Homosexuality

[alex221166]

Katea said:

Sorry Dienekes,

This isn't correct. People are born gay. What Alex says is correct. Many of the factors that affect sexual orientation later in life are determined by prenatal factors.
Of course a persons environment, beliefs, upbringing will affect how they express their sexuality - ie. how they actually express it (ie. whether they repress their true orientation or not).

Exactly.

[Melnorme]

alex said:

Well, no father or no mother wants a homosexual future to his/her son/daughter.

Exactly. Parents want to be grandparents.

[Graeme]

People who are homosexual are not born to be homosexual. Maybe a tendency to become an homosexual. Why is it that identical twins can have different sexual outcomes. One homosexual and the other heterosexual. Same genes, same upbringing. Sexuality is more complex than just genes or environment. Looking for a simple solution is futile.

[Katea]

Katea said:

Sorry Dienekes,

This isn't correct. People are born gay. What Alex says is correct. Many of the factors that affect sexual orientation later in life are determined by prenatal factors.
Of course a persons environment, beliefs, upbringing will affect how they express their sexuality - ie. how they actually express it (ie. whether they repress their true orientation or not).

I should expand on this:

In the 50's & 60's there was a progesterone based antimiscarriage drug (which ironically didn't actually prevent foetal death), which in the foetus was metabolised into testosterone.
Females who had prenatal exposure to this extra testosterone have a much higher incidence of being bisexual or Lesbian, than females that didn't have this prenatal exposure. (I read this in a book on the effects of prenatal exposure to progestin - I'd prefer to be able to quote the exact reference, but unfortunately this is the best I can do at the moment).
A friend of mine was exposed to progestin before she was born, and says that she probably is bisexual. She was very tomboyish as a child, and is more physically attracted to women. However, she is very feminine and overall is more attracted to mens personalities. She has had crushes on women, but has never actually acted on it (and probably will never now - having a permanant male partner).
Her true orientation is probably bisexual, but her life experiences, environmental effects etc. have led her to express herself as being entirely heterosexual. Had her life experiences been different, she might have expressed herself as being lesbian instead.

[alex221166]

Katea said:

I should expand on this:

In the 50's & 60's there was a progesterone based antimiscarriage drug (which ironically didn't actually prevent foetal death), which in the foetus was metabolised into testosterone.
Females who had prenatal exposure to this extra testosterone have a much higher incidence of being bisexual or Lesbian, than females that didn't have this prenatal exposure. (I read this in a book on the effects of prenatal exposure to progestin - I'd prefer to be able to quote the exact reference, but unfortunately this is the best I can do at the moment).
A friend of mine was exposed to progestin before she was born, and says that she probably is bisexual. She was very tomboyish as a child, and is more physically attracted to women. However, she is very feminine and overall is more attracted to mens personalities. She has had crushes on women, but has never actually acted on it (and probably will never now - having a permanant male partner).
Her true orientation is probably bisexual, but her life experiences, environmental effects etc. have led her to express herself as being entirely heterosexual. Had her life experiences been different, she might have expressed herself as being lesbian instead.

Very interesting.

[One Humanity]

Melnorme said:

Exactly. Parents want to be grandparents.

Where there is low societal support for having children (only 3% of German children are guaranteed a day home attendance, in the former socialistic 'D'DR it was a 100%) they rather care less for that. If they get a child, they grow it up because of biological affinity, but they don't plan for it.

Countries like France, Albania and Israel don't have that problem, they have a better number of offspring.

[Melnorme]

Gareth said:

Countries like France, Albania and Israel don't have that problem, they have a better number of offspring.

Heh, in Europe, 'slightly above replacement level' IS 'better', I guess.

[nobody you know]

Whatever. I've heard more than I can stand from homophobes and their whining.

Depraved community? Don't make me laugh. Many of the lesbians and gay people I know are religious and agree with conservitive values. And those that are not are decent people who only want to live their lives.

I am definitely more conservitive than my parents in my views, and I do not agree that people should go around shagging everything in sight. But it is not only gay people who do this, many of the homophobes who gave me such a hard time would go out and sleep with whatever pimply public-schoolboy was free that night. The same people who did this would torment anyone who happened to be a "queer". They weren't fussy about being "depraved".

Most lesbians and gays I know show restraint in their sexual activities although with all groups there are exceptions.

[eufrenio]

nobody said:

Well I am a lesbian and I am not "manly" at all. In fact there are a lot of butch women I know who are completely straight.

Im a lil girly girl....lol.

Oh and I have VERY strong feelings on the homophobia thing. I nearly killed myself when I was 14 because of the abuse I was recieving for my sexuality. I despise those who say that gay pride marches are "ramming it down everyone's throat" - come on - its ONE DAY A YEAR. We need a day when we can be happy and celebrate our identity and not have to apologise for it.

If homosexuality is "fashionable" how come gay teenagers are 30 times more likely to kill themselves than straight ones?

It makes me sick. We have been persecuted for too long. How the hell can loving someone make you abnormal or have a "personality disroder" - the ones with the personality disorder are the homophobic scumbags who try to stop good people being happy. I've had just about enough of those people and I don't want to hear any more from them.

