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Post by alex221166 on May 13, 2004 21:22:29 GMT -5
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Post by Graeme on May 14, 2004 11:47:47 GMT -5
That is an old story. Apparently there is an old Portuguese map with the west coast of Australia on it that predates all other maps. Australia was called Tierra del espirito santo. Sorry for any errors in spelling.
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Post by alex221166 on May 15, 2004 7:06:49 GMT -5
That is an old story. Apparently there is an old Portuguese map with the west coast of Australia on it that predates all other maps. Australia was called Tierra del espirito santo. Sorry for any errors in spelling. I think that this historian is basing his claims in a letter obtained by an Italian spy who was working for the Doge of Venice. The letter is currently in the library of the Vatican. I question some of the claims that the historian makes, but I am absolutely sure that it wasn't Cook who found Australia.
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Octavivs
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errare hvmanvm est, in errore perservare stvltvm
Posts: 100
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Post by Octavivs on May 15, 2004 13:42:57 GMT -5
The histrory of the Great Navigations era is very controversial. There are a lot of places the Portuguese have been before other Europeans, but the official history give the credits to the new cultural dominators (Brits, French...). North America is another good example.
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Post by alex221166 on May 15, 2004 18:46:46 GMT -5
The histrory of the Great Navigations era is very controversial. There are a lot of places the Portuguese have been before other Europeans, but the official history give the credits to the new cultural dominators (Brits, French...). North America is another good example. Indeed, there are maps that show that the Portuguese knew about Newfoundland and North America in the 1420s. There are also historians who believe that Christopher Columbus was a Portuguese of Jewish families called Salvador Zarco (of the same family as the explorer João Gonçalves Zarco, for instance).Columbus' name was "Christofõm Colon" according to the only document signed by him. The tilde is used only in Portugal and Spain. If he was a Spaniard, he would have written Cristobal. On the other hand Christofõm sounds remarkably similar to Cristovão (particularly when it comes to phonetics). Christofõm (Christ - his way of saying that he wasn't a Jew anymore) Colon (comes from the Greek symbol "colon", it also has a hidden meaning) was an alias - it is all explained in that site I mentioned in the beginning of the thread. As to Portugal's explorers, the truth is that we explored almost 2/3 of the globe before anyone else. There is even one map that shows that one Portuguese expedition found the Pacific ocean and explored south America all the way to northern Chile some 15 years BEFORE the Magellan expedition (Magellan and his pilots in that Spanish expedition were also Portuguese, btw). The claim that Cook found Australia in the late XVIII century is particularly ridiculous. I can't believe how anyone can actually think that Portugal - while having a colony in Timor and several throughout Indonesia and the Mollucas - wouldn't have found such a large chunk of landmass. Anglocentrism, that is what it is, and unfortunately, that anglocentrism has been helped by the catastrophic disappearance of most of the Portuguese historical archives that were destroyed during the 1755 earthquake. In any case, there are a few good people working and trying to find documents saved elsewhere that are able to restore the veracity of some claims and put the credit where it rightfully belongs.
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Post by geirr on May 16, 2004 1:25:10 GMT -5
The claim that Cook found Australia in the late XVIII century is particularly ridiculous. I can't believe how anyone can actually think that Portugal - while having a colony in Timor and several throughout Indonesia and the Mollucas - wouldn't have found such a large chunk of landmass. Anglocentrism, that is what it is, and unfortunately, that anglocentrism has been helped by the catastrophic disappearance of most of the Portuguese historical archives that were destroyed during the 1755 earthquake. In any case, there are a few good people working and trying to find documents saved elsewhere that are able to restore the veracity of some claims and put the credit where it rightfully belongs. You are talking total nonsense. The first substantiated discovery was made by Dutchman Willem Janszoon in 1606, James Cook wasn't even the first Englishman to set foot in Australia, Buccaneer William Dampier was. James Cook came late in the scene, he mapped the east coast and established British settlement here. It's probable if not certain that the Portuguese sailed up and down the coast before any other European but there is no known voyage to verify this. There are various theories about Portuguese discovery but none are proven, some blame Portuguese 'secrecy' at the time others blame earthquakes, either way the Anglocentrism you refer to does not explain the lack of proof.
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Post by alex221166 on May 16, 2004 8:27:09 GMT -5
You are talking total nonsense. The first substantiated discovery was made by Dutchman Willem Janszoon in 1606, James Cook wasn't even the first Englishman to set foot in Australia, Buccaneer William Dampier was. James Cook came late in the scene, he mapped the east coast and established British settlement here. It's probable if not certain that the Portuguese sailed up and down the coast before any other European but there is no known voyage to verify this. There are various theories about Portuguese discovery but none are proven, some blame Portuguese 'secrecy' at the time others blame earthquakes, either way the Anglocentrism you refer to does not explain the lack of proof. Well, before your 1606 Dutch voyage, there was AT LEAST the Portuguese exploration of 1601 led by M. Godinho Herédia, and the 1606 expedition that explored most of northern Australia (ed by João Vaz de Torres). Now, these two expeditions are known to have taken place and are historically recorded. Does anyone mention them? No - at least not in northern Europe. If you had read the site I linked this page www.apol.net/dightonrock/anitalianspyconfirmstheportugues.htm you would have realised that there is at least one letter written by an Italian spy called Andrea Corsali, that shows that the Portuguese knew about Australia at least since 1516. If you think that Anglocentrism does not exist (regarding the Portuguese explorations), you should read about the history of Dighton Rock (and about the forged XIX century Viking inscriptions). People are given credit for things that we did or found... For instance, some sites claim that it was the Dutch that introduced tea in Europe in the early XVII century, when the Portuguese were trading tea in Lisbon as early 1550 (probably even earlier). That historian repeats the following statement in one of his pages regarding the exploration of North America: explored by Portugal until proven otherwise. I don't want to sound arrogant, but for most of the world that happens to be completely true.
