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Post by alex221166 on Jun 29, 2004 11:13:41 GMT -5
Can you elaborate, please. Much as I like Melnorme' variability concept, this just sounds the most likely. I am generally of the opinion that perinatal trauma is a vastly underestimated factor in human affairs, a view shared by several consultant neurologists i have discussed it with. I think people should bear in mind that homosexual behaviour is not restricted to humans - although whether you get Bonobos with limp wrists, I don't know. I already wrote a post about this some time ago. Male phoetus that receives extra estrogens in utero -> likely to become a homosexual Female phoetus that receives extra testosterone in utero -> likely to become a lesbian Some lesbians are "ugly", as Dienekes said, because they look "manly" (due to the extra testosterone they received in utero). In other cases, they look completely normal. I saw two Portuguese lesbians and both are very beautiful - by looking at them in the street you would never believe that they weren't straight. Of course, homosexuality vs heterosexuality isn't like a light switch you can turn on or off - it doesn't work that way. Depending on the amount and balance of hormones every single one of us received in utero, we will be more "male" or more "female". Some men (straight men) will naturally be more open and sensitive to certain female issues than others (I advise everyone to see the movie called "Billy Elliot" - an excellent example of what I am saying). The same goes for certain women: Tom-boy girls won't necessarily become lesbians. Since both males and females have and produce male and female hormones (males produce estrogens through their Sertoli cells, and testosterone through the Leydig cells, all located in the testicules), the real issue is the hormonal balance - particularly during the phoetal organogenesis. Scientists recently found out that the "gay" hypothalamus (gland that secretes hormones and regulates the hormonal balance through a negative feedback mechanism) was of the same size as a female hypothalamus - while the male (straight) hypothalamus was larger. What more evidence do you need?  Homosexuality is obviously not a disease or an ilness. To a certain extent, it is even natural - as one of you said, it happens in nature. Many animals show homosexual behaviour (even though in most cases it is bi-sexual). Now, how about those males that received a relatively high amount of estrogens, but not enough to make them full "out of the closet" gays? Those guys will probably by bi-sexuals, or repressed bi-sexuals. Many of them - considering that Christianity and most monotheistic religions are homophobic - probably will never even realise it. Culture also plays a part in the triggering of homosexual behaviour. Can you imagine a gay or a bisexual leader of a superpower? Roman emperor Hadrian had a younger lover called Antinoos (sp?) - back then it was not frowned upon, or at least it was tolerated. Hadrian was hardly the only ancient leader involved in this sort of behaviour.... By the way, I am speaking merely on a strictly scientific level. I personally find homosexual behaviour short of being disgusting - but that goes a long way from calling them "sick". I don't like large tatoos and most piercings in people, and I don't think they are sick either. Call it culture clash, or whatever... Independantly of what we think, homosexuals are people that deserve our respect as such - even if we don't particularly enjoy their lifestyle. |
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Post by AWAR on Jun 29, 2004 11:20:25 GMT -5
Actually, I read somewhere that tattoos and piercings are signs of repressed homosexuality. |
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Katea
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Post by Katea on Jun 29, 2004 12:07:33 GMT -5
I think people should bear in mind that homosexual behaviour is not restricted to humans - although whether you get Bonobos with limp wrists, I don't know. The full scoop on Bonobos - "Anything goes". songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html |
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Post by Dienekes on Jun 29, 2004 16:59:33 GMT -5
But what do you think it is that causes this "natural effeminateness" in the first place Dienekes? Do you think it is genetic? Is it to be seen as a flaw? Males exhibit their masculinity to various degrees. There is probably a genetic component to this. The primary component of masculinity is of course attraction for the female sex. Weak masculinity makes the individual more prone to homosexuality, because the urge for the female is weakened; but this is not automatic: people aren't born "gay". |
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Katea
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Post by Katea on Jun 29, 2004 17:11:55 GMT -5
people aren't born "gay". Sorry Dienekes, This isn't correct. People are born gay. What Alex says is correct. Many of the factors that affect sexual orientation later in life are determined by prenatal factors. Of course a persons environment, beliefs, upbringing will affect how they express their sexuality - ie. how they actually express it (ie. whether they repress their true orientation or not). |
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Sandwich
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Post by Sandwich on Jun 29, 2004 18:51:53 GMT -5
