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Post by Josh on Jan 30, 2005 2:25:41 GMT -5
I thought that Arabs called whites Farangi (which I believe is Arabic for "Franks") or whatever the Arabic word for Romans is.
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Post by Solomon on Jan 30, 2005 2:34:42 GMT -5
Perhaps you are correct about Arabs doing extremely well in the U.S., but what do you tell those few Arabs that could use the help legitimately, and would like to claim minority status like “IfTheLightTakesUs”. Obviously IfTheLightTakesUs, does not feel that he is being treated like a white European. Tough luck! We are like the Europeans so no help for you, you are not a minority. I don't think "IfTheLightTakesUs” feels this way. Good point. I know there are people who could probably use the help just as much as an African-American. If someone feels like they're being discriminated against because of their background, they can always file a law suit. American courts seem to be sympathetic when it comes to those kind of cases.
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Post by buddyrydell on Jan 30, 2005 2:37:36 GMT -5
You are correct on both your statements. I understand that AA is mainly for blacks, and that they relatively recently gained most of their coercive powers. I also don’t expect for AA to lobby congress anytime soon for equal minority status for Middle Easterners. Perhaps you are correct about Arabs doing extremely well in the U.S., but what do you tell those few Arabs that could use the help legitimately, and would like to claim minority status like “IfTheLightTakesUs”. Obviously IfTheLightTakesUs, does not feel that he is being treated like a white European. Tough luck! We are like the Europeans so no help for you, you are not a minority. I don't think "IfTheLightTakesUs” feels this way. Well, I'd say that sometimes I feel a bit torn as to how to think about the issue of affirmative action. I mean, yeah African-Americans and other minority groups were obviously denied basic civil rights and were treated quite poorly for hundreds of years, but I also believe that it does give minorities a sense that they can't achieve something on their own without anyone else's assistance. Additionally, and I hope this doesn't become interpreted the wrong way, but I must say that I would feel uneasy if I knew a member of a minority group who was less qualified than me for, say, law school (I hope to go to law school actually so I'm using this example) or for a job, was accepted/hired simply because of their race. Who really knows what happens behind the scenes and we'd like to think that people get in on their own merit regardless of race, but on the other hand, because active discrimination has been such a problem for many minorities, I can understand why affirmative action has been implemented. Affirmative action can inadvertently lead to greater tolerance and understanding, and it gives members of minority groups a chance since many of them are worse off and can't afford secondary education. So I guess I really don't know what to think about affirmative action . I see glaring benefits and glaring problems all at once. Perhaps someone can give me a well-balanced take on it? Maybe they'll have it on Crossfire ;D.
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Post by visigodo on Jan 30, 2005 2:49:48 GMT -5
Yes, the U.S. does have a judicial system which one can file a suit for discrimination. Proving it in the courts is another matter. (Very difficult to come up with evidence of racism, in the work place since discrimination itself is covert)
What sucks for “IfTheLightTakesUs” is that if he did want to go to say for example Harvard. And then looked at the ratio of the student body composition, and noticed the lack of representation of Egyptians that attend this University, and so by the very definition of minority will still not grant him the same probability of acceptance another so called minority may have over him.
Again some privileges given to some minorities will not be allocated to others who by definition are minorities in society. (At least in terms of the U.S.)
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Post by IfTheLightTakesUs on Jan 30, 2005 3:00:43 GMT -5
No, definitely not. Middle Easterners have been bona fide whites in America since the 1800s, in other words, long before AA existed. Arabs are very successful and productive in the States. Also, keep in mind Asians (East Asians and South Asians) are excluded from AA. It's very simple: Middle Easterners, North Africans and Europeans are Caucasoid, thus white. What the hell, am I still misunderstanding you or something?? White is a social term with no scientific basis, as opposed to caucasoid which is a scientific term. People who are white are those who are accepted to be white by other whites. Middle Easterners and North Africans are not considered white by other whites, therefore they are not white. I hear what you're saying. But AA is mainly for blacks; Arabs do extremely well in the US, they don't need help. Personally, I'm against AA period. It's reverse racism and it gives black Americans a victim/inferiority complex. This is true, but then again blacks don't do well anywhere, ever. (semi-joking manner here) Yes, Arabs do well in the states, but with the recent anti-terrorist crap, honestly I am afraid. I don't want to have a special box that gives me minority status...that way I feel slick about fooling the system Normally I am a VERY proud and stubborn person, however logic tells me that if I put my pride away for a minute to circle in a little box with a pencil, life will possibly be much easier. Maybe it's just the area I live in (near Fairfax, VA) or something, but when white "adults" speak to me, I feel something strange, as if they have the idea of me being "one of those middle easterners" on the top of their head constantly influencing their actions. Perhaps I am being paranoid/delusional, but normally I'm good at picking up on people's emotions and feelings.
