Do arabs refer to people of european descent as..

[k5125]

"AbyaD" (aka "white")??

Or is it just a misconception that arabs view westerners as "white"?

I guess my question really also is, how does the arab world view race? Do they view it in terms of white, black, asian, etc?

I couldn't imagine so, because the middle east is part of asia, and there are many light skinned arabs (sort of white in comparison to black africans).

[Melnorme]

I've never heard of Arabs referring to Europeans as 'white' compared to themselves - but perhaps 'pale', or 'fair'.
Or they might just call them 'Westerner' or 'European'. In the Middle Ages they called them 'Franks'.

I'm pretty sure that Arabs call themselves 'white' in comparison to Sub-Saharan Africans.

[k5125]

I wonder how the Arabs view Spanish and Greek people, since they are european but just as dark as them many times.

[Melnorme]

There might be some good info here :

inhouse.lau.edu.lb/bima/papers/Perry.pdf

[k5125]

Tell me what you think of this article written by Ella Habibi Shohat, an Iraqi-Israeli-American Jew.

It makes references to whiteness and color, even supposedly the differences between western and oriental jews.

I find the article quite insulting and inaccurate if you ask me, but I want to hear others thoughts on it. Agree Disagree? on what points and why?

www.al-bushra.org/israel/reflection.htm

I should also note that her parents completely disagree with her political views.

I really just can't get past all of the biased falsehoods myself. At least I think they are falsehoods.

Especially this line right here.

"...understanding that I was not a tragic anomaly--for instance, the daughter of an Arab (Palestinian) and an Israeli (European Jew). "

Thats just ridiculous IMO.

[Solomon]

Dude, try to understand that no one is literally 'white', that it's interchangeable with Caucasoid. If Greeks are white, then so are Arabs. Besides, if you weren't aware, in the US Middle Eastern = white.

The problem is it's a social, not a scientific term. There's no logic behind claiming Europeans are white, yet the people directly southeast to them are a different race.

I find the article quite insulting and inaccurate if you ask me, but I want to hear others thoughts on it. Agree Disagree? on what points and why?

The bitch who wrote that garbage can go f*ck herself.

There was an article posted on gene expression recently which explained why some people have to pretend Israelis are evil whites with guns, and Palestinians their oppressed brown victims. In reality, distinctions made between Jews and Levantine Arabs are rather forced.

Here it is, read up:

www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003486.html

This part is particularly relevant to the topic:

The actor Tony Shalhoub regularly plays Italians (his Italian is pretty decent from what I hear!). Ralph Nader did not run for president as a "person of color," because most Americans probably think he has a good tan and don't know that he's Arab American. Ditto with Casey Kasem. Spencer Abraham was not generally considered a Senator of color from what I recall when he was representing Michigan. John Sununu was generally not thought of us George H.W. Bush's non-white Chief of Staff. Marlo Thomas, Tiffany and Shannon Elizabeth are not usually considered racially-mixed beauties though they are all part-Arab American (contrast this with Christina Aguilera, who is sometimes labelled non-white because of her Ecuadorian father).

There are many people who don't get this. Some of them are on the Left, and they want to portray Iraqis and Palestinians as oppressed brown folk. Some Iraqis are quite brown. But some of them are also rather white. As for Palestinians, as Natalie Portman pointed out in a letter to the Harvard Crimson in response to a writer who attempted to foist a white/non-white paradigm on to the Israeli-Arab conflict, there is a substantial amount of overlap physically between Jews and Arabs, especially Oriental/Mizrachi Jews and Arabs, at least for the purposes of a white/non-white dichotomy (not to mention that the "blackest" people in Israel are likely to be the large community of Ethiopian Beta Israel). This can be illustrated by a personal anecdote a close friend of mine told me about his Arab cousin in Israel who is quite fair, Russian immigrants often sought him out on the street and begin speaking to him in Russian.

[IfTheLightTakesUs]

Solomon said:

Dude, try to understand that no one is literally 'white', that it's interchangeable with Caucasoid. If Greeks are white, then so are Arabs. Besides, if you weren't aware, in the US Middle Eastern = white.

The problem is it's a social, not a scientific term. There's no logic behind claiming Europeans are white, yet the people directly southeast to them are a different race.


The bitch who wrote that <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=22&k=garbage%20can" onmouseover="window.status='garbage can'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">garbage can</a> go f*ck herself.

There was an article posted on gene expression recently which explained why some people have to pretend Israelis are evil whites with guns, and Palestinians their oppressed brown victims. In reality, distinctions made between Jews and Levantine Arabs are rather forced.

