Homosexuality

[alex221166]

Homosexuality is neither of the above. Real homosexuality is a mix between phoetal hormonal abnormalities (related with the intra-uterine environment - not with the phoetus' genes) which may or may not be triggered by the cultural environment the child is raised in. The later is more involved in the mannerisms (men raised without a parental role model may acquire certain female mannerisms and still be completely heterosexual).

Then there's also cultural homosexuality (example: many American GIs servng in Afghanistan complained that the Afghan males were all into homosexuality).

[kynikos]

Sandwich said:

No, they probably go through more sexual partners in a year than us straights will have in a lifetime.

Yes, given their "tender sensitivities" it's always a surprise how promiscuous they are, even within "commited" relationships!

Maybe there's something we straights could learn from them, although, funnily enough, it's the one issue where my wife suddenly loses sympathy for them! ;D

[AWAR]

Poligamy rulz yo!

[Sandwich]

Real homosexuality is a mix between phoetal hormonal abnormalities

Can you elaborate, please. Much as I like Melnorme' variability concept, this just sounds the most likely. I am generally of the opinion that perinatal trauma is a vastly underestimated factor in human affairs, a view shared by several consultant neurologists i have discussed it with.

I think people should bear in mind that homosexual behaviour is not restricted to humans - although whether you get Bonobos with limp wrists, I don't know.

[AWAR]

Sandwich said:

although whether you get Bonobos with limp wrists, I don't know.

Have scientist tried to see what sort of music do the gay animals like more - the village people - or - Dr.Dre - ?

[kynikos]

Sandwich said:

I am generally of the opinion that perinatal trauma is a vastly underestimated factor in human affairs, a view shared by several consultant neurologists i have discussed it with.

This (relation of perinatal trauma and sexuality) is very interesting, and I bet would reveal a lot if studied with real impartiality.

Have you any links, Sandwich?

[Sandwich]

Nope, no links, just dinner party chat, and not about sexuality.

Neurologists reckon some 30% --- yes 30% --- of kids are somehow mentally impaired as a result of f*ckups during delivery. Nothing lethal or critical, just mildly impaired concentration or co-ordination or whatever. Not the stuff they like to tell you usually, or will welcome studies about.

We live in the dark ages, I tell you.

Also quite a lot of the twin similarities may be due to similar perinatal experiences, mainly diet during development in this case.

And I bet Greece's relatively low average IQ score ties in more with appalling hospital perinatal care, as evinced by Greece's particularly bad child mortality rates, than with anything else.

These reminders of our vulnerabilities, our still animal exposure to the hazards of fate, keep one humble.

The idea that being gay is linked to this kind of damage somehow just feels right. Psychology doesn't really fit and genetics seems a bit far fetched. Maybe Alex has a link.

[kynikos]

Hi Sandwich

We may be going a bit OT here, but I agree fully with you re the perinatal stuff, though I would personally set percentage level at higher than 30.

We live in the dark ages, I tell you.

Enjoy ;D

Yes, places like Greece and Russia are absolutely appalling in their treatment, and it's so ingrained they don't even understand what you're on about...

====

Back to our topic though, even bearing the above in mind, I wouldn't dismiss the psychological and genetic factors.

I think genetic factors probably are at play in extreme cases, e.g. trans-sexuals, hijras, etc,

Whereas psychological ones are probably more at play in the case of, say, British public school system types, you know, the Steven Fry set,

wheras trauma would play more of a role in your average "mixed-up" individual.

===

Very difficult call though, and I wouldn't put my head on the block about any of this. I voted "combination of factors".

[Dienekes]

Some boys are naturally effeminate or girly and are more prone to develop an abnormal sexuality during their childhood. Homosexuality is a mental illness but one which is difficult to treat because it starts early on and becomes a part of a person's core personality by the time he becomes an adult. While most men learn to act like men as part of the growin up process, homosexuals must unlearn their whole development and relearn a sexual role, something which is virtually impossible.

For lesbians, the cause is probably ugliness or fear of men. While male homosexuals often have a 'normal' appearance, lesbians tend to be unattractive -- except in porn movies of course.

[Dienekes]

Also, about the continuum mentioned somewhere above, presumably from homosexuals through bisexuals to heterosexuals, it just doesn't exist. There have been experiments with self-proclaimed bisexuals, testing their physical response to male and female stimuli, and invariably the bisexuals were attracted by males only in a physical sense.

[Dienekes]

Sandwich said:

And I bet Greece's relatively low average IQ score ties in more with appalling hospital perinatal care, as evinced by Greece's particularly bad child mortality rates, than with anything else.

Greeks have a mean IQ of about 100

www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/greekiq/index.html

www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000241.html

www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000239.html

[kynikos]

Dienekes said:

Some boys are naturally effeminate or girly and are more prone to develop an abnormal sexuality during their childhood.

But what do you think it is that causes this "natural effeminateness" in the first place Dienekes?

Do you think it is genetic?
Is it to be seen as a flaw?

[kynikos]

Dienekes said:

For lesbians, the cause is probably ugliness or fear of men.

Just pray the girls don't hear you, mate!! ;D ;D ;D

[Sandwich]

Dienekes, I had read the interesting material you have posted, but nonetheless feel there is a health-care problem in Greece - probably accentuated in the rural areas.

Personally, I believe that a vast increase in general visual stimulation and the acquisition of visual information processing skills that has gone with it - even if it is only to understand a TV advert for a detergent - is partly behind the generation-on-generation increase in IQ. But improvements in perinatal care are very probably another key factor.

You make the point that second-generation Greeks in Australia go on to achieve very good relative results and that this suggests that environment must play a large part in the original low score. I agree: and perinatal care is probably the most significant environmental factor there is.

[Sandwich]

It's now strongly suggested, I gather, that male bi-sexuals really prefer men - as do female bi-sexuals. And I agree with Dienekes that most lesbians are not physically attractive - whether this is a cause or an effect of associated genetic and other factors remains to be worked out.

Dienekes seems to be proposing effeminacy as a genetic factor predisposing individuals to a non-genetic behaviour disorder. But aren't there quite a lot of phenotypically and socially macho gays? Wasn't this effeminacy a social role assigned to homosexuals to which many of them used to conform but which is now less common and more fluid? A role which made it possible for them to make sense of their own sexuality in terms of the procedures of the rest of us? Ultimately a question of power, as Foucault argues?

In any case, sexuality and gender roles are not simply reducible one to another, and the imperfect fit is a matter of varying social process and negotiation in different societies.