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Post by SwordandCompass on May 16, 2004 11:23:58 GMT -5
Chief among this possible physical evidence is the mystery of the ‘Mahogany Ship’—the supposed sixteenth-century Portuguese wreck that may or may not be buried in sandhills near Warrnambool, Victoria. www.nma.gov.au/ahm/study01.htmlAnd now the most important piece of the puzzle may be about to come to light. Two men, Des Williams and Jim Henry, have been patiently searching the sand dunes west of Warrnambool in the hope of finding the wreck known as the Mahogany Ship. And in June 1999, they found what they believe to be it. Using an auger, they brought up a tiny plug of timber from below the sand, timber later identified as white oak, one of the timbers the Portuguese used to build their caravels. Soon, an archeological dig will be set up on the site, and if what they find is the fabled Mahogany Ship, and the fabled Mahogany Ship is the lost caravel of Cristaveo de Mendonca, Australia's history will have been rewritten. member.melbpc.org.au/~acal/stories/mahogany.htmlalso the Dieppe maps from france are based on early Portuguese maps. here is a another great page on Europeans in the Far east (like alex said how can the Portuguese have missed the big land known as Australia) PORTUGUESE Colonial REMAINS: (1415-1800) www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/6497/remainP.html page is big with pictures also! there is no doubt that the Portuguese sited Australia.One reason they dont get credit is because of colonization of the island.But that does not negate the fact that they where the first europeans to site the island."Geirir" makes a good point on the Portuguese "secrecy". ill post some more later about this. also Dr da Silva is rewritting history as we know it! Bravo to him and his research! www.apol.net/dightonrock/anitalianspyconfirmstheportugues.htmbut on a sad note Portugal must take interest also!!!
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Arawn
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Post by Arawn on May 17, 2004 13:13:21 GMT -5
Actualy, they do
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Post by alex221166 on May 17, 2004 13:24:18 GMT -5
Actualy, they do In that case, my apologies, but I do wonder why james Cook is remembered as the discoverer of Australia.
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Arawn
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Post by Arawn on May 17, 2004 13:36:41 GMT -5
He isn't, he is merely given the credit of having lanched the 'first' (as far as the British are concnerned) serious survey of the place, mapping it, studying the wildlife and collecting samples, etc and so forth.
There are actualy other claims on who was the first Europen to discover it, one involving a Spaniard, and one very suspect one involing a Frenchman. But i'd suppose you rather pretend only horible anglos would make such claims.
If i renember correctly, from a course i did at uni concerning Europe, science and discovery from the 1500s-1800s, the Portugese are deemed to be the first to have sighted the land mass but only sailed around the western part of it, the Dutch explored parts of the north east, but compeletly miss the southeren bit but managed to find New Zeeland (though what the resembelance with Zeeland is, i don't know). But none-the-less the belief was that there had to be a southern continent, a Terra-incognita-Australis, a belief that existed since the late Greek era, based on nothing at all really, but turned out to be correct (actualy, the belief was that all oceans had to be enclosed by land, the Indian ocean being no exception), so even though various Europeans only saw relativly little bits of it early on, in their eyes it had to be the southern continent. Cook enters the picture one again as being credited as being the man who established it was not *the* southern continent (now called Antartica), but a different one.
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Post by alex221166 on May 17, 2004 17:32:11 GMT -5
But i'd suppose you rather pretend only horible anglos would make such claims. Tell me one thing: are you acquainted with the Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1911, particularly in what concerns Portugal? Are you aware of what happened in 1891 between England and Portugal? Are you aware of what happened in 1657 when we gave England the most proffitable dowary in History (that dowary was the beginning of the British Empire) in exchange for English troops that we never received? I have nothing against the English people, but forgive for knowing my country's history properly. When I witnessed a British historian in the BBC questioning how in the hell a race like that of the Italians could have started the Renaissance (he was speaking in derrogatory terms) I would be naive if I didn't question some things that are said by some so called "historians". One of the few things Hitler was right about, was that if you repeat a lie 1000 times, it might become the truth.
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Arawn
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Post by Arawn on May 17, 2004 17:37:43 GMT -5
Its great that you know your country's history, how about taking the next step and learning about other countries, before making claims like:
Think! You are merely lowing yourself to the level of those minority of idiot 'historians' who so tick you off.
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Post by SwordandCompass on May 17, 2004 17:55:38 GMT -5
Dr. da Silva www.apol.net/dightonrock/main people who have been interested in his research have been people from northern europe.but i understand alex's frustration...
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Arawn
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Post by Arawn on May 17, 2004 18:10:08 GMT -5
I can certainly see the fustration. There have been those English 'Interlectuals' who had some charming things to say about the Welsh, the Germans, the Dutch, the French, the Tanzanians....... Pattern emerging? And as to history, well the problem is shitty history, and the game is to identify shitty history and identify it as such, so that people will know that is shitty history and not regard it as a relaible source. Making a grudge list os shitty history books and bringing out consipracies and making your moronic generalisations or claims really doesn't change anything, but rather, sustains the same mentality that gives rise to shitty history in the first place.
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