Is Islam an insult to Christianity?

[Adam]

also, while it is entirely true that Muslims preserved, translated and further developed much learning of the ancient world, all this pales in comparison with Islam's original contribution to civilisation.

the muslims were pioneers and innovators in numersous fields of emperical science including mathematics (everything from algebra to geomatry), human geography, astronomy, social science, biology, physics, chemistry, botany and medicine.

a great many practical arts were championed by Muslims like architecture, engineering (it was Muslims engineers who rebuilt Peking and irrigated Chinese Yunan), navigation (it was Muslim who paved the way for Columbus' so-called discovery), etc.

the reason so little of the Islamic contribution is unknown by so many is due to both plagiarism and dishonesty. the circulation of blood, the shape of the earth, and much of what is passed off as Darwin's theory of evolution are just some examples of things taken from centuries prior Muslim scholarship. Averoes is latinised Ibn Rushd, Avicena is Ibn Sina, etc, etc.

also, this thing about the Greeks being the original harbingers of western civilisation is also in part a racially motivated fable of western romantics. the Greeks themselves were great borrowers of mostly Near Eastern cultures. Democracy is but one thing the Phonecians and Mesopotamians predated Athenia by several centuries.

finally, on Cat Stevens. why is that only neo-cons and zionists condsider him a fundamentalist while all others - Muslims and non-Muslims alike - think he is anything but. becasue they, the neo-con/zionists are themselves facists and islam haters. anyone who practices islam, promotes it successfuly and is naturally anti-Israel (Israel being among the world's greatest and consistant human rights abusers) is a fanatic in thier eyes. as Prince Charles said:

"We need to be careful of that emotive label, 'fundamentalism', and distinguish, as Muslims do, between revivalists, who choose to take the practice of their religion most devoutly, and fanatics or extremists who use this devotion for political ends." (Chazza, Islam and the West, Oxford 1993)

[alex221166]

ah! now your true colours come out. its not that you're intolerant of extremism

My "colours" have come out more than a year ago after I started reading and studying Islam. I am intolerant of intolerance.

. you're intolerant of islam full stop. you are bent on painting all Muslims and jihad as evil an anametha to the west.

Not all Muslims are evil. Muslims that actively fight the extremism of some of their brethren - often risking their lives in doing so - have all my respect and consideration. And yes, Jihad is evil.

if Zarqawi is validated by the Quran and hadith, how come only he and other extremist post-colonial fringe movements misinterpret the Islamic texts so?

LOL! Dude, East-Timor, Phillipines, Indonesia, Kashmir, Iraq, Israel, Egypt, 311, 911... ONLY A FEW? And they aren't misinterpreting the Islamic texts, they are actually reading them! This is what idiots like you don't get: most "Muslims" don't even know how to read, let alone how to "misinterpret" the Islamic texts. They believe what they are told by their iman. And if you take a good look, you will find that the most extremist Muslims are those that have actually studied the Koran (namely at the Koranic schools). Take a wild guess, genius.

The march of history as wel las present day reality contradicts your assertaions

Dr. Gustav LeBon: "The reader will find, in my treatment of the Arabs' conquests and the reason of their victories, that force was never a factor in the spread of the Koranic teachings, and that the Arabs left those they had subdued free to exercise their religious beliefs. If it happened that some Christian peoples embraced Islam and adopted Arabic as their language, it was mainly due to the various kinds of justice on the part of the Arab victors, with the like of which the non-Moslems were not acquainted. It was also due to the tolerance and leniency of Islam, which was unknown to the other religions. ... The early Arab conquests might have blurred their common sense and made them commit the sorts of oppression which conquerors usually commit, and thus ill-treat the subdued and compel them to embrace the Faith they wanted to spread all over the globe. Had they done so, all nations, which were still not under their control, might have turned against them, and they might have suffered what had befallen the Crusaders in their conquest of Syria lately. However, the early Caliphs who enjoyed a rare ingenuity which was unavailable to the propagandists of new faiths, realized that laws and religion cannot be imposed by force. Hence they were remarkably kind in the way they treated the peoples of Syria, Egypt, Spain and every other country they subdued, leaving them to practise their laws and regulations and beliefs and imposing only a small Jizya in return for their protection and keeping peace among them. In truth, nations have never known merciful and tolerant conquerors like the Arabs. ... The mercy and tolerance of the conquerors were among the reasons for the spread of their conquests and for the nations' adoptions of their Faith and regulations and language, which became deeply rooted, resisted all sorts of attack and remained even after the disappearance of the Arabs' control on the world stage, though historians deny the fact. Egypt is the most evident proof of this. It adopted what the Arabs had brought over, and reserved it. Conquerors before the Arabs -- the Persians, Greeks and Byzantines -- could not overthrow the ancient Pharaoh civilization and impose what they had brought instead."

