Is Islam an insult to Christianity?

[Brasidas]

Look there are always going to be examples of extremist fundamentals, wether Chrisitian, Muslim, Jewish or even pagans, that show hatred towards other group that don't believe like they do. THERE IS A REASON WHY THEY CALL THEM EXTREMISTS!!! Non-Extremists won't behave in that manner. Believe it or not, ALL FUNDAMENTALISTS ARE THE SAME, no matter what beliefs they hold. What makes them the same is their willingness to KILL for their beliefs or those who believe differently.

Just because you can post examples of Muslims targeting Christians or vice-versa, it does not mean they ALL believe the same way. A good example of people of the same religion killing each other; The foreign Fundamental Islamists fighters in Iraq that are blowing up Iraqis(other Muslims!!!) Or how about what has been occuring in Ireland for several hundred years now. (Catholics and Prodestants killing each other). Why doesn't everyone start looking at people as individuals instead of lumping everyone into groups?? A religion doesn't make someone EVIL, what makes them evil is how they interpret that religion.

I can't believe how much ignorance and hatred is happening in this world Has everyone forgot about TOLERANCE and understanding?? Ignorance which leads to hatred is the cause of all the problems in the world, nothing else. So please take your heads out of your A**es.

Peace to all and to unity of all of mankind, no matter what they believe. After all we are ALL HUMANS!!

[alex221166]

Peace to all and to unity of all of mankind, no matter what they believe. After all we are ALL HUMANS!!

It would be excellent if optimism and good intentions were enough to head the world in the right direction. Unfortunately, water doesn't always put out fire.

Hitler had a ball at Munich while Neville Chamberlain played the fool. After the 911, the 311, Bali, USS Cole and so many other attacks, I am afraid that we are running out of cheeks.

[alex221166]

My last post to you Adam: you fit perfectly the description of a Muslim apologist. You don't say anything and you put the blame on others of both sun and rain. Like I said, it doesn't work - not with me, in any case.

I wasn't even going to bother to answer to your bullshit, but I found apropriate entries at Jihad Watch that will serve as a good-enough answer.

Islam is the final revelation, therefore those believing in it submit to Allah—the only One worthy of obedience in every sphere of life. To understand 9/11, we must go back to Tawhid— the exclusive worship of God in every sphere—religious, political, social, etc. Every human action must relate to this. 9/11 was undoubtedly an unpleasant moment for its targets or their relatives (Muslims and non-Muslim), but those committing it acted as a result of the predestined divine decree (although God does give man free will).
The "Magnificent 19" or "terrorists" are personally accountable for their actions. If these were based on God's commands, they will be rewarded; if against his commands, they will be punished.

The 19 referred to a divine text, Surah AL-Baqara 2:190: "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you … " Muslims believe that non-Muslims are kaffir—those disbelieving in Islam. This is not an insult; it is a description. The God in whom we believe did not come from the womb of a mother. The USA is a kaffir state—and kaffir includes those U.S. Muslims who ally with non-Muslims, e.g. in the U.S. Army, as in Iraq, and are therefore legitimate targets of jihad.

The above was spoken by a Muslim. What follows was written by Spencer.

Like other Islamic apologists I have encountered, including some professed "moderates," Alam seems to prefer to characterize -- falsely -- any opposition to his views as personal attacks on him, rather than to address their substance in any way. His supporters are thus enflamed to respond to attacks on his "free speech," as he encourages them to do today at CounterPunch, but no notice is taken of the genuine questions raised by his writings. And certainly no attempt is made to engage in the "dialogue" so ballyhooed by his ilk.

All this is just a variant of the tactic used by American Muslim advocacy groups: smear as "Islamophobic" anyone who dares raise uncomfortable questions, thus attempting to rule the questions themselves out of the realm of acceptable discourse. If Shahid Alam succeeds in characterizing those who question his views as rabid hatemongers who are raving and threatening him, he will effectively silence them -- and certainly make the mainstream media afraid to question him.

By the way, I don't hate Muslims - I pity them. As someone who cherishes Democracy, I do, however, hate Islam.

