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Post by Josh on Mar 12, 2004 1:17:41 GMT -5
Most everything that can be called Western "civilization" can be traced back to Rome - including what's considered a standard man's haircut (Celts and Germans wore their hair long, or spiked, etc - notice how "trendy" youth fads tend to be more like barbarian styles). Spiked as in the way that punks wear their hair?
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Post by galvez on Mar 12, 2004 5:20:13 GMT -5
I believe that anything which had a practical use (technologies, science or political ideals but not styles of painting or religion or architecture), would probably have arose anyway because it had happened independantly, in other parts of the world. I will concede this point. Although who knows how long it would have taken for the North to reach where it is today without the foundations laid by the South (it's easy to think that it couldn't be any other way than what we have now, but this is an illusion). Certainly, the character of what we call "Western civilization" would have been much different. Hypothetically, so many things "could have" happened.
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Post by johnfrench67 on Mar 12, 2004 5:53:29 GMT -5
Without Galileo's contributions to the development of the scientific method and physics, The modern scientific method is based on induction, which was devised by Francis Bacon.
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Post by galvez on Mar 12, 2004 6:50:35 GMT -5
The modern scientific method is based on induction, which was devised by Francis Bacon. Controlled experimentation and mathematics as the language of nature are two aspects of the "scientific method" (which is a composite of different sub-inventions) which Galileo played a major role in developing. These two aspects are as modern as ever. Bacon, however seminal his work was, has been much less influential.
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Post by johnfrench67 on Mar 12, 2004 8:58:39 GMT -5
Controlled experimentation and mathematics as the language of nature are two aspects of the "scientific method" (which is a composite of different sub-inventions) which Galileo played a major role in developing. These two aspects are as modern as ever. I don't see what mathematics, a deductive enterprise, has to do with the scientific method, which is an inductive enterprise. Scientific hypotheses are arrived at through analogical reasoning. They are not analytical truths like 1+1 = 2. Bacon's formulating of the inductive basis of the scientific method makes him at least as significant as Galileo, your dismissive concluding statement notwithstanding.
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Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 12, 2004 13:18:11 GMT -5
Bacon’s claims as pioneer scientific thinker are clear, but to reduce the modern scientific method to his version of induction is a significant exaggeration.
Bacon’s loudly announced views concerning the need for a new logic have led to a closer association of his name with induction than is credible. Inductive reasoning did not originate with Bacon nor does the process developed by the natural sciences since his day derive directly from his formulation. Encyl. Britannica. .
The key issue is the specific nature of Bacon’s concept of laws (or forms as it was expressed in those days).
In modern physics, the laws are the expression of functional relationships which exist between phenomena, universal and necessary relationships of quantitative nature, while the Baconian forms consist in geographical-mechanic conditions; that is, they are essences contributed by structures and movements not determined by phenomenal relations. Adolfo Levi : Il pensero di Francesco Bacone
Bacon’s did not seek to determine quantitative relations, but to discover the inmost essence of the physical world…. To construct what are now called explanatory hypotheses for phenomena, such as the mechanical concept of heat and the wave theory of light. Alfred Taylor : Francis Bacon
This is a tremendous achievement, but way before it’s time, and his influence on the development of modern science is consequently less than one might think. Descartes' deductive system was more of an influence on Newton than Bacon.
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 12, 2004 13:21:00 GMT -5
I will concede this point. Although who knows how long it would have taken for the North to reach where it is today without the foundations laid by the South (it's easy to think that it couldn't be any other way than what we have now, but this is an illusion). Certainly, the character of what we call "Western civilization" would have been much different. Hypothetically, so many things "could have" happened. I don't question that foreign intervention gave the Franks a boost. But I still deny the existence of one European civilisation because of the different character of Europeans. I just don't believe that a people's actual character can spread by contact. I think it is useful to compare the civilisation of northern Europe to that in Japan and Korea. Altaic-speaking East Asians learned from the older civilisation of the subtropical Chinese, but without becoming a part of a common Chinese civilisation. Koreans and Japanese were also feudal societies. The origin of the Korean civilisation was at around 300 BC. In Japan civilisation took place between 300 and 400 AD by the arrival of the Yayoi. At around 400 AD there emerged the first Japanese Empire under the Yamato. The Japanese were therefore 100 years behind the Old Chosun in their first unified kingdom. This was at around the time of the Frankish expansions in western Europe. The Franks expanded from a centre of their own instead of migrating into foreign territory, like the other Germanic tribes who attacked the Romans. Which proves Frankish centralisation. These same sort of territorial expansions in the Korean Peninsula mark the beginning of civilised Korea (and the arrival of new immigrants in Japan from Korea). In Europe north of the Alps and the Pyrennees, the Franks also show the emergence of a new civilisation in Europe.