You may feel feminine, while others may not not perceive you to be feminine. It´s a subjective feeling that may not be based on your actual personality and demeanour.

What we´re trying to do here is to look at the roots of homosexual behaviour. There´s no "homophobia" at work here, just intellectual inquiry. I personally believe that homosexuals should seek professional help as early in life as possible, because it´s obviously not an enjoyable life-style, as you mention.
Regardless of my personal opinion and the effect that homosexuality has on society, my interest is anthropological in a broad sense.

Homosexuality has got nothing to do with "loving someone". "Love" has no scientific meaning. It´s a mixture of biology, culture and social values.

Surely, if 95 % of any given human group is attracted to the opposite sex, you cannot describe "homosexuality" as normal. "Abnormal" here has no moral meaning, it just means different from the norm.
Would you dispute that claim?
How can homosexuality be normal in that sense? It is an aberrant phenomenon which needs an explanation from biology and psychiatry.

[nobody you know]

It is only homophobes which make it "non-enjoyable". Now that I have got some different friends who are not homophobic I don't have to constantly apologise for my sexuality.

I can just forget about it and be myself.

And why does everything have something to do with sicence. Science doesn't explain everything you know.

[alex221166]

nobody said:

Whatever. I've heard more than I can stand from homophobes and their whining.

Depraved community? Don't make me laugh. Many of the lesbians and gay people I know are religious and agree with conservitive values. And those that are not are decent people who only want to live their lives.

I am definitely more conservitive than my parents in my views, and I do not agree that people should go around shagging everything in sight. But it is not only gay people who do this, many of the homophobes who gave me such a hard time would go out and sleep with whatever pimply public-schoolboy was free that night. The same people who did this would torment anyone who happened to be a "queer". They weren't fussy about being "depraved".

Most lesbians and gays I know show restraint in their sexual activities although with all groups there are exceptions.

When I said "depraved" I was talking about the image some homosexuals (namely "queers") give during those parades, not necessarily about the reality of their lives. They (I am talking about queers) provide a flamboyant and depraved image of the whole community. I just think that it is excessive.

As to the sexual behaviour itself (namely promiscuity), it might be relevant when it comes to gays but not regarding lesbians (lesbians have the lowest STD %, lower even than the ones found in heteros). Furthermore, the notion of what is promiscuous and what is tolerable is largely cultural. I've seen (mostly) northern European women who were a bit "too liberal" for my taste.

[nobody you know]

You are right that they can seem very flamboyant and excessive. However you can't judge a whole group of people by some camp WHACKO'S who in some cases advocate the killling of straight people.

I do not know any of these people myself and most of the people I know really dislike camp. However you have to remember that they have probably been given a terrible time for their sexuality their whole life so they are reacting against it. Some people I know say they were very camp and rebellious in their youth and now have settled down more.

to use an analogy which some of you may understand it is like the white people who are discrimiated against in predominantly non-white areas, feel alienated from society and so turn to extreme neo-Nazi movements. However as they grow older they become less rebellious and adopt values which are more acceptable to the society at large.

But you are right in saying they give us a bad image and in general I find these people - like the ones you constantly see on TV - annoying and unfunny as well as promoting a bad stereotype of homosexuals in general.

[alex221166]

nobody said:

It is only homophobes which make it "non-enjoyable". Now that I have got some different friends who are not homophobic I don't have to constantly apologise for my sexuality.

I can just forget about it and be myself.

And why does everything have something to do with sicence. Science doesn't explain everything you know.

Well, according to most statistics 10% of the world's population is gay, so you aren't completely "on your own". That also means that many of them are able to pass for heteros. It is particularly easy for lesbian women to pass, unless they look like Stallone and dress like a lumberjack.

By the way, I tolerate homosexual behaviour (as long as it doesn't involve me ;D, lol) but the only thing that may force me to look the other way is when two males kiss or something... between lesbians it doesn't bother me the least. I guess that it has to do with it being much more normal to see two women holding hands and stuff like that.

[Melnorme]

nobody said:

Science doesn't explain everything you know.

Blasphemy!!! ;D

[nobody you know]

I think you know what promiscuity is and I agree with you that many people where I live (UK - which you woupd probably classify as "north europe") are very promiscuous. It is promoted by the media of course, but some people in my sister's class are already having sex at the age of 12. They all talk about it and most of them have gone quite far with a boy.

To me that is depraved that the culture and the media encourages 12 year olds that having sex is right. Read the magazines for teenage girls here and it is full of stuff like "Make him Hot and Horny Tonight!" And this is for girls of 12-16.

You regularly see girls of 11 or younger dressed up to look like prostitutes. Tell me that this is all right, whereas homosexuality is not.

In my area homosexuals are not listened to and are often treated very badly. By the heterosexual culture which people claim they need to protect by denying us their rights. Now is this sort of behaviour which I am describing moral or right? How is that sort of thing more "normal" than a loving gay relationship of 40 years during which time neither partner has been unfaithful to the other?