[asdf]

I hate to make him sound like a crackpot, but my Grandfather used to tell a long story; in part of it he mentioned Mohamed was nothing but a wannabe Jew. I They wouldn't let him in because he was Arab (makes sense so far), so he created Islam.

[Adam]

Falsely labeling me as an apologist does not substantiate your arguments in the least. If i were an apologist, I'd make excuses or justifications for the extremists. But I do not. I condemn them because the Islamic texts condemn them. But because your kind hate Islam, as you have finally admitted (thank you – but if u'd been honest from the outset, I wouldn't have wasted time replying), which of course explains y u hate anyone who follows, is sympathetic to or tolerant of Islam, you demonise all Muslims as pro-terrorist, anti-west or apologist.

As for the "Magnificent 19" quote from your Zionist website, this was taken from the well known pro-9/11 reaction of the British-based extremist group "al-Muhajirun". This group is on the lunatic fringe of Islam and was openly reviled, attacked, and refuted by British Muslim and non-Muslim society. As a matter of fact, the group's anti-Islamicness was exposed so well by Muslims that it imploded and has now officially disbanded.

You can find a lot more heinous statements made in the name of Islam by groups like the former al-muhajirun, but to use them for political gain (if that’s the game u want to play) will not advance your cause in anything. On the contrary, the intelligent person will readily see that u and your Mr. Spencer r deliberately misrepresenting Islam and consider u the more dangerous extremist and the real hate monger.

As for deuce's web quote:

"when Islamic radicals from such societies participate in Internet debates with Christians who live in societies that promote free speech, they are often shocked by the Christians' arguments and view their debating opponents as blasphemers. And in the eyes of Islamic extremists, blasphemers are worthy of death"

then this borders on the comical.

Almost every Muslim, even the generally ignorant non-practicing variety, is very familiar with the Christian's "blasphemous" arguments. This is because the Qur'an clearly mentions and answers many of them. No belief of the Christian is more blasphemous than to claim that God became incarnate as a man, as part of a trinity, and was murdered/crucified.

And they (the Christians) say: ‘The Most Merciful (Allah) has begotten a son.’ Indeed, you have brought forth a heinous thing. The heavens are almost torn apart, the earth split asunder and the mountains felled in utter ruin that they (dare) ascribe a son to The Most Merciful. It is not befitting (the Majesty of) The Most Merciful that He should beget a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth except that it comes before The Most Merciful as a slave. (Qur’an, 19:88-93)

Yet how does the Qur'an ask its reader to respond? To kill all Christians for this blasphemy of theirs? By no means.

The Quran actually praises Christians as being close to the Truth and having righteous scholars amongst them. Read for yourself how the Muslim is required to deal with the Christian's blasphemy. Firstly, there is a general injunction to be gentle and considerate in debating with non-Muslims:

Invite (mankind) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided. (Qur'an, 16:125)

And regards Christians specifically…<br>
O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not go to extremes in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Trinity!" Cease! (That would be) better for you. For Allah is (but) One Deity. Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (Qur'an, 4:71)

Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you: that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah." Then, if they (the People of the Book) turn away, say: "(At least then) bear witness that we are Muslims, bowing to His Will." (Qur'an, 3:64)

And (relate) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus son of Mary! Did you say unto men: "Worship me and my mother as gods besides Allah?" He (Jesus) will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner self though I do not know what is in Yours. Truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen. Never did I say to them aught except what You commanded me: "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them (i.e. the Christians), they are Your slaves. And if You forgive them (i.e. the Christians), verily You, only You are the All Mighty, the All Wise." (Qur'an, 5:116-118)

Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers are the Jews and the idolators. And you will find the nearest in love to the believers are those who say: "We are Christians." That is because amongst them are (God-fearing) priests and monks, and they are not proud. And when they (who call themselves Christians) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad), you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognised. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth? And we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous." (Qur'an, 5:82-84)

Heres how Islam answers the Christian's blasphemous argument that Jesus must have been divine as he was born of a virgin birth:

Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him (Adam) from dust saying to him: "Be!" - and he was. (Qur'an, 3:59)

In other words, the Qur'an calls the Chrisitian to reflect and ask him/herself: if Jesus is God because he had no father, then what of Adam who had neither father nor mother?!