Blablabla, read Bat Ye'or's "The myth of Islamic tolerance", then talk.

how pathetic. these scare tactcs are worhty of Goebels.
there's a 35000 strong communty of muslims in my own NE UK town, representing ethnic groups - including many white converts - from all over the globe. There are about five individuals who are pro terroristic tactics, and they are characterised by extreme ignorance of the religion. 5 out of 35,000. how come yr zionist neo cons didn't poll my community?

Tell me: how many of those 35000 lifted a finger to stop those 5 Muslim terrorists?

[alex221166]

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill

[alex221166]

www.faithfreedom.org/Iran/KhomeiniSpeech.htm

Khomeini's speech on the day of celebration of the birth of Muhammad: 1981
سخنرانی آقای خمينی
سالروز تولد رسول اسلام , سال 1360


The real Day of God is the day that Amir al mo’menin (1) drew his sword and slaughtered all the khavarej (2) and killed them from the first to the last. يوم الله واقعی روزی است كه امير المؤ منين عليه السلام ، شمشيرش را كشيد و خوارج را از اول تا به آخر درو كرد و تمامشان را كشت



The Days of God are when Allah, the gracious, the almighty, causes an earthquake.
ايام الله روزهائی است كه خداوند تبارك و تعالی يك زلزله ای وارد ميكند



It is when He slaps on the face.
يك سيلی را وارد ميكند



It is when he causes a hurricane.
يك توفانی را وارد ميكند



He whips this people to become humans.
به اين مردم شلاق ميزند كه ، آدم بشوند



If the Amir al mo’menin (1) wanted to be tolerant, he would not have drawn his sword killing 700 people in one go امير المؤمنين اگر بنا بود مسامحه كند شمشير نميكشيد تا 700 نفر را يكدفعه بكشد



In our prisons we have more of the same kind of people who are corrupt.
در حبس های ما هم بيشتر از اين اشخاص هستند ، كه مفسدند



If we do not kill them, each one of them that gets out, will become a murderer! اگر ما اينها را نكشيم ، هر يكی شان كه بيايد بيرون ميرود آدم ميكشد



They don’t become humans.
... آدم نميشوند اينها



Why do you Mullahs only go after the ordinances of prayer and fasting?
شما ، علما چرا فقط سراغ احكام نماز و روزه ميرويد



Why do you only read the Quranic verses of mercy and do not read the verses of killing? چرا هی آيات رحمت در قرآن را ميخوانيد و آيات قتال را نميخوانيد



Quran says; kill, imprison! قرآن ميگويد بكشيد ، حبس كنيد



Why are you only clinging to the part that talks about mercy? چرا شما همان طرفش را گرفته ايد كه صحبت از رحمت ميكند



Mercy is against God. رحمت مخالف با خداست



Mehrab (3) means the place of war, the place of fighting. محراب يعنی مكان حرب ، يعنی مكان جنگ



Out of the mehrabs, wars should proceed, از محرابها بايد ، جنگ پيدا شود



Just as all the wars of Islam used to proceeded out of the mehrabs. چنانكه بيشتر جنگهای اسلام از محرابها پيدا ميشد



The prophet has [had] sword to kill people.. پيغمبر شمشير دارد تا آدم بكشد



Our [Holy] Imams were quite military men. ائمه ما همگی چندی ، نظامی بودند

[alex221166]

All of them were warriors. همگی جنگی بودند


They used to wield swords; they used to kill people.
شمشير ميكشيدند ، آدم ميكشتند



We need a Khalifa who would chop hands, cut throat, stone people
ما خليفه ميخواهيم كه دست ببرد ، حد بزند ، رجم كند



In the same way that the messenger of God used to chop hands, cut throats, and stone people.
همانطور كه رسول الله دست ميبريد ، حد ميزد ، رجم ميكرد



In the same way that he massacred the Jews of Bani Qurayza (4) because they were a bunch of discontent people. همانطور كه يهود بنی قريظه را ، چون جماعتی ناراضی ! ... بودند قتل عام كرد



If the Prophet used to order to burn a house or exterminate a tribe that was justice.
اگر رسول الله فرمان داد كه فلان خانه را آتش بزنيد ، فلان طايفه را از بين ببريد ، حكم به عدل كرده است



The lives of people must be secured through punishment.
زندگی بشر را بايد به قصاص تامين كرد



Because, the protection of the masses lies beneath these very punitive executions. زيرا حمايت توده ، زير اين قتل قصاصی ، خوابيده است



With just a few years of imprisonment things don’t get fixed. با چند سال زندان كار درست نميشود



You must put aside these childish sentimentalism.
اين عواطف بچه گانه را كنار بگذاريد



We believe that the accused essentially does not have to be tried. He or she must just be killed.
ما معتقديم كه مجرم اصولا محاكمه ندارد و بايد او را كشت



Only their identity is to be established and then they should be killed.