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Post by galvez on Mar 14, 2004 15:13:22 GMT -5
I don't see what mathematics, a deductive enterprise, has to do with the scientific method, which is an inductive enterprise. I wrote that Galileo played a crucial role in making controlled experimentation a staple of scientific endeavor. This was a crucial step because after Galileo scientists decided they could manipulate the environment to make the conditions for learning more about the world. Do you deny the role of controlled experimentation in the scientific method? Through the use of mathematics one can establish a scientific theorem which proves a particular thing. This is how Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose proved a Big Bang singularity based on general relativity. "Galileo, perhaps more than any other single person, was responsible for the birth of modern science." -- Stephen Hawking Anyway, you didn't bother to answer Sandwich's post regarding the way you have made an exaggerated claim by reducing the scientific method to mere induction.
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Post by galvez on Mar 14, 2004 23:45:54 GMT -5
Dear "John French": While it's nice to debate historical influences and the contributions of various groups to world civilizations, it's a waste of time dealing with people repeatedly entering this forum with different screennames in order to disrupt the discussions and further some psychological need for vengeance. Some time ago you wrote a letter to Alex Linder claiming, "l will take my chances in a prison cell rather than be conscripted to fight for some ugly propagandist scumbag like Norman Podhoretz." This is tough talk from someone who is afraid to even use his real name for the somewhat obscure (except to some hard-core neo-Nazis) website VNN and to confront the Southern Europeans he harasses online without resorting to a dozen fictitious screennames. Like many White Nationalists, you are an online coward. Oh, and another thing: you are banned -- again. My advice for you is to stick to writing cheesy letters and to continue posting at White Nationalist forums. You are not welcome here, nor are any other cowards who open multiple accounts to pester others anonymously. For those who refuse to grow up, there is VNNForum. Dodona is for mature discussion about race, anthropology and history -- not "one-upping" people while living in momma's basement and writing to 40-year-olds how suicidal you feel between bouts of online harassment of good-natured Southern Europeans who have grown out of such games. Sincerely, Galvez
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Post by xxx on Mar 15, 2004 6:43:34 GMT -5
By Moorish Spain I meant al-Andalus, a term designating a cultural and historical period and a geographical area of Arab political domination. My apologies if the shorthand caused offense. No offense at all. My apologies to you if my question suggested that I felt offended. I think that your exposition is well formulated. The Arabs were a tiny minority of rulers, and I doubt very much that if there were any Arabs cultivating the lands, even around Cordoba and Seville, they were of any significance at all. The initial army of Muslim "invaders" which entered the Peninsula in 711 AD was formed in its entirety by Berber troops lead by Berber general Tariq. The army in itself lacked of an significant importance in number, as it was not meant to be an army for an invasion, but as a support for a rebellion. The Berber army crossed into the Peninsula as part of a treaty with the Visigothic party of the witizans. They were helped by the Visigoth Governor of Ceptem (Ceuta) to cross the Strait and to help overthrow King Rodrigo. Therefore, the traditional account of a Moorish army which defeated a Visigoth army becomes that of a "civil war" like battle helped by foreign intervention. Furthermore, Historians suggest that in the moment of the battle more Visigoths fled the side of King Rodrigo to join the rebels. After the onslaught of Rodrigo's army, the kingdom fell into chaos and turmoil. Many Visigoths started raiding and sacking the kingdom, which had remained largely unprotected, and others stayed siding with the Tariq's Berbers. The more disciplined Berbers continued advancing and conquering, finding little to no resistance across Hispania. Muza, Governor of Afriqi-ya, sent additional troops to support the advance of Tariq's army. The myth of the Visigoths retreating to the northern mountains and starting a resistance up there is just that, a myth. Most Visigoths accepted islamic rule and converted to Islam to keep their lands and possesions. In fact, many remained as new muslim visigoth governors of their regions, just by changing religion and their names later to an arabicized form. This conversion from Christianism to Islam cannot, and should not, be viewed with the eyes of a modern Christian, since at that time Islam was thought of being a sort of Christianism (the Church even went to consider them as heretics, therefore Christians). We should also remember that the Christian roots of the Visigoths were Arrian, a Christian heressy which was the official religion of the Visigoths until 589 AD, when King Recaredo organized the