Is Islam an insult to Christianity?

[Brasidas]

Molika you are misunderstanding me, I never said I dissaprove, I was only pointing out that Christianity or any other religion doesn't meet any of the criteria that you listed. I support everyones right to believe in whatever religion they want to put their faith in. Like Springa says, the two don't go hand in hand.
You said that a day for god can be a week, month, etc. but if that was how the bible was meant then why does it say the world was created in "7 days"? If it wasn't 7 days then why did God feel the need to have it written 7 days in the Bible? Why was a time frame even important if time wasn't an issue for God?

Most of my family is Greek Orthodox and many are devout followers, but even they question things when they notice something is not quite right. God gave us the ability to do so.

Anyways keep your faith and don't let anyone try and change you, but please think "Scientifically" when you make certain claims, otherwise no one will take you too serious.

[molika]

Springa,
I have neither the time nor the energy to prove you wrong! The question of science vs. faith has been around since well before me and will exist until the end of this world.

What I can tell you if you don't like to read the well stated paper I gave you, is my reply to your statement "Science is based on the fact that it can be changed and proved wrong at any time. Religion is the opposite, it's based on beliefs written in stone and unchangeable, eternal, absolute truth."

Let's begin with your first premise, science is based on the fact that it can be changed. Ok, I agree, but first ask yourself why is this true? Science can be changed because of uncertainty. Why does uncertainty exist? I say because the knowledge of the intricate workings of life, the world and nature are hidden from us and we must discover them by happenstance. We as humans stumble and fumble along until we make a new scientific discovery based on principles we happened upon earlier and we build and build on these premises until we have theories, laws etc. What we scientists do as a matter of fact is make educated guesses.

Think about the law of entropy how everything tends to go to a state of chaos instead of order. How then would we get order out of chaos as in the 'big bang theory' without the Creator?

Religion I agree is set in stone to the believer, it is an absolute by definition. What is the basis of the bible? That God is creator of the heavens and earth. We as humans do not have the knowledge of the Creator. We do not fully understand, we can only study what is already here. Believing that we have a Creator God does not preclude us from forming scientific theories about God's creation. If you believe God created everything then you must believe that there is some order to his creation, i.e. natural laws. God gives us the capacity to learn and study His creation. I just believe that God is a lot more qualified when it comes to His creation than I would ever be in understanding it. When we become believers we have an awe and reverence for God, we lose the ability to assume that we have all the answers.

Brasidas I hope that was scientific enough!

[molika]

Another one of those unscientific minds.

As Isaac Newton wrote in the second edition of the Principia:

"The true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being. His duration reaches from eternity to eternity; His presence from infinity to infinity. He governs all things."


www.utmost-way.com/issacnewtonarticle.htm

[Adam]

Alex

I know my last post was long, but the christian stuff was mostly for molika (I'll reply to u shortly). Anyway, I'm glad to say I find very little to disagree with your last reply. (See the benefit of dialogue?).

Calling western women prostitutes ready for the taking...

this sounds like a contradiction. If u have muslims who consider western women prostitutes, then those same people could definitely not justify or deem them fit for taking on the basis of Islam. Prostitution is a major sin in islam. besides, u have prostitutes in muslim countries as well.

Perhaps u'v heard or read somewhere muslims calling western women loose or promiscuous? Well, it is certainly a fact that the sanctity of marriage and chastity is not as important as it once was in the west. Most, if not all, western countries do not forbid premarital sex or promiscuity and in many countries brothels, escort agencies, strip bars, and pornographic industries in general are licensed and protected by state law.

As for the "ready for the taking" bit, for every muslim who calls the average western woman a prostitute ready for the taking, there are probably a hundred more westerners who accuse the average peace-loving muslim of terrorism.

And accusing the Prophet of

rapes several women after having their husbands executed...

and all that other stuff shows u still take form hostile, dishonest, generally, (or in yr case, exclusively) islam-hating jewish sources.

Remember, we're dealing with habitual slanderers of prophets here. It was the very same mind-set that in the bible accused the Prophet David of sending his friend to a certain death in order to lie with his wife. It was the same evil wretches who accused the Prophet Noah of getting drunk and having incestual sex with his own daughters. Later, they accused the Virgin Mary of fornicating with a Roman soldier. And now, they feel compelled to forge similar lies for the Prophet Muhammad. This is why, in the Qur'an, God says that some of the Children of Israel were cursed by the tongues of David and Jesus.

If u can name the women who these people allege the Prophet to have raped, and their husbands he is supposed to have killed for that lustful aim, then that would be a start.

The issue is that the Gospels teach peace and tolerance while the Koran teaches hatred and aggression.