تنها بايد هويت آنان را ثابت كرد و بعد آنها را كشت

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Amir al mo’menin: The Commander of the Faithful. Title of Ali the fourth Caliph and the first Imam of the Shiites.

(2) khavarej: A group of dissidents that rejected the leadership of Ali and when 4000 of them gathered in the mosque to protest, Ali sent his armed men and massacred them all.

(3) Mehraab : Prayer niche of a Mosque, in front of which the Imam stands when leading the congregational prayers. It literally means the place of war, derived from harb (war)

(4) Bani Qurayza: A tribe of the Jews of Medina whose quarter Muhammad besieged, cut the water to them and when they surrendered, he ordered his cousin Ali and his uncle Hamza to massacre them while their hands were tide from behind to their necks and their bodies were thrown in a ditch. Boys were inspected and if they had pubic hair they were counted as men and executed. The number of men massacred in that day is reported to be between 600 to 900. All their belongings went to Muhammad alone (because Muslims did not have to fight this war the prophet kept all the booty for himself) The children and wives of these Jews were sold as slaves. Muhammad kept the 17-year-old beautiful Rayhanah for himself. Rayhana, whose father, brothers and husband, Muhammad had killed, did not accept Islam and did not agree to marry the prophet. She remained in his household as a sex slave until he died and forbidden to remarry after that.

[Adam]

East-Timor

Nothing to do at all with religion. There was nothing religious about the Indonesian army fighting the east timoreses. They were led by secular, alcohol drinking, party-going westernised officers who are extremely repressive of Indonesian’s Muslims revivalists, fundamentalists, etc.

Phillipines

I supposoe u’r referring to the Abu Sayaf right. Again a criminal gang whith very tenousous links to Islam and no popular support from the moderate Muslim populous of Mindanou.

Kashmir

A national independence movement. Yes there are Muslims fighting Hindus. But they could just as well be Budhhists – which is exactly the case in Sri Lanka. Which verses of the Quran is motivating the Budhhist Tamil Tigers to blow up their fellow Budhhist Sinhalese enemy?

Iraq

Again the factions in Iraq are ethnic. The kurds and sunnis have the same islamic creed. So why are they hostile to each other? race. Its about who controls what, not how to interpret this or that verse.

Egypt

Oh, so the minority of imprisoned and rightly persecuted extremists represent the islam of the 10s of millions of peace loving egyptians? Their understanding of Islam is more correct than that of the vast majority?

This is what idiots like you don't get: most "Muslims" don't even know how to read, let alone how to "misinterpret" the Islamic texts. They believe what they are told by their iman.

Well, u’v just refuted your own hate-filled argument
Like you, muslim extremists have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to Islam. like you, they are sheep who believe whatever their poltical master wants them to believe.

And if you take a good look, you will find that the most extremist Muslims are those that have actually studied the Koran (namely at the Koranic schools). Take a wild guess, genius.

Do you even know whats taught at these Quranic schools (which are a relatively recent South and East Asain, non-arab phenomena)? Its certainly not the meaning of the Quran. Children in these institutions spend their entire youth reading the Quran parrot fasion without understanding hardly one word per page. Take the Taleban. They comprised largely orphan Pakhtun kids who could not string a sinlge sentence in Arabic. The Quran is written in Arabic, so how many verses do u think they understood?

I’m afraid your hatred and intolerance is preventing you from giving anything other than a prejudiced glance at what goes on in the world. Most of these coflicts like most conflicts b4 them are not about religion but about race, nationalism and how all that relates to political power. Ofcourse religion is often used to “bless” and legitimise the bloodshed (as with IDF Rabbis, Orthodox Serb priests, or wannabe clerics like Zarqawi), but the ignoramous one whose agenda is built upon hate will refuse to see that.

Finally, quoting Churchill in this regard does u no favours. Brilliant orator and politician though he was, he was for the most part of his life a racist imperialist. A celebrated hater of “wogs” who believed in right of the British to rule the coloured including the anti-imperialist, independence minded African and Indian Muslims about whom he was speaking.

[Adam]

as for Khomeini, his words have about as much legitimacy in Islam as that murderer, Sharon's. who u gonna quote next? Stalin?! Bin Laden?!

"there's a 35000 strong communty of muslims in my own NE UK town, representing ethnic groups - including many white converts - from all over the globe. There are about five individuals who are pro terroristic tactics, and they are characterised by extreme ignorance of the religion. 5 out of 35,000. how come yr zionist neo cons didn't poll my community?"

Tell me: how many of those 35000 lifted a finger to stop those 5 Muslim terrorists?

who said anything about 5 terrorists? i mentioned 5 terrorist tactic sympathisers. if they were real terrorists, they'd be in prison. they pose no danger except to themselves. like yr average islam-hating neo-con zionist, they're excitable fools whose venom and ignorance is drowned out by the peace-loving masses they dishonestly pretend to speak for.