Consider also this simple argument against the divinity of either Jesus or his mother:

The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother (Mary) was a truthful, righteous believer. And they both ate food (i.e. while God is in no need of food)! Look how We make the signs clear to them, yet look how they are (still) deluded away (from the truth)! (Qur'an, 5:75)

Thus, its clear from the above that Islam does not call on its adherants to slaughter the Christian for his blasphemous arguments, but instead requires them to have dialogue, to non-violently point out the contradictions, irrationality and polytheisitc nature of his beliefs, and to ultimately unite upon the truth of the montheistic unity of God. That is the reality. Not spin or apologetics, but the priciples of Islam as codified in what all Muslims consider to be the bona fide Word of God. And anything which opposes this is automatically considered a going astray and extremism.

Of course, if the Muslims wanted to, they could have killed all the Christians and Jews under their rule. But instead we find many a persecuted Christian church (and entire tribes of Jews) finding refuge within the tolerant Muslim world. That there are some 6 million Coptic Christians living in Egypt, peacefully co-existing and marrying with their Muslim neighbours, utterly shatters the lies these Zionist sites are trying to spread.

Anyway, as Alex has finally admitted his hatred of Islam, theres no need to chase his wind anymore.

There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has truly become distinct from the wrong. (Qur'an, 2:256)

[alex221166]

I condemn them because the Islamic texts condemn them.

Please present evidence that the Islamic texts condemn terrorism or any sort of abuse against non-Muslims. If you do find anything - and since Islamic texts is what we are talking about, then I will present all the Islamic texts THAT DO support terrorism.

But because your kind hate Islam

My kind? What would that be? Europeans fed up with all the extremism that has been imported into our continent without our consent? Democrats who see their enlightened form of government threatened by people that demand tolerance for their barbarism while they preach intolerance?

, as you have finally admitted (thank you – but if u'd been honest from the outset, I wouldn't have wasted time replying), which of course explains y u hate anyone who follows, is sympathetic to or tolerant of Islam, you demonise all Muslims as pro-terrorist, anti-west or apologist.

I do not demonise all Muslims and I certainly don't think all of them to be pro-terrorist (although most Saudis would fit that description), but yes, most Muslims are anti-western. This isn't rocket science, since the west stands for many values which are seen as non-Muslim.

As a matter of fact, the group's anti-Islamicness was exposed so well by Muslims that it imploded and has now officially disbanded.

The group is so anti-Islamic that it quotes (and defends its views) basing itself on Islamic texts. In case you didn't notice.

You can find a lot more heinous statements made in the name of Islam by groups like the former al-muhajirun,

No, I can find lots of quotes in the Koran and in the Hadith, and I can find lots of historical events - both recent and ancient - that support the views that Islam is a dangerous cult which while defending solidarity between Muslims, also defends hatred and imperialistic aggression against non-Muslims. In many ways, it is a fascist religion which resorts to the use of hatred and scapegoats because it can't deliver.

On the contrary, the intelligent person will readily see that u and your Mr. Spencer r deliberately misrepresenting Islam and consider u the more dangerous extremist and the real hate monger.

Yes, I am the one spreading hatred for exposing the truth for what it is.

I do not tolerate intolerance. I do not have any respect for those that don't respect me. And I will definitely not show the other cheek.

As to your post concerning Christians and Jews and there being no compulsion of religion:

On Non-Moslems [Top]

Koran 009.073
O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers [non-Moslems] and the Hypocrites and be unyielding to them.

Arabic: Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu jahidi al-kuffara waalmunafiqeena waoghluth AAalayhim wama/wahum jahannamu wabi/sa almaseeru


Koran 047.004
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers [non-Moslems], smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are ye commanded: but if it had been Allah"s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them Himself; but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Arabic: Fa-itha laqeetumu allatheena kafaroo fadarba alrriqabi hatta itha athkhantumoohum fashuddoo alwathaqa fa-imma mannan baAAdu wa-imma fidaan hatta tadaAAa alharbu awzaraha thalika walaw yashao Allahu laintasara minhum walakin liyabluwa baAAdakum bibaAAdin waallatheena qutiloo fee sabeeli Allahi falan yudilla aAAmalahum sayahdeehim wayuslihu balahum


Koran 005.033
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Arabic: Min ajli thalika katabna AAala banee isra-eela annahu man qatala nafsan bighayri nafsin aw fasadin fee al-ardi fakaannama qatala alnnasa jameeAAan waman ahyaha fakaannama ahya alnnasa jameeAAan walaqad jaat-hum rusuluna bialbayyinati thumma inna katheeran minhum baAAda thalika fee al-ardi lamusrifoona


Koran 008.012
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers[non-Moslems]: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.'