Well, my advice would be for everyone to get hold of a copy of the Qur'an and the bible, and, with an open mind, judge for themselves. An easy-to-browse online Qur'an is available at: quran.nu/en/

Adam

[Springa]

Now this was a good answer, thanks Molika.
The only problem is that you proved to me what I already knew, that it is possible to believe in god and be a scientist. My problem was with believing in science and at the same time believing firmly that the Bible can't be wrong about anything at all.
Anyway. Believing in god, I agree, "does not preclude us from forming scientific theories about God's creation", but when all scientific evidence and the scientific method do contradict what's written in the bible, time after time, I think it's in order to be suspicious that either science, as a concept is wrong (in this case, one wouldn't want to still remain a scientist), or the Bible is wrong (which I think is the case) or become an atheist or agnostic. Also, if everything in the Bible is true, and one's faith is absolute, then why study these things scientifically? Specially when in most cases the studies will actually contradict the book? That's why I'm saying that you can't really believe in science AND in the notion that the Bible is 100% right about everything.
One thing: although I'm somewhere between Atheism and Agnosticism, I'm totally ok with someone believeing in god and science. I'm just not convinced that it's possible to believe in science and in everything that's in the Bible.

molika said:

Religion I agree is set in stone to the believer, it is an absolute by definition. What is the basis of the bible? That God is creator of the heavens and earth. We as humans do not have the knowledge of the Creator. We do not fully understand, we can only study what is already here. Believing that we have a Creator God does not preclude us from forming scientific theories about God's creation. If you believe God created everything then you must believe that there is some order to his creation, i.e. natural laws. God gives us the capacity to learn and study His creation. I just believe that God is a lot more qualified when it comes to His creation than I would ever be in understanding it. When we become believers we have an awe and reverence for God, we lose the ability to assume that we have all the answers.

Brasidas I hope that was scientific enough!

[Springa]

Ok, but how does that prove that the Bible is completely right?

molika said:

Another one of those unscientific minds.

As Isaac Newton wrote in the second edition of the Principia:

"The true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being. His duration reaches from eternity to eternity; His presence from infinity to infinity. He governs all things."


www.utmost-way.com/issacnewtonarticle.htm

[molika]

Springa,
Thanks.

The reason I gave you that link is because Isaac Newton believed the bible was true scientifically and absolutely. He spent many years studying biblical prophecies and proving the chronology of the bible. This from, in my opinion, the greatest scientific mind in this world.

From my perspective, I trust God, the bible, Newton and then science, in that order... Not that you must agree with me, but I would never put the creation before the Creator. Some things were never meant for us to understand, at least not at this time.

I would be suspicious, very suspicious if I were you!

[Springa]

I am, that's why I think science is better than the Bible to explain things. There's no place for suspicion in the religious world view.

molika said:

I would be suspicious, very suspicious if I were you!

[fassi]

Springa said:

Now this was a good answer, thanks Molika.
The only problem is that you proved to me what I already knew, that it is possible to believe in god and be a scientist. My problem was with believing in science and at the same time believing firmly that the Bible can't be wrong about anything at all.
Anyway. Believing in god, I agree, "does not preclude us from forming scientific theories about God's creation", but when all scientific evidence and the scientific method do contradict what's written in the bible, time after time, I think it's in order to be suspicious that either science, as a concept is wrong (in this case, one wouldn't want to still remain a scientist), or the Bible is wrong (which I think is the case) or become an atheist or agnostic. Also, if everything in the Bible is true, and one's faith is absolute, then why study these things scientifically? Specially when in most cases the studies will actually contradict the book? That's why I'm saying that you can't really believe in science AND in the notion that the Bible is 100% right about everything.
One thing: although I'm somewhere between Atheism and Agnosticism, I'm totally ok with someone believeing in god and science. I'm just not convinced that it's possible to believe in science and in everything that's in the Bible.

For Spinga and Molika

I took the following text from "www.icbh.org/topics/biblethe.htm" . This is the summary of someone who read the famous Dr. Maurice Buccay's Book : "THE BIBLE, THE QURAN AND SCIENCE", translated from French to English. I personally read this book many years ago.

For Springa when you wrote .." One thing: although I'm somewhere between Atheism and Agnosticism, I'm totally ok with someone believeing in god and science. I'm just not convinced that it's possible to believe in science and in everything that's in the Bible"...You're near the truth. When you will read this text and, why not all the book, you will realise how much time did you lose in order to be convinced that it is possible to believe in science and in everything in the KORAN because this holy book is the unalterable one which was revealed by Allah the creator of everything, to correct many deviations of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), and to guide human from the evil way to his right way, from the illogic to logic matters,

When reading, You will confirm your opinion about Bible Vs Science but you will be surprised by the Coran-Science homogeneity.

For Molika, I hope that you open your mind and don't be closed in your falsified bibles (I believe on all original holly books but where are there). I gave you proofs about the reality of Jesus (Peace be upon him) but you didn't or won't take time to meditate!! This book and other's (www.islam-guide.com) as I told you will show you the basic and immutably scientific truth as revealed in Coran 1400 years well before their discovery in thé 20ème century.

Good lecture.

[fassi]

fassi said:

For Spinga and Molika

I took the following text from "www.icbh.org/topics/biblethe.htm" . This is the summary of someone who read the famous Dr. Maurice Buccay's Book : "THE BIBLE, THE QURAN AND SCIENCE", translated from French to English. I personally read this book many years ago.