[Brasidas]

First let me explain something to you. You CAN NOT take what has been created as a recent phenomenon to base your opinions as to how a religion really is in it's FUNDAMENTALS. No religion except for some rain forest tribesmen or Budhism is practiced in it's original form. David Koresh and Al-Zarqawi are just manipulators of religion. David Koresh practiced a vulgarization of Christianity(claiming that he was the next Messiah) and Zarqawi is just a Neo Nationalist who doesn't care who he kills as long as it suits his cause. Islam doesn't say kill other Muslim if they don't agree with you. The same goes for Christianity. If you read about the life of Muhammed you will see that he didn't even want to fight the people of Medina who continuously attacked his followers. So if Islam was a religion of violence and hate, then don't you think he would have attacked those who attacked him??

Christianity can be interpreted as violent also. You do remember the Crusades? Or how about Venetians agreeing to supply the crusaders with ships as long as they first attacked Constantinople? They were Christians slaughtering Christians. So because of the several examples that exist about Christianity is everyone supposed to say Christianity is an evil, hatefull religion? Or how about something closer to your home, the Inquisition? Boy they were nice tolerant people weren't they?? Obviously they were the only ones who knew how to read the bible, after all they studied it everyday.

My original post was talking about the "Basic" beliefs of Religions not their present vulgarizations. I find it amusing that you say that only the extremist know how to read the Quran and that they are the only ones who see it as it's meant to be seen. That is YOUR OPINION!!!!!! My best friend is from Afghanistan, and his mother has the Quran(in Arabic) which she reads everyday. She is the most peaceful person I have ever met. Now do you think if it was a violent religion(in it's fundamentals), that she would be so peaceful and loving?? Most Quranic schools today do not teach only the Quran, but they also teach Neo-Nationalism and hate for anyone that doesn't believe like them, even other Muslims. Islam accepts all the Old Testament religions I.E. Christianity, Judaism, Islam.They are considered by Islam to be "People of the Book". They are even allowed to marry Christians and Jews. If they didn't accept other religions then the "People of the Book" would have never been called that.

Next, I have plenty of education which includes a degree in Anthropology/Archaeology and one in History, so don't tell me I need more of an education. I am fascinated by history and I am also fascinated by other people and cultures. I can look past the hate and see the truth behind the modern veils. As you said yourself only 10-15% of Muslims support those extremist views. So why is it that you "believe" that only those few are the only ones who "really know how to read the Quran?"
The same goes with Christianity only a small percentage of Christians go to the same extreme as those Muslims. I'll give you an example. Here in the U.S there is a small group within the "Right to Life" group that believe it is not OK to abort a fetus, but it's OK to kill the doctors or nurses who perform the abortion.(Isn't one of the Ten Commandments "Thou Shall Not Kill")? Or is it really "Thou Shall Not Kill Unless One Performs Abortions"? Now if this isn't a manipulation of Christianity I don't know what is. You don't see non Christians basing their entire view of Christianity on these few people who manipulate it?? Is it only these few people that are the only ones who really know Christianity because they go to Bible study every Wednesday and Sunday??

Finally for Adam, only a small protion of Ancient Greek knowledge was borrowed from Near or Middle Eastern cultures. Much of it has nothing to do with any of those cultures. The ancient Greeks had a great respect for Cultures older than their own, so they always tried to draw comparisons between their beliefs and the older cultures beliefs. Ancient Greek writers only had other Greeks as a target audience, so they couldn't just say Ammon did, this or this, because they wouldn't know who Ammon was. So what they did was take their own God that closest resembled Ammon and said their name. Like Zeus Ammon. This was also a form of flattery and also a way of making your civilization seem more important and older.
I would like for you to post where you read that the Phoenicians had Democracy before the Athenians did.
Well enough rambling for now.

[alex221166]

Adam, not only are you extensively boring, but you also seem to be one of those annoying leftist-based apologists who will accuse anyone of "hatred" or "racism" just because they disagree with your stupid views.

Timor: while the invasion was not religiously based, the genocide that killed 1 out of every 3 East Timorees obviously was - as was the policy of relocation of Javanese Muslim settlers to that territory. The objective was to erase what united the East Timorees, and that thing was their religion (and to a much lesser extent their language, the tétum).

Phillipines: Just another example of what happens when a Muslim minority gets big enough. We also witnessed the same thing in Kosovo, and we will also witness the same thing in FYROM in one of two decades. If you knew anything about guerrilla warfare, you would know that you need the support of the population - that is what Che Guevara said and he was right, for once.

Kashmir vs Sri-Lanka: this is a perfect example of how stupid you are. You compare a war that started for religious reasons with one that did not. They obviously have no comparison whatsoever. While the Tamil Tigers don't find inspiration in the Koran to blow themselves up, the Pakistanis that blow themselves up in Kashmir do.