Arabic: Ith yoohee rabbuka ila almala-ikati annee maAAakum fathabbitoo allatheena amanoo saolqee fee quloobi allatheena kafaroo alrruAAba faidriboo fawqa al-aAAnaqi waidriboo minhum kulla bananin


Koran 002.190-1
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you... And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then kill them; such is the recompense of the Unbelievers[non-Moslems].

Arabic: Waqatiloo fee sabeeli Allahi allatheena yuqatiloonakum wala taAAtadoo inna Allaha la yuhibbu almuAAtadeena ... Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena


Koran 009.005
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and kill the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Arabic: Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumu faoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohum waohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadin fa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalata waatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun


Koran 009.029
Kill those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Arabic: Qatiloo allatheena la yu/minoona biAllahi wala bialyawmi al-akhiri wala yuharrimoona ma harrama Allahu warasooluhu wala yadeenoona deena alhaqqi mina allatheena ootoo alkitaba hatta yuAAtoo aljizyata AAan yadin wahum saghiroona

[alex221166]

More

And finally, not content with reading Qur’an and Hadith and sira, those Infidels have embarked on learning about the history of Jihad-conquest of those vast lands where, far more numerous, settled, wealthy, and advanced populations, of Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and Buddhists all lived and, upon conquest, when not killed or forcibly converted at once to Islam, were permitted to live as “dhimmis,” as non-Muslims under Muslim rule were called, subject to carefully elaborated financial, legal, political, and social disabilities that made life for them one of humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity.

It has been quite an effort to prevent Infidels from getting the wrong (that is to say, the right) impression of Islam, at least until such time as Muslims in the West currently singing the praises of “pluralism” no longer have need for Infidel good will and tolerance. To date, the twin techniques of “Taqiyya” and Tu-Quoque have been relied on. “Taqiyya” is the religiously-sanctioned doctrine, with its origins in Shi’a Islam but now practiced by non-Shi’a as well, of deliberate dissimulation about religious matters that may be undertaken to protect Islam, and the Believers. A related term, of broader application, is “kitman,” which is defined as “mental reservation.” An example of “Taqiyya” would be the insistence of a Muslim apologist that “of course” there is freedom of conscience in Islam, and then quoting that Qur’anic verse -- “There shall be no compulsion in religion.” But the impression given will be false, for there has been no mention of the Muslim doctrine of abrogation, or naskh, whereby such an early verse as that about “no compulsion in religion” has been cancelled out by later, far more intolerant and malevolent verses. In any case, history shows that within Islam there is, and always has been, “compulsion in religion” for Muslims, and for non-Muslims. The “compulsion” for Muslims comes from the treatment of apostasy as an act punishable by death. And though “dhimmis” are allowed to practice their religion, they do so under conditions of such burdens and restrictions that many, not as an act of conscience but rather as a response to inexorable Muslim pressure, have converted (or “reverted”) to Islam.

“Kitman” is close to “taqiyya,” but rather than outright dissimulation, it consists in telling only a part of the truth, with “mental reservation” justifying the omission of the rest. One example may suffice. When a Muslim maintains that “jihad” really means “a spiritual struggle,” and fails to add that this definition is a recent one in Islam (little more than a century old), he misleads by holding back, and is practicing “kitman.” When he adduces, in support of this doubtful proposition, the hadith in which Muhammad, returning home from one of his many battles, is reported to have said (as known from a chain of transmitters, or isnad), that he had returned from “the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad” and does not add what he also knows to be true, that this is a “weak” hadith, regarded by the most-respected muhaddithin as of doubtful authenticity, he is further practicing “kitman.”<br>
The use of the word in Qur’an and Hadith, and constantly through 1350 years of Muslim history, has certainly endowed the word “Jihad” with a meaning of struggle, usually through military means, to expand the domain of Islam. Almost all Muslims understand that “warfare” (qital, qatala) is the essential meaning of the word. But Infidels, who prefer to think otherwise, have eagerly snapped up little guides such as that put out a few years ago by Karen Armstrong, a compleat apologist and no scholar of Islam, who made sure to quote that hadith in support of her proposition that Jihad is a “spiritual struggle.” The meaning of words comes from their common and accepted usage, not from what someone wishes to convince us should, for the purpose of a temporarily comforting harmony, be believed to be the meaning.