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Post by IfTheLightTakesUs on Jan 30, 2005 3:02:31 GMT -5
Yes, the U.S. does have a judicial system which one can file a suit for discrimination. Proving it in the courts is another matter. (Very difficult to come up with evidence of racism, in the work place since discrimination itself is covert) What sucks for “IfTheLightTakesUs” is that if he did want to go to say for example Harvard. And then looked at the ratio of the student body composition, and noticed the lack of representation of Egyptians that attend this University, and so by the very definition of minority will still not grant him the same probability of acceptance another so called minority may have over him. Again some privileges given to some minorities will not be allocated to others who by definition are minorities in society. (At least in terms of the U.S.) This is one of the main reasons I chose to do it in the first place. You hit it right on the head. EDIT: I spelled "one" wrong.
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Post by visigodo on Jan 30, 2005 3:14:24 GMT -5
Kid, do as Adam Smith says, “seek what's in your best interest” within all boundaries of the law. That’s why I fill out Hispanic/Latino box. These rules and boxes I have no control over, but I’ll be damned if I let some box limit my possibilities.
My advice: Look into the legitimacy of you really circling that box, and if someone who knows the law better than I informs you that you “technically” can, then do so and use it to your advantage. Good luck and I wish you well.
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Post by buddyrydell on Jan 30, 2005 3:16:08 GMT -5
Yes, the U.S. does have a judicial system which one can file a suit for discrimination. Proving it in the courts is another matter. (Very difficult to come up with evidence of racism, in the work place since discrimination itself is covert) What sucks for “IfTheLightTakesUs” is that if he did want to go to say for example Harvard. And then looked at the ratio of the student body composition, and noticed the lack of representation of Egyptians that attend this University, and so by the very definition of minority will still not grant him the same probability of acceptance another so called minority may have over him. Again some privileges given to some minorities will not be allocated to others who by definition are minorities in society. (At least in terms of the U.S.) Yes that's true. Heck, if one wants to get technical, ethnicities of southern and eastern European ancestry would be minorities, not by race of course, but numerically. In fact, groups such as Italian-, Irish-, and Polish-Americans are some of the least represented groups in the Ivy League. It seems that white Catholics don't fare so well. I'm not suggesting that affirmative action should necessarily be applied to these groups either, but I do think the Ivy League should take a closer look at its recruiting practices and student body composition. From what I understand, Jews and Asian-Americans are over-represented in the Ivy League compared to their share of the U.S. population, whereas white Catholics as I mentioned are vastly under-represented. This is where I become torn with the issue of affirmative action because I see that groups who, racially speaking are minorities, are over-represented (in this case Asian-Americans) but I also acknowledge that Asian-Americans have faced quite a bit of discrimination and affirmative action has been implemented in order to prevent more of this. As for Hispanic- and African-Americans, the same practice has occurred but they are more numerous, so their fair share of the population is better-represented. White Protestants (WASPs) often fare well not only because they're the most dominant group in society (both in terms of numbers and actual political power), but because they also often benefit from nepotism, which is, frankly, bullsh*t. Take a good look at our president and you'll see what I mean LOL. It's all so damn complicated, which I guess is why we're talking about it. Thus, I think that, for example, because the term "minority" seems to apply to minority groups that the U.S. sees as minority groups (in a racial sense), regardless of the fact that other groups who are racially white are still minorities who have less political power than the dominant group of whites (WASPs), Catholic whites really take a hard hit from the Ivy League, and I just think that maybe the system could take a closer look at this, that's all I'm saying. Anybody understand what I'm saying?
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Post by visigodo on Jan 30, 2005 3:25:56 GMT -5
Excellent post buddyrydell. Believe me academia is starting to take a hard look into the best way of allocating entrances into Universities for their student bodies, as we speak. Several articles have been published on this, the debate still continues. What the general consensus currently seems to be is; that the current system has flaws, and needs to be corrected.
By the way: The word “minority” will soon be a misnomer, since according to U.S. statistics points to whites no longer representing the majority of the population in the U.S. towards the middle of the 21st century.
Will their still be affirmative action then? Who knows…
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Post by BabylonLion on Jan 30, 2005 8:47:51 GMT -5
Abyad and Asmarani are white and tanned respectively. And, those words apply to Europeans and Arabs whenever the word fits the situation. Asmarani is especially held in high regard, and is considered the most beautiful, alot of pop songs are made about "Asmarani".
When referring to "Blacks" a different word is used. "Sud" or "Aswad" is fitting to blacks. Sadly, the word "Abeet" is used to refer to blacks and it carries the negative connotation of meaning "slave". "Abeet" in comparison, is similar to how the word N*G**R is used in the U.S.
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Post by Solomon on Jan 30, 2005 15:31:02 GMT -5
What the hell, am I still misunderstanding you or something?? White is a social term with no scientific basis, as opposed to caucasoid which is a scientific term. People who are white are those who are accepted to be white by other whites. Middle Easterners and North Africans are not considered white by other whites, therefore they are not white. White has always been synonymous with Caucasoid, but it's been used as a social term as well. Do you think most European-Americans actually know that there are 'Caucasians' outside of Europe? I doubt it. I don't like what 'white' implies, either. Nobody has white skin, nobody (save albinos). I don't blame you for checking 'African-American' box, I'd probably do it too. It's easier for me because my mom is German, and she is as white as white gets. So most people take me for the average American Ashkenazi, and I'm usually accepted, albeit as a Jew (not a "genuine white"), but close enough.
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Post by k5125 on Jan 30, 2005 15:59:27 GMT -5
I hate the term white, but if its here to stay, then I don't really consider arabs to be separate from that term.
I would rather see the term completely done away with though.
What I would like to know is how to other non arab middle eastern (or asiatic) populations view themselves or europeans?
To Kurds view europeans as white? Do Sephardic Jews? Do Iranians? Do Armenians? Do Azeris?
Or how does the average american view a sephardic jew? Most americans don't even know what a sephardi is unfortunately.
But does anybody really think that if your average American saw actor Hank Azaria, they would view him as "non white" or a "person of color"?
Oh yeah, and Solomon, I completely agree with your comments about Ms. Shohat. She is way psycho.
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Berter
New Member
Et si on fait un tour ensemble, Nouna!?
Posts: 6
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Post by Berter on Jan 30, 2005 16:00:48 GMT -5
Always well-informed Melnorme, I've never heard of Arabs referring to Europeans as 'white' compared to themselves - but perhaps 'pale', or 'fair'. Arabs were aware of the fact that europeans were whiter than them; In the arabic litterature there is a word that has been used recently during the last war on Iraq, it is Aalaj (plural of Elj). Possible meanings of this word: (1) red whites (like the russians (from ross, rouje, ...) (2) fair/pale or extremely whites. Like the rest of the world do. ;D I think the word Al firinja (Frogs~Franks) was used to call the northwest europeans (french, germans, ...). the south east europeans were called Al roum (the romans). Actually, they call SS-A blacks in comparison to them,
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Post by k5125 on Jan 30, 2005 16:23:19 GMT -5
Do you think the Moors viewed Spanish people as "white"?
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Berter
New Member
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Posts: 6
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Post by Berter on Jan 30, 2005 16:29:27 GMT -5
Do you think the Moors viewed Spanish people as "white"? The moors viewed the spaniards as whiter than them.
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