Iraq: another sign of your idiocy. The execution of people like Margaret Hassan or Fabrizzio Quatrocchi was obviously religiously motivated. It was not about race (not everything is about racism, but that is something you leftists will have to find out the hard way).

As to my "hate-filled" argument, know that my "hate filled" argument has been welcomed by at least two Iranians - one of them a female who happens to lead a Human Rights organization in Canada. Maybe they are also "filled with hate".

I know your kind, and you are definitely not worth the time.

[Adam]

you also seem to be one of those annoying leftist-based apologists who will accuse anyone of "hatred" or "racism" just because they disagree with your stupid views.

no, not at all. creating a negative sterotype of an entire faith based upon the politically-motivated manipualtions of an extreme few is breeding hate and conflict any which way u spin it.

Timor: while the invasion was not religiously based, the genocide that killed 1 out of every 3 East Timorees obviously was...

no. in east tmor u had gangs of thugs on both sides hacking each other to death with machetes. their ethnic markers were primarily east timorese and indonesian proper. their islam and catholicism was could have been reversed and u'd still have the same problem: east timorese wanting independance.

Phillipines: Just another example of what happens when a Muslim minority gets big enough. We also witnessed the same thing in Kosovo, and we will also witness the same thing in FYROM in one of two decades.

fyi, Islam was the majority religion in Mindanao (South Philipines) well b4 Christinaity. so it din't get big enough. it was always bigger.

as for Kosovo, u r again wholly errant.
firstly, the Albanians (decended from the Illyrians) are, along with the Greeks and Thracians, idigenous to the Balkans. their presence in Kosovo predates that of the Serbs by many centuries.

secondly, the KLF (Kosova Lib. Army) and the Albanian nationalists in general are fundamentally anti-Islamist. in fact, Albanians r generally known for being ultra-nationalist/racist. something which conflicts greatly with islam. for example, the Kosovans attacked the Circassian Muslims diaspora who were settled in Kosovo bcos they refused to get caught up in the fight for independance. hence, they were resettled in their native NW Caucasus by the Russian goverment.

If you knew anything about guerrilla warfare, you would know that you need the support of the population

yes, that is correct. but in the case of Abu Sayyaf, they are not a guerrilla movement, they are a criminal gang who kidnap for ransom. as for the moderate independance-seeking Phillipino Muslims, they do not practice terrorism, so u have no argument there at all

Kashmir vs Sri-Lanka: this is a perfect example of how stupid you are. You compare a war that started for religious reasons with one that did not. They obviously have no comparison whatsoever. While the Tamil Tigers don't find inspiration in the Koran to blow themselves up, the Pakistanis that blow themselves up in Kashmir do.

wrong again. firslty, the Kashmir issue was not about the Kashmiris wanting to live by Islam or under Islamic rule (although many obviously do). it was about the right of self-determination which was denied them. theres UN resolutions on the issue. go check em up.

also, the Kasmiri fighters are not known for practicing suicide bombing. so your statement "the Pakistanis that blow themselves up in Kashmir" is an outright lie.

Iraq: another sign of your idiocy. The execution of people like Margaret Hassan or Fabrizzio Quatrocchi was obviously religiously motivated.

u'r just making all this up, aren't u? Margaret (who was legally married to a Muslim) was kidnapped by a criminal gang whose final demand was for money. A great many Sunni, pro-insurgency Iraqis rallied for her release. Even Zarqawi and other Muslims extremists condemed her kidnapping and demanded her release. according to British anylists (BBC, ITN) they kidnapped her for cash and when the US army came into Fullaja, they panicked and killed her.

As to my "hate-filled" argument, know that my "hate filled" argument has been welcomed by at least two Iranians - one of them a female who happens to lead a Human Rights organization in Canada. Maybe they are also "filled with hate".

yeah, and i know someone who knows some jews, blacks and gays. so i guess we all cool

[Adam]

Finally for Adam, only a small protion of Ancient Greek knowledge was borrowed from Near or Middle Eastern cultures. Much of it has nothing to do with any of those cultures. The ancient Greeks had a great respect for Cultures older than their own, so they always tried to draw comparisons between their beliefs and the older cultures beliefs.

thats actually how i understood it. it didn't intend or suggest the Greeks plagerised anything like the later western europeans did.

This was also a form of flattery and also a way of making your civilization seem more important and older.

i totally agree.

on Phoenician democracy predating Athenian, this was mentioned on an "Open University" documentry aired on BBC2 regarding the debate about Black Athenia.

[alex221166]

no, not at all. creating a negative sterotype of an entire faith based upon the politically-motivated manipualtions of an extreme few is breeding hate and conflict any which way u spin it.