Jihad as military conquest is of course discussed in the Qur’an and Hadith, and in the commentaries on the Qur’an. And while “qital” or combat is mentioned 27 times in the Qur’an, other instruments of Jihad are also commonly discussed; any Islamic website will provide examples. One is the use of “wealth” to create the conditions that will help to spread Islam. Another is the use of “pen, speech” – persuasion, propaganda -- to spread Islam. Still another instrument of Jihad discussed, for example, in the pages of Muslim newspapers, is the use of demography as a weapon of Jihad. Muslim populations within the Bilad al-kufr, or Lands of the Infidels, are seen as helping to spread through Da’wa, the Call to Islam, and in their own increasing presence within Infidel lands, as contributing to the inexorable spread of Islam.

(...)

The Crusades are presented by Muslim apologists as a defining moment in Muslim-Christian relations, a moment in which the peaceful and inoffensive Muslims were attacked, without cause. In this version, not a word is uttered about the centuries of Muslim Jihad-conquest that preceded the Crusades – nearly 400 years of seizing lands formerly occupied by Christians in Mesopotamia, Syria, Egypt, North Africa (where, among other Fathers of the Church, Tertullian and St. Augustine were born and lived).

Nor is what prompted the Crusades ever mentioned. For in 1009 A.D. the Fatimid Caliph Hakim had ordered the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and for almost a century the Muslims steadily made encroachments on the Christian presence in, and access to, what was for Western Christendom the Holy Land. And there were, for a thousand years, until the 19th century, a constant series of Muslim raiding-parties that came by sea, and attacked the coastal villages throughout Europe, as far as Ireland and even, in one instance, Iceland. Villages were razed, and many villagers killed, and a million European Christians were kidnapped (see the recent White Gold, by Giles Milton), brought back to dar al-Islam, enslaved, and often forcibly converted. The Crusades have to be understood in their full context.

[alex221166]

No compulsion in religion? Why wonder why Muslims in Britain aren't aware of that:

THE first brick was thrown through the sitting room window at one in the morning, waking Nissar Hussein, his wife and five children with a terrifying start. The second brick went through his car window.
It was a shock, but hardly a surprise. The week before, another brick had been thrown through the window as the family were preparing for bed in their Bradford home. The victim of a three-year campaign of religious hatred, Mr Hussein’s car has also been rammed and torched, and the steps to his home have been strewn with rubbish.

He and his family have been regularly jostled, abused, attacked, shouted at to move out of the area, and given death threats in the street. His wife has been held hostage inside their home for two hours by a mob. His car, walls and windows have been daubed in graffiti: “Christian bastard”.

The problem isn’t so much what Mr Hussein, whose parents came from Pakistan, believes, but what he doesn’t believe. Born into Islam, he converted eight years ago to Christianity, and his wife, also from Pakistan, followed suit.

While those who convert to Islam, such as Cat Stevens, Jemima Khan, and the sons of the Frank Dobson, the former Health Secretary, and Lord Birt, the former BBC Director-General, can publicly celebrate their new religion, those whose faith goes in the other direction face persecution. Mr Hussein, a 39-year-old hospital nurse in Bradford, is one of a growing number of former Muslims in Britain who face not just being shunned by family and community, but attacked, kidnapped, and in some cases killed. There is even a secret underground network to support and protect those who leave Islam. One estimate suggests that as many as 15 per cent of Muslims in Western societies have lost their faith, which would mean that in Britain there are about 200,000 apostates.

