were so fecund that they made those Russian "caucasoids" look like the God Thor. In Australia it was said during the height of the White Australia policy that "two Wongs do not make a White". Like a lot of mixed race people you just want to see mixing everywhere except in your own backyard. Yurts and stumpy mongolian horses on the Lombardy plain? I don't think so? Get some reliable data from Europe.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Mar 2, 2004 8:50:01 GMT -5
>>>Are you serious, Italian Y chromosomes and mtDNA more mongoloid that Central Russia? What a joke! I suppose those Varangians were so fecund that they made those Russian "caucasoids" look like the God Thor.
Be advised. 2 major studies on Russians showed them to have 1% and 1.25% Mongoloid on mtDNA. The ENTIRE sample on Italians (many studies) showed them to have more than 2% Mongoloid on mtDNA.
And Russian studies included peripheral groups (Middel Volga), and that's where Mongoloid mtDNA appeared in the total sample. Actually, Central Russia (Central EUROPEAN Russia) is free from Mongoloid mtDNA.
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Post by Graeme on Mar 2, 2004 9:41:59 GMT -5
We have to agree to disagree. Russian derived data has absolutely no credibility. If you're so white why do you look they way you are? Those cheekbones, slitty fat eyes, puggy noses.
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 2, 2004 9:45:54 GMT -5
We have to agree to disagree. Russian derived data has absolutely no credibility. If you're so white why do you look they way you are? Those cheekbones, slitty fat eyes, puggy noses. I've noticed that the Russians who look like that are usually the BLONDEST, which would suggest that 'look' is not of Mongoloid origin.
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Rarog
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Post by Rarog on Mar 2, 2004 10:07:29 GMT -5
>Russian derived data has absolutely no credibility.
You have to prove it
> If you're so white why do you look they way you are?
We look ok.
>Those cheekbones, slitty fat eyes, puggy noses.
Do you have anthropological data to support this claim?
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