Here it is, read up:

www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003486.html

This part is particularly relevant to the topic:

He's not making that mistake, he is just asking if Arabs diffrentiate between themselves and Europeans racially.

You said in the US, Middle Eastern = white, then you go on to say that white is a social term. Find me an Irish/German american mix that calls Arabs white, and I'll get rid of those pesky gentiles for you

[Solomon]

IfTheLightTakesUs said:

He's not making that mistake, he is just asking if Arabs diffrentiate between themselves and Europeans racially.

I think he is, as he commented on how some Arabs look "sort of white compared to sub-Saharans".

You said in the US, Middle Eastern = white, then you go on to say that white is a social term.

I said that the problem is that it's a social term. My point is, technically, Caucasian = white. Sorry if that was confusing.

[visigodo]

I think I know what IfTheLightTakesUs, is getting at. I can tell you that according to the Eurostat, (The European census bureau) Europeans make a clear distinction between the original peoples of Europe, as apposed to people of Middle Eastern origins. Rather than lumping them into one category as the U.S. census does.

[visigodo]

I think the reason for the U.S. lumping Middle Eastern people, with the European group is due to mainly at the request of influential minority groups here in the U.S. who wish to solely take advantage of the categorization and to some extent the privileges that come with it. This is to the detriment of the Middle Eastern groups here in the U.S. (In other words the pie will remain bigger for certain minority groups at the at the expense of others)

That is why IfTheLightTakesUs, you will have a difficult time claiming a minority status and you’ll thus see your chances reduced so someone else can claim minority status and have an easier time when it comes to admissions into universities.

[Solomon]

Visigodo said:

I think the reason for the U.S. lumping Middle Eastern people, with the European group is due to mainly at the request of influential minority groups here in the U.S. who wish to solely take advantage of the categorization and to some extent the privileges that come with it.

No, definitely not. Middle Easterners have been bona fide whites in America since the 1800s, in other words, long before AA existed. Arabs are very successful and productive in the States. Also, keep in mind Asians (East Asians and South Asians) are excluded from AA.

It's very simple: Middle Easterners, North Africans and Europeans are Caucasoid, thus white.

[buddyrydell]

I'd say Arabs probably just refer to Europeans as "Western whites" if that makes any sense. Culturally there's a huge difference, and being white in the U.S. has largely been reserved for people who are European Christians (though Jews have also been included in the U.S. categorization of white for awhile now).

That's the social construct of "white" in the U.S. Now genetically speaking, it's been shown that Europeans and Middle Easterners share close group affinities in ancestry, which is why Caucasoids are divided into European and non-European Caucasoids. Because of the similarities, the average Middle Easterner looks far more similar to Europeans than to any other group by far. I'd say Middle Easterners probably think of blond blue-eyed fair-skinned whites (i.e. many northern Europeans and white Americans) as just "pale" or "fair-haired," but certainly they consider themselves as racially closer to Europeans than to any other group. The facial features are Caucasoid plus skin tones are not that dark among many Middle Easterners, in fact many people from Turkey, Iran, and Syria show much overlap with southern Europeans and would fit well in many of those countries.

I'd say many Middle Easterners are basically just a darker form of Mediterranean type (what some would call the Armenoid or Orientalid types), distinct from southern Europeans but not terribly different at all.

[visigodo]

Think of it in terms of economics, cause everything is. Why not have another box, for different people of different nations, we do it here in Europe. Take “IfTheLightTakesUs” case for example he is forbidden to claim minority status, who is hurt when it comes to claiming easier access to certain jobs, or entrance into universities? Is it the white Europeans?
Think about who gains? Middle Easterners? More than likely, no.

Specifically think about this next question.

“What does the term minority really mean?”<br>
The real gainers are those who seem to have a monopoly on claiming who is a minority and who is not.

[Solomon]

I hear what you're saying. But AA is mainly for blacks; Arabs do extremely well in the US, they don't need help.

Personally, I'm against AA period. It's reverse racism and it gives black Americans a victim/inferiority complex.

[visigodo]

You are correct on both your statements.

I understand that NAACP is mainly for blacks, and that they relatively recently gained most of their coercive powers. I also don’t expect for the NAACP to lobby congress anytime soon for equal minority status for Middle Easterners.

Perhaps you are correct about Arabs doing extremely well in the U.S., but what do you tell those few Arabs that could use the help legitimately, and would like to claim minority status like “IfTheLightTakesUs”. Obviously IfTheLightTakesUs, does not feel that he is being treated like a white European. Tough luck! We are like the Europeans so no help for you, you are not a minority.

I don't think "IfTheLightTakesUs” feels this way.