For police, religious authorities and politicians, it is an issue so sensitive that they are accused by victims of refusing to respond to appeals for help. It is a problem that, with the crisis of identity in Islam since September 11, seems to be getting worse as Muslims feel more threatened

[zeljko]

Alex, I am from Kosovo (Mitrovica), you seriously know shit about KOSOVO.

When mujahidins came to Kosovo they were immediately returned by UCK, UCK told them: this war is our war not a war between ISLAM & CHRISTIANS.
Hence you had volunteers in UCK from Albania who were ORTHODOX and who fought against SERB ORTHODOX (who i belong too).

Albanian are hyper nationalism, they hate ISLAM, one of their most appreciated figure is gjeorgi (i dont remember his name exactly) but who rejected islam after he was introduced to it in the 16th century by turk and was recognized as a turk leader, however he rejected islam and deserted turks when he discovered his albanian ancestry.

Alex, get to know history before...

and yes, the sad truth is that albanians have been in the balkans thousands of years before serbs arrived.

[alex221166]

zeljko said:

Alex, I am from Kosovo (Mitrovica), you seriously know shit about KOSOVO.

When mujahidins came to Kosovo they were immediately returned by UCK, UCK told them: this war is our war not a war between ISLAM & CHRISTIANS.
Hence you had volunteers in UCK from Albania who were ORTHODOX and who fought against SERB ORTHODOX (who i belong too).

Albanian are hyper nationalism, they hate ISLAM, one of their most appreciated figure is gjeorgi (i dont remember his name exactly) but who rejected islam after he was introduced to it in the 16th century by turk and was recognized as a turk leader, however he rejected islam and deserted turks when he discovered his albanian ancestry.

Alex, get to know history before...

and yes, the sad truth is that albanians have been in the balkans thousands of years before serbs arrived.

1) Yes, I don't know much about Kosovo. What I do know is what has been reported my the Portuguese and by the international media; I knew enough to know that NATO was making a terrible mistake by turning Serbia into the big bad wolf.

2) For some reason I doubt your words about the UÇK refusing help from the Saudis; the Bosnian Muslims didn't refuse Saudi and Iranian help and from what I know neither did the Kosovar Albanians. What the UÇK leadership admits to is worthless and meaningless, especially because that same leadership was involved in everything from terrorism, to prostitution, drugs and arms smuggling.

3) As far as I am concerned, Santa Claus could be an Albanian Muslim and Rudolph the raindeer could be from Kosovo: I honestly don't give a f*ck. What I do give a f*ck is that what happened in Kosovo and what is about to happen in Kosovo (independence) is wrong and it is a sign of what may expect several European countries in a matter of decades.

Like I said, I couldn't care less about Kosovo, it is not my problem - it is Serbia's, and I am not a Serbian.

PS: The issue is not if the Albanians were here before the Serbs. The issue is that Kosovo is a Serbian province, its demography has changed in the last couple of hundreds of years thanks to Albanian immigration and high birth rates, and now that province is being stolen from Serbia. If I were Serbian, I would be pissed. Since I am not, all I can and will do is say what I believe to be true based on what I have heard and read.

[Adam]

Alex

all of the Qur'anic verses you quoted - with the exception of 5:33 - are in the context of the wars the pagan arabs waged upon the small Muslim community.
u don't even have to read the full context as this can be gauged from the verses themseleves:

"... when THE WAR lays down its burden..."

"...fight those WHO FIGHT YOU..."

etc.

in other words, the Muslim has the right to not turn the other cheek, but can respond in kind.

and u will find many similar verses in the bible calling for fighting and killing the enemy. in fact, the biblical verses even demand the slaughter of innocents: women, children and animals!

the difference with the Quran is that it calls for equity (fighting only the active combatants), justice (always taking the side of the oppressed against the oppressor - whether Muslim or non-Muslim), leniancy and to seek to hault the war in favour of peace.

and i've already posted you the link for Islam's stance on terrorism. read it again:

quran.nu/pdf/PDF.asp?id=Islamic_Terrorism_Exploded

as for 5:33, this verse was revealed after a group of men who were entrusted by the Prophet to seek the company of a shepheard, actually murdered that shepheard (and his family, as i recall) and stole his heard.

so none of these verses demand the wanton killing of non-Muslims just because they are non-Muslims. and if this was so, there would be no people living today from Spain to India, from the horn of Africa to Siberia - as all these lands were full of non-Muslims when the Muslims arrived.

i believe i have provided sufficient remarks from western scholarship regarding the tolerance and benevolance of the Muslim conquerers and evidence of Islamic tolerance towards non-Muslims in general.
i could provide much more and also continue to rebut your hostile zionist revionist sources but, as your own extremism, intolerance and hatred is clear, i hope and expect that most readers will make up their own minds.

in closing though, just to give y'all an indication of just how dishonest and deceptive alex and his extremist, sterotypical Islam-demonising Jewish and zionist sources are, let me briefly answer one allegation.

alex quoted about how a Fatimid Caliph wanted to destroy the Church of the Holy Seplecure - Christianity's holiest shrine, which i have visited btw. the fact that the church remains asks more questions than it answers: why is the Church still there? and why was it not destroyed much earlier when the Muslims first took Jerusalem? for example

the fact is that when the Caliph and Companion of the Prophet, Umar, entered Jerusalem as its triumphant conquerer, he visited the Church of the Holy Seplecure but declined from praying inside because, as he said, he did not want to give other Muslims after him an excuse to confiscate the shrine and turn it into a mosque. so he instead prayed outside in the adjacent courtyard which summarily had "The Mosque of Umar" built upon it (i've visited their also).

As for the Fatimid ruler centuries later, he and the Fatimids in general are not considered Muslims but a heretical cult (for they held that a relative of Muhammad was God incarnate). that the Fatimid ruler sought to level the Church of the holy Seplecure is a proof of his extremism and break from the islamic norm.

and guess what? the famous Salah-ud-Din (or Saladin in Latin) was sent by his uncle to crush the Fatimid state, liberate the people of Egypt and restore the country to tolerant, orthodox Muslim rule. it was only after he secured Egypt from the Fatimid heretics that Saladin took on the Crusaders in his celebrated struggle and in which all historians praise his merciful dealings and magnanimity.

incidentally the Fatimids even sought to and did indeed defile the Kaba in Mecca, Islam's holiest shrine, by breaking it and stealing from it its famous "Black Stone", carrying it back to Cairo. funny how Alex's zionists ommited that isn't it?

[molika]

Adam what do you say about the fact that there are so many prophecies concerning Jesus, yet none for Muhammad? When you look at Jesus and Muhammad you can clearly see the difference in teachings, Jesus ALWAYS said turn the other cheek. Jesus said that if you have hate in your heart for your brother that is the SAME as murder. In Islam, as you said, there are circumstances where hate and murder are completely justified.

"...compare Jesus and His teachings to that of Muhammad. Jesus' birth was foretold in hundreds of prophecies. Muhammad has no prophecies foretelling his birth or mission. Muhammad was born of the natural union of a human father and mother while Jesus was born of supernatural circumstances. Jesus lived a sinless life (2 Cor 5:21) and is considered sinless by the Qur'an (called an all-Righteous one). Muhammad, however was someone who needed forgiveness for his faults (sura 40:55,41:19). Jesus performed many miracles to substantiate His claim (Luke 7:22), but nowhere in the Qur'an does it state that Muhammad performed any miracles. None of Jesus' enemies could find any fault with Him, but even the Qur'an states that Muhammad took his son Zaid's wife from him (sura 33:36-38). Finally, Muhammad is dead today. His grave is in Medina. Jesus is alive forever. He ascended to the right hand of the Father." L. Esposito

I wish you success in your search for truth.

[Berter]

molika said:

I wish you success in your search for truth.

Whats Veritas, Sister Molika !? ...purposeless life!

[molika]

You are on your own with that one brother Berter.

[Berter]

molika said:

You are on your own with that one brother Berter.

You sound like a converted woman (Islam---Christianity)!? Is malika your real name !?

I'm mathematician (un dure, tu imagines un peu !, ), and believe me when I tell you this :

If the coran is wrong, then so is the bible; There is a logical 'dominance' of the former over the later, which is consistant with what the christians thought about the Coran (a Bible-based book writen by Mohammed); The man had time to study the biblic stories and to refine them. Hence the 'logical dominance' of his book (Coran) .