Well that appears to be a clincher, Alex. But I gather that there is an argument on the lines of In other words, if you behave in a girly way, your hypothalamus will shrink . This rather ties in with Dienekes' approach. And just in case anybody accuses us of woolly thinking: www.hedweb.com/animimag/gaysheep.html Surely, this trait can't have been selected for? More seriously this summary of the relevant studies www.utexas.edu/courses/bio301d/Topics/Gay/Text.html highlights an anomaly about the inheritability of homosexuality that reinforces the case for perinatal trauma in my view. |
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Post by alex221166 on Jun 29, 2004 21:24:18 GMT -5
Well that appears to be a clincher, Alex. But I gather that there is an argument on the lines of In other words, if you behave in a girly way, your hypothalamus will shrink . This rather ties in with Dienekes' approach. And just in case anybody accuses us of woolly thinking: www.hedweb.com/animimag/gaysheep.html Surely, this trait can't have been selected for? More seriously this summary of the relevant studies www.utexas.edu/courses/bio301d/Topics/Gay/Text.html highlights an anomaly about the inheritability of homosexuality that reinforces the case for perinatal trauma in my view. Your links support what I said - and clearly contradict what Dienekes said. Besides, I know I am correct. I heard the scientists that made this discovery speak about it on a program. Furthermore, I have some knowledge of animal behaviour and animal physiology. Everything I said makes perfect sense. |
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Sandwich
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Post by Sandwich on Jun 29, 2004 23:38:43 GMT -5
Alex, in general I agree, of course. However, it also appears that the superchiasmic nucleus, a part of the hypothalamus, is actually enlarged rather than smaller in homosexual men. The SCN is associated with the circadian rhythm but in fact regulates many body cycles. This looks a little more complicated than simple impairment, and it is worth stressing that affected individuals suffer no loss of libido.
Even on the assumption that a tendency towards homosexuality may be genetic or (as you and I suppose) due to perinatal factors, the way this trait expresses itself in behaviour, and in the establishment of reward mechanisms within the brain remains very unclear. We should not assume that what is socially possible for an affected individual is irrelevant to the configuration achieved, with possible eventual consequences for brain morphology.
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Post by alex221166 on Jun 30, 2004 11:11:01 GMT -5
Alex, in general I agree, of course. However, it also appears that the superchiasmic nucleus, a part of the hypothalamus, is actually enlarged rather than smaller in homosexual men. The SCN is associated with the circadian rhythm but in fact regulates many body cycles. This looks a little more complicated than simple impairment, and it is worth stressing that affected individuals suffer no loss of libido. Even on the assumption that a tendency towards homosexuality may be genetic or (as you and I suppose) due to perinatal factors, the way this trait expresses itself in behaviour, and in the establishment of reward mechanisms within the brain remains very unclear. We should not assume that what is socially possible for an affected individual is irrelevant to the configuration achieved, with possible eventual consequences for brain morphology. I didn't say it was genetic - what I said was that homosexuals weren't "ill" or "sick" people. As far as I am concerned, those intra-uterine factors that may direct someone towards homosexuality are random. If homosexuality was genetic, there would be a high prevalence of homosexuality in families with homosexual individuals. As far as I know, that doesn't happen. Yesterday I remembered the story of two twins that were circumcized almost right after their birth. One of the procedures went terribly wrong and since it was impossible to save the baby's penis, they decided to make a sex change operation. The boy was raised as a girl, they dressed him like a girl, everything... By the time the "girl" reached his teens, "she" decided that wanted to revert the process and become a "straight" man. Nowadays, both the twins are happily married (with two women, obviously!). |
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Post by Nincada on Jul 1, 2004 15:17:31 GMT -5
In my human sexuality class, we were discussing the influences of prenatal hormone levels on sexual orientation. The professor mentioned an interesting study done a while back concerning the effects of prenatal hormones on sexual orientation may be connected to the sexual dimorphism seen in the relative lengths of the index fingers to ring fingers in males and females. Typically, women's index fingers are about the same length as their ring fingers, but men's ring fingers are often considerably longer than their index fingers. The professor stated that researchers attributed these sex differences in the ratio of length between these two fingers to androgen influence during fetal development. Lesbians' finger lengths were more likely to follow the typical male pattern than heterosexual women's, indicating the effect of androgen. Homosexual males with at least two older brothers had finger length ratios signficantly different from heterosexual men. I don't know how relevant this research is when actually applying it in the real world outside of a controlled group, but certain aspects of it may hold true for certain percentage of lesbians and homosexuals.