If they were so few as you claim, they would have all blown themselves up by now. The real problem is people like YOU that excuse the obvious with lame lies. Just visit MEMRI or Palestinian Media Watch to get the general picture... or then again, you might want to believe the crap that is posted in Al-Jazeera or in the Muslim News.

no. in east tmor u had gangs of thugs on both sides hacking each other to death with machetes. their ethnic markers were primarily east timorese and indonesian proper. their islam and catholicism was could have been reversed and u'd still have the same problem: east timorese wanting independance.

Moron: I am Portuguese and I was among the hundreds of thousands of Portuguese who marched for the freedom of East Timor. As the former colonizer we got a lot more media coverage over here than anywhere else. Needless to say, you don't have a f*cking clue about what you are saying.

The Indonesian army trained, armed and released pro-Indonesian East-Timoree militias against the civilian population. Most of the killing was done by the Indonesian army during the first years of the occupation - not by East Timorees. Sure, I could reverse the religion and have catholics hunting down Muslims. Fortunately for you, that hasn't happened anywhere in the world since the Austrians kicked the Turk out of the gates of Vienna.

Back at East Timor, and just to show how little you know, do a google search about a certain General called Wiranto.

fyi, Islam was the majority religion in Mindanao (South Philipines) well b4 Christinaity. so it din't get big enough. it was always bigger.

So f*ckign what? The issue is that catholics aren't killing Muslims, but some Muslims are targeting Catholics and most Muslims don't give a f*ck about the whole thing. Deal with it.

as for Kosovo, u r again wholly errant.
firstly, the Albanians (decended from the Illyrians) are, along with the Greeks and Thracians, idigenous to the Balkans. their presence in Kosovo predates that of the Serbs by many centuries.

Then I hope you will agree that the Jews are entitled to Israel (and to the Palestinian Authority territories), because most "Palestinians" are nothing more than the descendents of 19th century Arab settlers.

secondly, the KLF (Kosova Lib. Army) and the Albanian nationalists in general are fundamentally anti-Islamist. in fact, Albanians r generally known for being ultra-nationalist/racist. something which conflicts greatly with islam. for example, the Kosovans attacked the Circassian Muslims diaspora who were settled in Kosovo bcos they refused to get caught up in the fight for independance. hence, they were resettled in their native NW Caucasus by the Russian goverment.

Sure they are, and that is why they received money, weaponry and volunteers from such anti-fundamentalist countries like Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. The UÇK was a terrorist organisation. It was about as "liberating" as the the Inquisition was "Holy".

yes, that is correct. but in the case of Abu Sayyaf, they are not a guerrilla movement, they are a criminal gang who kidnap for ransom. as for the moderate independance-seeking Phillipino Muslims, they do not practice terrorism, so u have no argument there at all

I ahve no arguments against Muslims who mind their own business without being subversive. Unfortunately many Muslims don't fit that description because they lack the objectivity to be introspective and self-critical. That can only be expected from a religion that always puts the blame on others.

wrong again. firslty, the Kashmir issue was not about the Kashmiris wanting to live by Islam or under Islamic rule (although many obviously do). it was about the right of self-determination which was denied them. theres UN resolutions on the issue. go check em up.

also, the Kasmiri fighters are not known for practicing suicide bombing. so your statement "the Pakistanis that blow themselves up in Kashmir" is an outright lie.

You are partially correct. Kashmiri Jihadists are known for blowing themselves up and for targeting and mutilating civilians who they think to be cooperating with the Indian army.

u'r just making all this up, aren't u? Margaret (who was legally married to a Muslim) was kidnapped by a criminal gang whose final demand was for money. A great many Sunni, pro-insurgency Iraqis rallied for her release. Even Zarqawi and other Muslims extremists condemed her kidnapping and demanded her release. according to British anylists (BBC, ITN) they kidnapped her for cash and when the US army came into Fullaja, they panicked and killed her.

Sure I do. Just like I also made up the murder/slaughter of a Coptic family in New Jersey. I make up things for a living. I have a very fertile imagination. My imagination is so fertile, that even though the murderers of Margaret Hassan were in such a hurry because the Americans invaded Fallujah (it was America's fault wasn't it?), the Jihadists still had time to torture her and disembowling her body (find the details at FrontPage Magazine). Amazing isn't it?

yeah, and i know someone who knows some jews, blacks and gays. so i guess we all cool

I ocasionally receive mails from an Iranian woman who leads a Human Rights organization in Canada that fights for Women's Rights (and against the lack of rights that women have in Muslim countries). She contacted me, not the opposite. Deal with it.

As to "racism", in the past I pissed some WNs enough to receive death threats. Death threats through the internet are worth little or nothing (the Armanious family might have a different opinion, though). I don't think they were serious, but the fact is that I received them.

To put it in other words, you will have to do better than your usual "racist/islamophobic/hateful" argument.

[alex221166]

By the way, Adam I asked you

Have you ever heard of Wahabism?

to which you replied

yes, and i'm sure i know a lot more about it than u. so what.

You know what? I believe you.

