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Post by Igu on May 4, 2005 14:06:59 GMT -5
Frankly speaking,I hope that one day in near feature Berbers kick out Arabs from their homeland! I do not plan such a thing for arabs, and most berberists don't either. we are just for the respect of our culture and costums, and obviously we also militate for free speach aganist islam. I don't want my children to study arabic, I don't want them to be forced to study Islam, I want them to be berbers, But if they want to be muslims no problem, I'll just ban them. El-hamdoulillah, Many Kabyles are leaving islam, they either become a-religious or christians (macha allah!!). It's just the beginning.
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Post by zain on May 5, 2005 14:49:47 GMT -5
that is a social conflict in north Africa between Berber speaker (minority) and Arabinized Berber (the majority ) so both of them are actually Berber not arab , we arab have no economic interest ,nor political interest in north Africa ,in other meaning it does not matter to us ,if they wont to be arab and join the arab league ,or if they wont to be Berber or European or African ,it is all up to them , their identity is in their hand not in our. i feel sad for what is happening there , but i should state it clear that we have no business with any thing going on in north Africa ,incase if any one thought the conflict is between arab and Berber.
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Post by alexandrian on May 5, 2005 20:46:08 GMT -5
that is a social conflict in north Africa between Berber speaker (minority) and Arabinized Berber (the majority ) so both of them are actually Berber not arab , we arab have no economic interest ,nor political interest in north Africa ,in other meaning it does not matter to us ,if they wont to be arab and join the arab league ,or if they wont to be Berber or European or African ,it is all up to them , their identity is in their hand not in our. i feel sad for what is happening there , but i should state it clear that we have no business with any thing going on in north Africa ,incase if any one thought the conflict is between arab and Berber. Is Egypt the only North African country other ARabs consider to be "Arab"? What about Libya?
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Post by mike2 on May 5, 2005 20:47:46 GMT -5
I really would like to know how many actual Arabian Orientalids there are in the Maghreb and Egypt and how many are just Arabized Berber/Egyptian natives.
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Post by SensoUnico on May 6, 2005 2:09:31 GMT -5
Wouldn't that be nigh impossible to tell? The Arabic influence in language and religion have been in the West, I think that is what maghreb means in Arabic, for some hundreds of years. The language and religion would have made it a suitable place for Arabic speakers from other parts of Africa and Asia to immigrate to, just as during the Moorish occupation of Iberia many Syrians, Iraqis and other Arabic speakers made Spain home. Being in that language and religion orbit basically made the West like many Arabic speaking countries. It is inevitable.
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Post by topdog on May 6, 2005 2:24:19 GMT -5
that is a social conflict in north Africa between Berber speaker (minority) and Arabinized Berber (the majority ) so both of them are actually Berber not arab , we arab have no economic interest ,nor political interest in north Africa ,in other meaning it does not matter to us ,if they wont to be arab and join the arab league ,or if they wont to be Berber or European or African ,it is all up to them , their identity is in their hand not in our. i feel sad for what is happening there , but i should state it clear that we have no business with any thing going on in north Africa ,incase if any one thought the conflict is between arab and Berber. I agree here, the same holds true for the Sudanese, little if any of the 'Arab' countries in North Africa are real Arabs.
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Post by KLI on May 6, 2005 3:23:18 GMT -5
I guess arabs arent liked as much as they used to be lol
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Post by alexandrian on May 6, 2005 14:52:58 GMT -5
I agree here, the same holds true for the Sudanese, little if any of the 'Arab' countries in North Africa are real Arabs. Egypt, however, does have a very strong Arabic identity, and unlike other North and East African countries, it is actually regarded as ARab by other ARabs. I think most ARabs consider Maghrebis Berber and consider Sudanese and Somali black Muslims.
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Post by mike2 on May 6, 2005 15:16:06 GMT -5
Egypt, however, does have a very strong Arabic identity, and unlike other North and East African countries, it is actually regarded as ARab by other ARabs. I think most ARabs consider Maghrebis Berber and consider Sudanese and Somali black Muslims. So does that mean that the majority of Egyptians are actual Arabs or does it mean they are Arabized Egyptians? I don't mean culturally or lingustically. I mean ethnically or racially.