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Post by Dienekes on Jul 5, 2004 22:30:12 GMT -5
Many of the factors that affect sexual orientation later in life are determined by prenatal factors. Maybe, but I'd like to see the evidence. |
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Katea
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Post by Katea on Jul 6, 2004 7:22:44 GMT -5
Maybe, but I'd like to see the evidence. I think its more likely that it is a combination of factors (both prenatal & environmental factors) & that the different factors may differ between the genders. I have studied Psychology, & Clinical Psychologists no-longer regard homosexuality as clinically abnormal. Some homosexuals might have psychological issues - but its thought of more as a consequence of their orientation (ie. feeling conflicted with their sexual orientation), not a cause. My advanced abnormal psychology text goes into various theories (prenatal factors, brain morphological differences etc) but unfortunately I can't refer to it right now for specifics (as it, & all my notes are several thousand km away). Having a scientific backgroup, I dislike not being able give specific references,..but this is the best weblink I've been able to search out... serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Bodian2.html |
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Post by asdf on Jul 15, 2004 4:08:22 GMT -5
From the rules you agree to abide by before admission into Skadi's Adult Forum:
There's not point to this post; I just thought that was hillarious.
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Post by nobody you know on Jul 15, 2004 6:42:49 GMT -5
Well I am a lesbian and I am not "manly" at all. In fact there are a lot of butch women I know who are completely straight.
Im a lil girly girl....lol.
Oh and I have VERY strong feelings on the homophobia thing. I nearly killed myself when I was 14 because of the abuse I was recieving for my sexuality. I despise those who say that gay pride marches are "ramming it down everyone's throat" - come on - its ONE DAY A YEAR. We need a day when we can be happy and celebrate our identity and not have to apologise for it.
If homosexuality is "fashionable" how come gay teenagers are 30 times more likely to kill themselves than straight ones?
It makes me sick. We have been persecuted for too long. How the hell can loving someone make you abnormal or have a "personality disroder" - the ones with the personality disorder are the homophobic scumbags who try to stop good people being happy. I've had just about enough of those people and I don't want to hear any more from them.
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Post by alex221166 on Jul 15, 2004 8:13:08 GMT -5
Yes, that was what I was trying to say previously. I've seen lesbians who were a lot more feminine than some straight women I've seen. Of course, some lesbians are very butch.
The problem with the gay pride marches is that intend to shock with the most depraved behaviour so that people will get used to more normal stuff (like two gays holding hands or something). That ends up damaging the reputation of the "normal" homosexuals. I don't have any problems when I see two gays (men or women) holding hands or showing tenderness to each other. The problem is that gays seem to want to shuve their passed frustrations onto everyone else by showing that they are out of the closet. Sorry, but that is a pain in the ass, and I've seen homosexuals complaining that the guys dressed like Carmen Miranda only damage the image of the gay community.
Well, no father or no mother wants a homosexual future to his/her son/daughter. That by itself is a disappointment. Of course, once again the image one gets from the gay marches is that of a depraved community. You would all get a much better response if you just marched dressing and behaving normally.
As to gays adopting children, I am completely against. Sorry, but even though I don't doubt that some gays would make great parents, their own homosexuality could condition their children to the same sort of behaviour. Homosexuality can be - to some extent - conditioned. Just look at the ancient Greco-Roman civilization.
I'm sorry if anyone abused you. Adolescence is already pretty f*cked up even without that extra.
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