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Post by Mike the Jedi on Sept 29, 2005 1:03:40 GMT -5
The point is, though, that some people see light features on Jews and assume that it's due to admixture. Precisely, and it's exactly those kinds of faulty assumptions on the part of the krauts that could have helped lighter-featured Jews survive Nazi Germany! Good points.
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Sept 29, 2005 1:16:08 GMT -5
Yeah, but that's not a bad thing, is it? All that means is there are some Middle Easteners who could pass for Germans if they were forced to. Well, I think the father and son Israeli musicians look Middle Eastern. The point is, though, that some people see light features on Jews and assume that it's due to admixture. Case in point: CooCooCachoo saw the back of one yeshiva student's head and decided he could pass as German. The reality is that Jews have had these features from day one. I'm not denying admixture, however. Genetically speaking, it's already been detremined that Ashkenazim are 50% European, and 50% Middle Eastern. And I'm talking about autosomal research, not Y-chromosome or MtDNA (which collectively comprise a whopping 2% of our gene pool) analyses. ...Shut up, before I stick you in a hot oven. Ashekenazim are from an old, old diaspora. Many many years to mix and mingle. ...I would say that the admixture is stronger than 50% in many cases. (Or that Jewish ethnicity IS the admixture to be more precise.) MtDNA is not even part of our DNA. It's just a marker for unbroken female lineage. The fact that no Jewish mtDNA exists for Ashekenazi, and that they all resemble Europeans mtDNA shows that there is not a single unbroken Matrilineal line in Europe. (Which according to Jewish law means none of them are Jewish.) ...It's only the Y Chromosome that is present. Establishing unbroken Jewish paternal lineage. That doesn't mean 50%. It means a Jewish paternal line could have married 12 shiksas in a row, and still pass off that Y marker.
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Post by Yankel on Sept 29, 2005 1:22:56 GMT -5
Likewise. Now enjoy this surprisingly listenable song by William Shatner and Ben Folds.
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Post by Yankel on Sept 29, 2005 1:40:33 GMT -5
MtDNA is not even part of our DNA. Uhh, yes it is, dude. It isn't nuclear DNA, but is DNA, nonetheless. That's why it's called mitochondrial DNA. First of all, there's no such thing as Jewish DNA. So, yeah, Ashkenazi Jews have no Jewish MtDNA. No shit. Second of all, many Western and Central European Jews have Near Eastern Y-and MtDNA. Finally, your comment about Ashkenazim who lack certain maternal markers being non-Jews is out of line, and completely false. At some point, Jewish men took European brides, who obviously underwent halachic conversions. Oy... I specifically stated that the 50-50 figure is based on recent AUTOSOMAL research. It's also a collective figure. Western European Jews tend more toward the Near Eastern end of the spectrum, while Eastern European Jews generally tend more toward the European end.
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Sept 29, 2005 1:51:06 GMT -5
MtDNA is not even part of our DNA. Uhh, yes it is, dude. It isn't nuclear DNA, but is DNA, nonetheless. That's why it's called mitochondrial DNA. Except for properties of Sugar combustion, the Mitochondrial DNA does not contribute to human development. It's just something that's in the Egg, used to establish female lineage. I can't really blame them. I don't find Jewish women all that attractive either. They are not Jewish is the strictest sense of Jewish law. I don't know. They say they're 50% Middle Eastern. But I bet I could Jew them down to 30.
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Post by Yankel on Sept 29, 2005 2:14:30 GMT -5
Do you really wanna argue about halacha? I'm no Torah scholar, but even my reform Jewish education covered conversion. The Talmud stipulates that to be a Jew, one must either be born to Jewish mother, or convert. I think it also says something about converts being Jews who were born into goy families. Converts may not be allowed to become Cohanim or Levites, but they can become Israelites. Good for you! I, on the other hand, will continue to date shiksehs until I find a nice Jewish girl I can marry... several years down the road. ;D You know what I think? I think you're no Lenny Bruce. I think you should keep your day job.
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Post by penetratorx on Sept 29, 2005 8:18:47 GMT -5
Would you know Sigmund Freud was Jewish if he didn't tell you? subconsciously yes ;D
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Post by k5125 on Sept 29, 2005 16:14:26 GMT -5
In case anyone is curious... Numbers 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7 are "Arab-Jews" (Mizrahim). The others are Ashkenazi. heh, you would have been the last person I expected to be using that term. Its cool and all. Just surprising. I have gotten in trouble though when using it around mizrahim. Btw, is this guy mizrahi? And what's so germanic looking about him or this guy? And btw, Shatner is only half Jewish I think.
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Post by k5125 on Sept 29, 2005 17:41:16 GMT -5
I don't know. They say they're 50% Middle Eastern. But I bet I could Jew them down to 30. 30%? A lot of Jews from Europe look like this guy. I would say more like 75% to even near 100%, at least for the large number of Ashkenazim who look like this. And coocoocachoo, what do you make of these guys?
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Sept 29, 2005 18:18:45 GMT -5
...These three would be the Kappos I'd use to heard the other ones into the ovens. With the right haircuts, those three could pass in German society.
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Post by k5125 on Sept 29, 2005 20:20:13 GMT -5
...These three would be the Kappos I'd use to heard the other ones into the ovens. With the right haircuts, those three could pass in German society. Maybe, but you have to keep in mind that there are Iranians lighter than those three, so that really doesn't say that much.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Sept 29, 2005 20:21:47 GMT -5
It's not so much the pigmentation, I think. Rather the features.
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Post by k5125 on Sept 29, 2005 20:29:46 GMT -5
It's not so much the pigmentation, I think. Rather the features. Oh beyond a shadow of a doubt, there are Iranians with features such as these. I actually saw an Iranian on Tv tonight who could have passed as swedish believe it or not. He had blond/reddish hair and beard, with very light skin and extremely nordic and baltic features. This of course is a minority in Iran, but it does occur, just as it does amongs Jewish populations, although to a greater extent. No doubt there is alpish/noridic/baltic admixture among ashkenazim, but light skin and less delicate facial features are not necessarily always do to this.
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Post by asdf on Sept 29, 2005 20:32:57 GMT -5
ooh, I've seen an Amish who looked quite similar, but yeah.
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Post by k5125 on Sept 29, 2005 20:42:14 GMT -5
Check out this Iranian man. Then compare him to the three jews who were circled in the above pic. As far as features and complexion go, they could all pass for germanic I suppose if they tried. But this is not necessarily due to germanic admixture in any of them. Its possible of course, but certainly not absolutely the cause for sure.
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