[Adam]

Dear Alex

u insult everyone with red-herrings, half-truths and manufactured arguments. If u want to hate Islam and the majority of Muslims then do so, theres no need for abusive and entirely irrelevant rantings.

Moron: I am Portuguese and I was among the hundreds of thousands of Portuguese who marched for the freedom of East Timor. As the former colonizer we got a lot more media coverage over here than anywhere else. Needless to say, you don't have a f*cking clue about what you are saying.

How does yr personal and clearly emotional interest in the East Timor situation disprove a singe thing I’ve said, no less prove your false assertion that the conflict was proof of a global (pseudo) Islamist terrorist threat to the west? It doesn’t.

Did I deny the Indonesian army was involved? On the contrary, I cited the un-islamicness and anti-islamicness of the army (that includes your General Wiranto) that fought the east timorese to refute your islamophobic lie.

Sure, I could reverse the religion and have catholics hunting down Muslims. Fortunately for you, that hasn't happened anywhere in the world since the Austrians kicked the Turk out of the gates of Vienna.

the War Crimes tribunal has prosecuted many cathloics for hunting down muslims in Bosnia. Open your heart to the truth and the truth shall set u free.

I said: "fyi, Islam was the majority religion in Mindanao (South Philipines) well b4 Christinaity. so it din't get big enough. it was always bigger." To which u reply:

So f*ckign what?

U’r hilarious. u start out by claiming “Phillipines: Just another example of what happens when a Muslim minority gets big enough” and when I contradict your lie, u come back with: "So f*ckign what?"

So, don’t lie in the first place! DUH!

Then I hope you will agree that the Jews are entitled to Israel (and to the Palestinian Authority territories), because most "Palestinians" are nothing more than the descendents of 19th century Arab settlers.

The Jewish claim to Israel can be easily refuted on a number of levels. Religious, racial, historical, democratic. As for the Islamic point of view: the Jews denied the Messiah, Jesus, whom He sent to them and so they lost favour with Him. They also refused to return to God’s Grace with the advent of Muhammad and Islam which defended Mary of the slander they threw upon her (i.e. that she fornicated and Jesus was her bastard result – and with God we seek refuge from such a blasphemy). So their claim that God gave them the land is nullified the moment you acknowledge their denial and intended murder of His Prophets (or son, as the Christian believes).

But for the non-religious, the democratic argument suffices: the voice and human rights of an entire nation of Palestinians was whole-salely denied them when they were murdered, persecuted and driven from their homes by the occupying (as opposed to the already-present and peaceful) Jews.

and that is why they received money, weaponry and volunteers from such anti-fundamentalist countries like Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. The UÇK was a terrorist organisation. It was about as "liberating" as the the Inquisition was "Holy".

yet another red-herring. The Kosovo cause did indeed recieve volunteer Muslim fighters. They also recieved Marxists, western mercenaries and a whole host of people who had a beef with the Serbs or otherwise felt the Kosovars were being oppressed (which of course the general population most certianly was). That does not change the fact that the KLA/UÇK was inherently anti-Islamist.

As for calling the KLA a terrorist organisation, then u ought to know it is one that had the support of the EU and the US.

That can only be expected from a religion that always puts the blame on others.

U most be confusing Christianity for Islam bcos the former is built upon the concept of original sin: God blames Adam, Adam blames Eve, Eve blames the serpeant and all women r made to suffer as a result. If u want, I’ll quote u the Catholic church fathers.

Just like I also made up the murder/slaughter of a Coptic family in New Jersey.

Oh and this is proof of your so-called global islamic intolerance and terrorism? U know, a few people die every day in america. Most of them were probably baptised Christians at birth, are familar with one or two points of biblical dogma, have members of their family attend church, etc. so is this proof of Christianity’s murderous intent?

Hey. Maybe u slughtered those Copts! U’r Portugese right. The Portugese have a history of exterminating whole loads of humanity through genocide, slavery and disease. Maybe that explains yr islamophobia too. After all, Vaso de Gamo had a tendancy to burn ships full of men, women and children making pilgrimage to Mecca.

u'r in the blame game dude, not us.

My imagination is so fertile, that even though the murderers of Margaret Hassan were in such a hurry because the Americans invaded Fallujah (it was America's fault wasn't it?), the Jihadists still had time to torture her and disembowling her body (find the details at FrontPage Magazine). Amazing isn't it?

Its not so much yr amazing imagination but yr deception that’s truly shocking. I told u (and u didn’t thank me, cheeky), according to independent western media, Margaret was murdered by a criminal gang demanding ransom, not the jihadists who demanded her release. Yet, u insist upon yr lie. And even suggest we view the gory details so that it increae us in our hate of a people who weren’t even responsible.

as for Frontpage magazine: super Zionist and Ultra neo-Con. this is as far away from open-minded objective, apolitical journalism as u can get in the west.

I hope u realise, the more u say, the more u prove the reality of your Junk History.