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Post by zain on May 6, 2005 15:25:16 GMT -5
Is Egypt the only North African country other ARabs consider to be "Arab"? What about Libya? Egyptians are part of our life ,you find them everywhere even in the T.V their culture dominated the arab world in modren history (movies , songs, literatures ...) ,also their arabic accent is widely understood. and they have the largest arab population ,Libyan have a small population ,not well known . since the majority of north African think they belong to the arab world ,arab of the east also see north African as arab (in a culture meaning not in a racial meaning ,arab are not aware of races) .
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Post by alexandrian on May 6, 2005 18:23:52 GMT -5
So does that mean that the majority of Egyptians are actual Arabs or does it mean they are Arabized Egyptians? I don't mean culturally or lingustically. I mean ethnically or racially. If you mean to ask if the majority of Egyptians are descended from soldiers of the ARabian invasion in the 700s than that is not true. Egyptians are not ethnically "Arabs" just like Iraqis, Syro-Lebanese, or Maghrebis aren't either. There is no doubt that Egyptians have naturally a strong genetic connection and similarity with people of the ARabian penninsula. THis you can infer from just looking at them. However, this is just because they inhabit the same region and I'm sure the original egyptian stock bore the same similarities to inhabitants of Arabia. There was little genetic in put from Arab invaders however you do see a natural connection between the two groups.
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Post by mike2 on May 6, 2005 19:42:54 GMT -5
I'm just curious if there is any scientific consensus on from where/from what place the majority of the modern Egyptian population came into Egypt. I've heard the Sinai theory and the Punt theory. Of course it could be both.
But if the Punt theory is right, a couple of conclusions can be drawn based on what one believes about the racial character of the Egyptians. Namely, either:
1.) The Egyptians from Punt were Aethiopids. OR 2.) The Egyptians from Punt were Caucasian immigrants from Arabia Felix (the Yemen). OR 3.) The Egyptians from Punt were a hodgepodge of the aforementioned Aethiopids and Southern Arabians.
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Post by alexandrian on May 6, 2005 19:57:18 GMT -5
I'm just curious if there is any scientific consensus on from where/from what place the majority of the modern Egyptian population came into Egypt. I've heard the Sinai theory and the Punt theory. Of course it could be both. But if the Punt theory is right, a couple of conclusions can be drawn based on what one believes about the racial character of the Egyptians. Namely, either: 1.) The Egyptians from Punt were Aethiopids. OR 2.) The Egyptians from Punt were Caucasian immigrants from Arabia Felix (the Yemen). OR 3.) The Egyptians from Punt were a hodgepodge of the aforementioned Aethiopids and Southern Arabians. Stop giving credence to ridiculous theories. The ancient egyptians were like the modern Egyptians. Modern Egyptians fit in easily in S. Arabia, not in Ethiopia. You saw zain saying that other ARabs consider Egyptians to be the center of the Arab world. Why the hell did u bring "Punt" and "Aethopids" into it? I don't see the relation at all.
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Post by mike2 on May 6, 2005 20:03:44 GMT -5
I don't think it's ridiculous to speculate. Unless you have reason to believe the Egyptians were lying or making stuff up when they said they came into Egypt from Punt. Through Sherlock Holmes, Arthur Conan Doyle once said that, "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
That's what I'm doing. But in order for the process of elimination to work in investigating something like the origins of the Egyptians, you have to set all the theories on the table, even if you don't believe in them. All is speculation anyway. Just narrowing down the possibilities into something that makes sense.
I didn't say the Egyptians were Aethiopids. I just said that it is a theoretical conclusion that could be drawn. It's not necessarily the correct one. The only way I know of that Egyptians could have entered into Egypt from Punt and still be Caucasoid is if they originally came into Africa from either a.) the north of Punt, but then why would they backtrack north again? OR b.) from southern Arabia across the sea. In order to be Caucasian, the Puntite Egyptians would have had to have come into Punt from either the north or the east, because the west and south is Negroid (and maybe even Khoisanid at that time) territory.
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Post by alexandrian on May 6, 2005 22:39:40 GMT -5
What relevence does that have to a discussion about Egypt and the Arab world. Furthermore, what makes you think the Egyptians came from Punt. I believe that if true, it is merely saying that because that is where the NIle originated, and Egyptians based their life on the Nile. Do you seriously think that Egyptians could track where they came from? If they felt such a brotherhood to Punt, why didn't they express it? Why did they regard themselves as a completely different race?
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