For Springa when you wrote .." One thing: although I'm somewhere between Atheism and Agnosticism, I'm totally ok with someone believeing in god and science. I'm just not convinced that it's possible to believe in science and in everything that's in the Bible"...You're near the truth. When you will read this text and, why not all the book, you will realise how much time did you lose in order to be convinced that it is possible to believe in science and in everything in the KORAN because this holy book is the unalterable one which was revealed by Allah the creator of everything, to correct many deviations of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), and to guide human from the evil way to his right way, from the illogic to logic matters,

When reading, You will confirm your opinion about Bible Vs Science but you will be surprised by the Coran-Science homogeneity.

For Molika, I hope that she open her mind and be logic in not be closed in falsified and wrong ideas which were wrote by human (I believe on all original holly books but where are there ?). I gave you proofs about the reality of Jesus (Peace be upon him) but she didn't or won't take suffisant time to meditate and to compare with scintific methodology !! This book and other's (specially http://www.islam-guide.com) will show you the basic and immutably scientific truth as revealed in Coran 1400 years well before their discovery in the 20ème century.

Good lecture

THE BIBLE, THE QURAN AND SCIENCE
Dear Brothers & Sisters:
I recently read a book that is highly recommended to all Muslims, especially Muslims who are involved in Dawat. I will try to summarize the book in the next few pages for you enough to stimulate your thought to read the whole book. The book is called The Bible, The Quran and Science by Dr. Maurice Bucaille, a french surgeon. The book was published by American Trust Publications in 1979. Dr. Bucaille says that as an educated person with a scientific mind, it is very hard to believe in a holy book with the word of God being the ultimate source of knowledge if the holy book contradicts modern science. With that in mind, he concludes that the Holy Quran is the word of God untampered by humans and not contradicting science. In the case of the old testament or new testament, the human modification has made it scientifically unacceptable. To prove his point, he is giving the following examples:
1. Creation of the world: Genesis 1:1: The world was created in 6 days, light was created on the first day and the sun was created on the 4th day. This is scientifically incorrect.
The Quran says that God created the world in 6 periods.
2. Genesis 1:7 indicates on the first day water was created everywhere and God separated the waters with firmament into heaven and earth on Day 2. This is scientifically incorrect. At the beginning, the whole world was a gaseous mass and was then divided and cooled off (big bang hypothesis).
The Quran says the world was a gaseous mass before it was divided up.
3. Genesis 1:13 states God created vegetables on the third day and the sun was created on the 4th day.
It is not scientifically acceptable to have vegetables survive without the sun.
4. In the Jewish calendar, the year of creation is 5755. This is based on the date that Prophet Adam came to earth (Genesis 4:1) and the world was created.
This is not scientifically correct. The world was created millions of years ago as were the humans on earth.
5. The story of the flood - Genesis 6:7. The Bible indicates that the big flood 4000 years ago was universal and the whole world was destroyed except for Prophet Noah and his arc. This is not scientifically possible and historically is not correct. Other nations existed 4000 years ago and were not affected by the flood.
The Quran indicates that the flood was a local event and not a worldwide flood.
Dr. Bucaille calls the Bible "the memories of the apostles". Mathew was a customs officer who wrote his memories of Jesus, Mark was an eyewitness to Jesus' life, Luke was a physician who wrote about Jesus. John was very close to Jesus and wrote his memory, and Paul who wrote his letters in 50 A.D., was a supporter of separating Christianity from Judaism. Paul did not know Jesus when Jesus was alive, but saw Jesus' spirit when he was going to Damascus. Paul wrote major portions of the Bible and advocated that male Christians may not be circumcised and may eat pork in order to be different from the Jews. He promoted many differences that exist between Jews and Christians. The 4 gospels were produced 70-110 years after Jesus' death. The description of various events are different in the 4 gospels indicating human error.
6. The genealogy of Jesus, according to Mathew and the old testament, indicates that Abraham lived in 1850 B.C., and from Abraham to prophet Adam the first man was 20 generations of man.
This is scientifically incorrect. From the first man to Prophet Abraham, there were probably millions of years and millions of generations.
7. Dr. Bucaille points out, with reference, many contradictions between the 4 gospels and Paul's letters on important events like Jesus' death, resurrection, ascension, and the last super (pages 82-102).
Dr. Bucaille then examines the Quran by the same standards and points out various miracles of the Quran. He concludes that the Quran is the only Holy Book that is the word of God in total, unaltered by human hands and preserved in its original language and text, and could not have been written by the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) without revelation from God. God through the Angel Gebrael, revealed the Quran to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) piece by piece over a 23 year period. As Prophet was uttering revealed portions, his companions wrote it down. It then was put together a few years after the Prophet's death into its existing format. One of the original copies of the Quran compiled by Khalifeh Ottman still exists in its original form in the Istanbul Museum in Turkey.
I hope you will find time to read the book in detail. God Bless You and Your Family.

[mike2]

Agreed about the first man to Abraham thing. Yeah, there are lots of gaps in the genealogies. The time frame should not be taken literally.

[Springa]

Thanks, Fassi, seems interesting, I'll check it out.

fassi said: