Is Islam an insult to Christianity?

[Adam]

JUNK HISTORY part 2 of 2

There are other items for my Christian friends to consider here as well.

-In many Muslim countries, it is illegal to profane the name of Jesus or of his Blessed Mother. Further, one should consider that in several countries within the Christian West, movies made depicting Jesus in a blasphemous way have been shut down because of the public outrage exhibited by, not the Christians, but the Muslims.

-The Muslims believe in the Virgin Conception of Christ and venerate his Blessed Mother more so than do most Christians, particularly those of the Protestant faiths.

-The Muslims believe in the miracles of Christ, including his raising of the dead, healing the sick and blind, and that he was [amongst - Adam] the greatest of all Prophets.

-Mohammed, the founder of Islam, considered Christians to be the greatest of friends to the Muslims, for in his words, the Christians were "free from pride, and had priests and monks among them." [This quote is from the Qur'an 5:82, which Muslims believe to be the Word of God, not Muhammad - Adam]

There is enough evidence lying around that even the most barely educated among us should be able to see that this "Islamic hatred of everyone not Islamic" is a sham. The mouthpieces who claim this fail to consider (or reveal) many glaringly obvious pieces of evidence. They would like us to believe that there is something organic about Islam that makes it seek to dominate the "Judeo-Christian" West. So let's just do a short run of some evidence that reveals this as a fallacy.

Firstly, there hasn't been a war between the Muslims and the West for many centuries. Even more importantly, since it was in the US that the attacks of 9/11 happened, consider this: From 1776 until September 11, 2001, there were roughly 10 major wars that involved the US and a foreign power: The American War for Independence, The Quasi War, The War of 1812, The Mexican War, The Spanish American War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf War.

Based on this short list, it looks to me like we were fighting Christian nations, (excepting Iraq, whom we attacked first,) and that we weren't attacked by the Muslims once. True, there was this issue with pirates from Libya attacking American ships after 1776, but it was an issue of piracy, and not an attempt to forcibly convert the nascent American nation to the religion of Mohammed.

Many would say to these things, "So what? The war is over now, what good does it do us to hash over all this now?" To which I would say

1. You're a fool if you think that it is all over. It is just beginning, and

2. Even if it were all over, your reluctance to learn the truth, truth that would have prevented you and the rest of this nation from being conned by a bunch of propagandists is nothing more than an attempt to hide your willful ignorance, as well as an attempt to pretend that you had nothing to do with the prosecution of an illegal and imperialist war that has wrecked the lives of millions of people today, as well as millions more tomorrow.

So why do we hash over all this now?

Because what people believe leads to policies being enacted, and when people believe lies, as in the case of junk history, disastrous consequences can occur. The fact that we have attacked another nation that has not attacked us, destroyed its government and infrastructure, laid waste to its institutions, caused incalculable suffering to innocent men, women, and children, and that one of the pretenses offered in justifying this action was this non-existent war between Islam and the Christian West that began in the 7th century and has gone on ever since should indicate to everyone involved that there is great danger to be found in believing junk history, although, in this case, it would be better to categorize the current propaganda not as junk history, but rather as just plain garbage.

My advice to fellow Christians in the US would be this: Turn off Peter Jennings, Falwell, Robertson, Limbaugh, and Hannity, get yourself a few decent history books, and try thinking for yourself for a change.

------------
Mark Glenn, American and former high school teacher turned writer/commentator, is a frequent contributor to The March Media Resources and other online independent media sources.

[visigodo]

I think the only person overreacting is Mr. Mark Glenn.

The last time I checked neither the U.S., nor the E.U. has declared an all open war on Islam. Nor have they targeted mosques and Mecca as target practice for their smart bombs. What the world is being informed of is of the growing intolerance some Islamic radical groups have towards the west.

I don’t see anything wrong with being informed about radical Islamic groups in Spain that have targeted innocent people, and are still plotting other attacks. I think the people of Holland should be informed of the growing intolerance some groups have against their chosen way of life.

I would say to all, for them not to remain ignorant or burry their heads in the sand. I would rather encourage people to continue to seek all information, and do read history books, and most of all to listen to everyone’s point of views contrary to what Mr. Glenn is encouraging including those you may not agree with. (Including Peter Jennings, Falwell, Robertson, Limbaugh, and Hannity(Not that I’m a fan of these guys which I’am not)…and those who you may not like) To truly gauge, and make rational decisions.

[alexandrian]

www.jihadwatch.org is a website that makes an effort to keep up with evidence of Islamist intolerance. I don't think we should make generalizations about Islam as a religion, as the fundamentalists are a clear minority, at least in Egypt. That said, we can not blind ourselves either for the sake of political correctness.

[Adam]

jihadwatch, like its sister site campuswatch, are not objective information sources. they are unashamedly neo-con websites. both are maintained by fiercly zionistic jews whose targets include western liberals and moderate muslims who do not agree with their own right-wing politics

the very name "jihadwatch" is black propoganada. as if anyone from any mainstream islamic community considers terrorism or terroristic tactics to equate to "jihad". the author of the site knows this all too well.

if the intention is to gauge threats to western civilians, there there is ample imformation in the general, more objective news media.

what these neo-con authors are doing, is taking statements/actions/intentions of the lunatic fringe of Islamists and pseudo-Muslims and giving them such great attention, that the reader is left to think that there is indeed a dangerous and popular global movement seeking to destroy the west.

its like if i were to collect all the statements of far right Christians (e.g. "a good nigger is a dead nigger") or the Jewish right (e.g. "death to all arabs") and then put them on a site called "bibleloverwatch" or "jewwatch" respectively.

for a truer reading on jihad and terrorism, check out:

quran.nu/pdf/PDF.asp?id=Islamic_Terrorism_Exploded

[alex221166]

Adam said:

jihadwatch, like its sister site campuswatch, are not objective information sources. they are unashamedly neo-con websites. both are maintained by fiercly zionistic jews whose targets include western liberals and moderate muslims who do not agree with their own right-wing politics

the very name "jihadwatch" is black propoganada. as if anyone from any mainstream islamic community considers terrorism or terroristic tactics to equate to "jihad". the author of the site knows this all too well.

if the intention is to gauge threats to western civilians, there there is ample imformation in the general, more objective news media.

what these neo-con authors are doing, is taking statements/actions/intentions of the lunatic fringe of Islamists and pseudo-Muslims and giving them such great attention, that the reader is left to think that there is indeed a dangerous and popular global movement seeking to destroy the west.

its like if i were to collect all the statements of far right Christians (e.g. "a good nigger is a dead nigger") or the Jewish right (e.g. "death to all arabs") and then put them on a site called "bibleloverwatch" or "jewwatch" respectively.

for a truer reading on jihad and terrorism, check out:

quran.nu/pdf/PDF.asp?id=Islamic_Terrorism_Exploded

Yes, Jihad Watch is a part of the Great Global Jewish conspiracy against Islam, the Ku Klux Klan, Stalinist Communists and everyone else that has been a victim of international Judaism. I am appalled at the way that international Jewery has managed to convert news sources such as Reuters, AFP, AP, BBC, Daily Telegraph, NY Times, Expatica, France Presse, IslamOnline, Muslim News, Turkish News and many many others, as those sources have been used or have colaborated with that imperialistic Zionistic website in the past.

If you want to learn more about peaceful Islam, just bury your head in the sand and sing "The hills are alive with the sound of music" as you stick a purple feather up your ass.

[Adam]

listen dude, u really ought to calm down and not invent arguments only to knock them down.

firstly, no one said anything about any great global jewish conspiracy - apart from you. international judaism is a matter of religion. what i spoke of was neo-con Zionism, which is a matter of politics and racist politics at that.

you don't have to be a jew to be a zionist, most in america aren't. they are moslty Christian fundamentalists (like Bush). as well as non-religous jews (like pearle, wolfowitz, etc)

neo-cons hate liberal jews. your jihad watch site derides Noam Chomski, for example, who is one of the world's most celebrated academics.

they also attack Norman Finklestein whose book "Holocaust Industry" argues that the real holocaust victims (like his own family) have had their memory hijacked by money-launderers and zionists.

the neo-cons/zionists also have their daggers out for moderate muslims like Cat Stevens (made it to no. 2 in the UK charts last month with his duet with Ronan Keating) who only recently was presented an award by Gorbachov for his humanitarian philanthrapy in front of a crowd attended by the likes of Hollywood Jews like Michael Douglas (who was clapping most enthusiastically).

as for campus watch, its infamous for demonising US universities for being "unpatriotic" simply for tolerating anti-Bush or anti-war activism.

re. quoting from reuters, BBC and the like, of course theres nothing suspect about the quotes themsleves. its how they're selectively spun and packaged by these sites to deliberately misrepresent a wider community. if u read the author's own comments, u'll see his own spin and prejudice more clearly.

fact of the matter is these neo-cons/zionists and the muslim extremists have a lot in common. they are both facistic, vilify those who disagree with their politics, feed of the fear of the peaceful masses, and are very much in favour of war.

the biggest difference between the two though, is that the exagerated scale of the danger of the latter is an invention of the former. hence the need for Glenn's Junk History lesson.

ok alex baby?

[Melnorme]

Haha, the truth is that if neoconservatives were a bit more 'racist', they would have a lot fewer enemies on the right.

A belief in Universal Aptitude For Democracy is the anti-thesis of racism.

[k5125]

I have never been to jihad watch, but I have been to Memri.

I certainly don't think all arabs and muslims believe the way those people on the memri videos do. And I could see how some people might get the wrong idea about Islam and the arabs if they were to watch nothing but memri videos.

However, there has really been no evidence presented to disprove Memri's premise, which is that a sizeable portion of the arab and islamic world (syria, iran, saudi arabia) want Israel driven off the map.

As far as zionism goes, I am for it, as long as its not radical or anti-arab, like Kach, or Kahane Chai.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a good portion of arabs are happy with the state of Israel. Their voices probably aren't heard in the western media. I am not saying this is fact or its a conspiracy. But I just can't believe that all arabs oppose zionsim...like Druze, etc. (not sure if they are arab or not)

And although Chomsky is a brilliant man, I really don't think he is right about the state of israel.

[alex221166]

moderate muslims like Cat Stevens

Yussuf Islam donated money to Muslim charities associated with terrorist groups. That is how moderate he is.

"Cat Stevens" follows the most fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. He is anything but moderate. And he could be singing duets with Mother Teresa for all I care - he is still someone who was seriosuly f*cked up and decided to replace drugs with religious fundamentalism.

[Brasidas]

This is a response to Human who said that "History has proven that where Islam prevails art, science, and all secular benefits of civilization disappear..."

You really need to take some history lessons. First off the Renaissance would have never happened if it wasn't for the Muslims who transcribed and translated much of what had been lost from ancient times, there would have been NO RENAISSANCE!! It was thanks to the Muslims that many of the Great Ideas of ancient times were preserved and protected from the Christian Church. Have you ever heard of the Dark Ages?? Organized Christianity has been a thorn in the side of free thought for close to 1500 years. Many of the founders of the Scientific revolution were persecuted by the Church for questioning accepted doctrine. There were many great Muslim intelectuals.

Here is a site that discusses Islam and it's beliefs, it would be wise for people who "hate" Islam or even for those who are confuse by Islam to read it!!!!!!!!

www.iridis.com/islam

Finally, I am Pagan so I am not biased towards Islam.

When discussing a religion one should remember to ignore the modern vulgarizations, but focus on the original doctrines. Very few people today practice Christianity or Islam in their original form. Religion today is mostly used for political purposes and to achieve a certain agenda.

No one should be "Insulted" by another religion because all religions have many things in common. This commonality is called "Transcedental Unity" All religions teach how to live a good life so you can get to a better "world" when your physical body dies. And they all try to explain how the world were created as well as why man was created. And there are many more common factors, that I don't have time to explain at the moment.

[alex221166]

Actually, you should be the one taking history lessons. The Muslims "preserved" some ancient texts that they obtained... from the Byzantines. When the Crusaders reconquered the Iberian Peninsula, they found many volumes of translated texts. However, while those texts reached the Latin kingdoms through the Muslims, it is a gross mistake to say that they were preserved thanks to the Muslims, especially since the Byzantines still had most of those same texts.

After 1453 there was a major influx of ancient Roman and Greek texts to all of Christendom because when Constantinople fell, most Byzantine schollars found refuge in places like Italy, France, Castille, Aragon and Portugal.

All religions teach how to live a good life

If you believe that, you really do need to brush up your knowledge. Was David Koresh a good guy? Did you know that everything that Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi has done in Iraq is validated by Koranic verses and by the Hadith?

Very few people today practice Christianity or Islam in their original form

WTF? It has been estimated that 10-15% of ALL THE MUSLIMS support terrorism against non-Muslims. That makes more than 100 million people. The real figures are probably much higher. Have you ever heard of Wahabism?

[Human]

Islam is opposed to visual arts, yes.
Just as ancient Judaism was.
You will never ever find a portrait among Jewish old
findings. You wont ever find a portrait of the Spain
invader Tarik.
If muslims were in Italy, there would not have been
Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Giotto, etc. If
muslims were still present in Spain, there would not
have been Velasquez, Goya, Picasso, Dalí, etc.
They are opposed to sculputre as well: somehow they
perceive it as a sort of idolatry.
Have you ever heard about a famous visual artist being who happens to be a muslim? I havent....

The intrinsic spirit Islam is radically different of the basic Western principles laid by the Greeks and the Romans.
A muslim Europe means the end of European culture.
Like a muslim Iran meant nearly the end of ancient indo european Persian culture...

[Melnorme]

alex said:

It has been estimated that 10-15% of ALL THE MUSLIMS support terrorism against non-Muslims.

That's the "Pipes figure".

[Adam]

Did you know that everything that Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi has done in Iraq is validated by Koranic verses and by the Hadith?

ah! now your true colours come out. its not that you're intolerant of extremism. you're intolerant of islam full stop. you are bent on painting all Muslims and jihad as evil an anametha to the west.

if Zarqawi is validated by the Quran and hadith, how come only he and other extremist post-colonial fringe movements misinterpret the Islamic texts so?
The march of history as wel las present day reality contradicts your assertaions

Dr. Gustav LeBon: "The reader will find, in my treatment of the Arabs' conquests and the reason of their victories, that force was never a factor in the spread of the Koranic teachings, and that the Arabs left those they had subdued free to exercise their religious beliefs. If it happened that some Christian peoples embraced Islam and adopted Arabic as their language, it was mainly due to the various kinds of justice on the part of the Arab victors, with the like of which the non-Moslems were not acquainted. It was also due to the tolerance and leniency of Islam, which was unknown to the other religions. ... The early Arab conquests might have blurred their common sense and made them commit the sorts of oppression which conquerors usually commit, and thus ill-treat the subdued and compel them to embrace the Faith they wanted to spread all over the globe. Had they done so, all nations, which were still not under their control, might have turned against them, and they might have suffered what had befallen the Crusaders in their conquest of Syria lately. However, the early Caliphs who enjoyed a rare ingenuity which was unavailable to the propagandists of new faiths, realized that laws and religion cannot be imposed by force. Hence they were remarkably kind in the way they treated the peoples of Syria, Egypt, Spain and every other country they subdued, leaving them to practise their laws and regulations and beliefs and imposing only a small Jizya in return for their protection and keeping peace among them. In truth, nations have never known merciful and tolerant conquerors like the Arabs. ... The mercy and tolerance of the conquerors were among the reasons for the spread of their conquests and for the nations' adoptions of their Faith and regulations and language, which became deeply rooted, resisted all sorts of attack and remained even after the disappearance of the Arabs' control on the world stage, though historians deny the fact. Egypt is the most evident proof of this. It adopted what the Arabs had brought over, and reserved it. Conquerors before the Arabs -- the Persians, Greeks and Byzantines -- could not overthrow the ancient Pharaoh civilization and impose what they had brought instead."

It has been estimated that 10-15% of ALL THE MUSLIMS support terrorism against non-Muslims. That makes more than 100 million people. The real figures are probably much higher.

how pathetic. these scare tactcs are worhty of Goebels.
there's a 35000 strong communty of muslims in my own NE UK town, representing ethnic groups - including many white converts - from all over the globe. There are about five individuals who are pro terroristic tactics, and they are characterised by extreme ignorance of the religion. 5 out of 35,000. how come yr zionist neo cons didn't poll my community?

Have you ever heard of Wahabism?

yes, and i'm sure i know a lot more about it than u. so what.

[Adam]

I'm afraid alex's allegations are lies. lies concerning tolerance, science and muslims today.

heres just a sample of objective western scholarship:

Phillip Hitti in 'Short History of the Arabs.'
"During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people made as important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual progress for the whole of the civilised world with the exception of the Far East. From the 9th to the 12th century there were more philosophical, medical, historical, religious, astronomical and geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human tongue."

Thomas Arnold in 'The Call to Islam.'
"We have never heard about any attempt to compel non-Muslim parties to adopt Islam or about any organised persecution aiming at exterminating Christianity. If the Caliphs had chosen one of these plans, they would have wiped out Christianity as easily as what happened to Islam during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain; by the same method which Louis XIV followed to make Protestantism a creed whose followers were to be sentenced to death; or with the same ease of keeping the Jews away from Britain for a period of three hundred fifty years."

H.G. Wells
"The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and gentle dealings and behaviour, and inspire people with nobility and tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and injustice were the least as compared with all other societies preceding it... Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and fraternity."


Bertrand Russel in “History of Western Philosophy”, London, 1948, p. 419.
"Our use of the phrase 'The Dark ages' to cover the period from 699 to 1,000 marks our undue concentration on Western Europe... From India to Spain, the brilliant civilisation of Islam flourished. What was lost to Christendom at this time was not lost to civilisation, but quite the contrary... To us it seems that West-European civilisation is civilisation, but this is a narrow view."

James Addison in 'The Christian Approach to the Moslem,' p. 35.
"Despite the growth of antagonism, Moslem (Muslim) rulers seldom made their Christian subjects suffer for the Crusades. When the Saracens finally resumed the full control of Palestine, the Christians were given their former status as dhimmis. The Coptic Church, too had little cause for complaint under Saladin's (Salahuddin) strong government, and during the time of the earlier Mameluke sultans who succeeded him the Copts experienced more enlightened justice than they had hitherto known. The only effect of the Crusaders upon Egyptian Christians was to keep them for a while from pilgrimage to Jerusalem, for as long as the Franks were in charge heretics were forbidden access to the shrines. Not until the Moslem victories could they enjoy their rights as Christians."

Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe'
"During the period of the Caliphs the learned men of the Christians and the Jews were not only held in great esteem but were appointed to posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to the high ranking job in the government... He (the Caliph) never considered to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, but only his excellence in the field of learning."

Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall in his 1927 Lecture on 'Tolerance in Islam,' Madras, India.
"In the eyes of history, religious toleration is the highest evidence of culture in a people... It was not until the Western nations broke away from their religious law that they became more tolerant, and it was only when the Muslims fell away from their religious law that they declined in tolerance and other evidences of the highest culture. Before the coming of Islam it (tolerance) had never been preached as an essential part of religion..."

Keith Devlin on the debt of influence that science, culture and technology owe to Islam
(Thursday September 5, 2002 - The Guardian)
"It was largely through translations of the Arabic texts into Latin that western Europe, freshly emerged from the Dark Ages, kick-started its mathematics in the 10th and subsequent centuries, paving the way for the scientific revolution in the 17th century and thence to the scientific and technological world we now take for granted. ... Without the dedication of the Islamic scholars of the 9th to the 14th century, it is not clear that Western Europe would have become the world leader in science and technology. And it is also unlikely that the United States would have inherited that leadership role."

quran.nu/pdf/PDF.asp?id=Islamic_Terrorism_Exploded

quran.nu/pdf/PDF.asp?id=Muhammad_Messenger_of_Allah