[deuceswild]

Oh and this is proof of your so-called global islamic intolerance and terrorism? U know, a few people die every day in america. Most of them were probably baptised Christians at birth, are familar with one or two points of biblicla dogma, have members of their family attend church, etc. so is this proof of Christianity’s murderous intent?

Christians on PalTalk Chat Service Tracked by Radical Islamic Web Site

BY DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS - Special to the Sun
January 31, 2005

A radical Islamic Web site systematically tracks Christians on PalTalk.com, an Internet chat service on which a New Jersey man received a death threat two months before he and his family were murdered. The password protected Arabic Web site, at the address www.barsomyat.com, features pictures and information about Christians who have been particularly active in debating Muslims on PalTalk.

One page from barsomyat.com features a group of photographs of a Syrian Christian, "Joseph," who now lives in Canada. Barsomyat.com's users have posted personal information about Joseph, including his brother's parole status, and make clear that they are actively trying to track down his current address.

Subscribers also post explicit warnings to Joseph. One comment states, "Know, oh Christian, that you are not far from us and you are under our watchful eyes!" Another user remarks, "Laugh, oh Christian, and soon you will see a big hit."

Ahmed Paul, an Egyptian Christian and a theology student in America, said he believes Joseph was targeted because he frequently engaged in debates with Muslims on PalTalk. The Internet chat service attracts up to 3 million users a month, and subjects range from movies to music to religion to adult topics - and some Arabic-speaking users of PalTalk have reported that contentious debates between Christians and Muslims are common in certain chat rooms.

Hossam Armanious, a Coptic Christian from Jersey City, N.J., who was found murdered earlier this month, frequently debated with Muslims on PalTalk. Two months before Armanious's murder, authorities said he received a death threat from a Muslim PalTalk user: "You'd better stop this bull ... or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you." On January 14, Armanious and his family - including two daughters, ages 15 and 8 - were found killed in their Jersey City home, bound and gagged with their throats slashed.

Authorities have not determined whether Islamic extremists are to blame for the Armanious family's murder, nor is there any apparent link between the murder and barsomyat.com's tracking of Christians on PalTalk. However, many barsomyat.com users expressed jubilation at the deaths.

One user posted a photograph of Hossam Armanious and wrote, "This is a picture of the filthy dog, curser of Muhammad, and a photo of his filthy wife, curser of Muhammad. They got what they deserved for their actions in America."

In all, about 40 different discussion threads on barsomyat.com berate the Christians of PalTalk, and there are at least seven collections of photographs of PalTalk Christians. The barsomyat.com discussion threads seem to focus on Arabic-speaking Christians rather than those who speak English.

Barsomyat.com features not only photographs of the targeted Christians, but also attempts to track down their addresses. A post about a Christian man whose computer was apparently hacked to obtain his photograph includes the man's PalTalk name, his real name, and the city where he resides in Lebanon.

Another barsomyat.com entry outlines the relations (both blood and marital) between four Christians who are apparently PalTalk users, posts photographs of them, and then states, "We have postponed publishing this information because there is a lot more to be revealed when the time is right."

Even barsomyat.com's banner displays its hatred of Christians. The banner displays a crucifix crossed out by a violent red "X," and the main heading reads in Arabic, "Christians: Revealing the Truth Behind Our Belief."

Judging by the posts, almost all of barsomyat.com's users are Middle Eastern, and they are predominantly Egyptian. Mr. Paul said that's significant because the extremists on barsomyat.com live in societies where people simply do not challenge Islam and would never dream of insulting Prophet Muhammad.

Mr. Paul, who is an Islamic convert to Christianity, said when Islamic radicals from such societies participate in Internet debates with Christians who live in societies that promote free speech, they are often shocked by the Christians' arguments and view their debating opponents as blasphemers. And in the eyes of Islamic extremists, blasphemers are worthy of death.

Author Robert Spencer, who has been following the Armanious case for his Web site Jihad Watch, described barsomyat.com as "extremely important" after it was shown to him.

"I have never seen anything like this before," Mr. Spencer said. "It's chilling to see photographs of people who probably have no idea that they're on the Web site. Hamas's Web site would post self-congratulatory accounts of their attacks on civilians, but barsomyat.com's users are telegraphing their intended victims in advance."

Mr. Spencer added that barsomyat.com is a "prime example" of how some Islamic extremists can utilize technology to attempt to bring Islamic religious law to the West.

"We saw in the Theo van Gogh murders that some Muslims will take these kinds of matters into their own hands," Mr. Spencer said. "The Internet makes it easier for them to do so by disseminating this kind of information. You could imagine 15 years ago how hard it would be for people to get this much information on people who they believe should be killed."

Barsomyat.com is registered to Viza-Web Inc., a Web hosting company based in Woodbury, Minn.

www.nysun.com/article/8455

Let me guess...it's all part of a neo-con conspiracy right?