Concilium of Toledo in which he converted to Catholicism together with many Visigoths. Therefore, 120 years later, converting to another "heretical form of Christianism" would have not signified much of a big change. Some years later after the "invasion", the composition of Moorish Al-Andalus was as folllows: A ruling class of Arabs at the top, a military class made up by Berbers, and a mass people of Muladis (Spaniards converted to Islam, whether they were of Visigothic or Hispano-Roman origin), and Mosarabs (Spaniards who had remained faithful to Christian faith, and lived under islamic rule as tributaries --dihmmis--, and who later would 'arabicized' their culture to some extent). There were also a ruling class among the Muladis, and these were the old Visigoth and Hispano-Roman nobles who converted (such as the case of the Banu-Qasi family, descendents of the Hispano-Gothic comites Casio, and who ruled in Zaragoza and Navarra with the help of Cordoba). Likewise, the Mosarabs also retained a ruling class of their own, descendent of the old comites, and this trend continued as it was until later times. It is attested that Toledo was taken by the Northern Christians with the help of a rebellion lead by the Mosarab comites of Toledo. Later, some unrest among the Berbers unhappy with their situation provoked some rebelions, after which many Berbers returned to North Africa. As a consequence the Arab ruling class formed a more reliable army, known as Guardia Eslavona, made up by Slavic, Frankish and Scandinavian slaves captured in naval raids and military incursions, and who had converted to Islam. I.e. another type of Muladis. There was, as you mention, an Ummah phenomenon. But I fail to see its significance in racial terms, unless we concede the existance of a massive intelectual and artistic class through the Islam, similar in number to the total population. No doubt Philosophers, Alchemists, Physicians, Architects, etc... travelled in and out and across the Islamic Empire. I'll leave the Almoravid and Almohad influence for a later post. [Edit]It might also be interesting to add that there were some Muladi uprisings too, one of them of great importance where one Muladi succeeded to hold a considerable territory against the Moors and keep them at bay for a long period of time. This rebel was the son of Christians converted to Islam, and he later converted back to Christianism. It is one chapter that should be added to the many of the Reconquista, but which is widely ignored. He made himself strong in a city which accounts call Bobastro, which has not been identified but I believe was in modern days Extremadura.
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 15, 2004 7:15:08 GMT -5
Hmmm. "Mozarab" sounds a lot like "Must'arab", which was what autochthonous Jews from Damascus, Syria were called.
Actually I think "Must'arab" literally means 'Arabized'.
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Post by xxx on Mar 16, 2004 5:34:08 GMT -5
Hmmm. "Mozarab" sounds a lot like "Must'arab", which was what autochthonous Jews from Damascus, Syria were called. Actually I think "Must'arab" literally means 'Arabized'. You are right. Castilian Mozárabe, Catalan Mosàrab and Portuguese Moçarabe are the "romancized" words for Must'arab. And yes, it means Arabized. These people retained their Christian beliefs and identity, and were dihmmis (tributaries to Islam) under islamic rule. Under these conditions, they adopted many social attitudes of their islamic rulers, like clothing habits. The status of dihmmi (sp?) is granted in islamic countries to what they call "the people of the Book", therefore Hebrewists and Christians. In some countries it has been widely respected (e.g. Jews in Saddam's Iraq), but in others not (Christian Copts in Egypt). After the Northern Christian kingdoms adopted the Roman standard and official rites, they kept the old "Visigothic rite". A few Masses are still officed in this rite nowadays in some cities like Toledo and Valencia. The rite is known as Visigothig or, more correctly Mozarab. Likewise Muladi the romancized word of Arabic Muwaladun (there is a separation in the word which I don't remember where it goes), which I don't know what it means in Arabic. Any idea? Perhaps simply "conversed"?
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 16, 2004 11:51:28 GMT -5
"Muladi" sounds like it has something to do with 'birth'. For example, in Hebrew, "Moledet" means 'birthplace', and "Chag Hamolad" means 'the holiday of birth', AKA Christmas.
Perhaps the converters to Islam were said to have been 'reborn into Islam', or something like that.
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Post by galvez on Mar 16, 2004 15:43:58 GMT -5
I don't see what mathematics, a deductive enterprise, has to do with the scientific method, which is an inductive enterprise. Bertrand Russell, in The History of Western Philosophy, makes it clear that you are not only wrong but a total ignoramus regarding the scientific method: The part played by deduction in science is greater than Bacon supposed. Often, when a hypothesis has to be tested, there is a long deductive journey from the hypothesis to some consequence that can be tested by observation. Usually the deduction is mathematical, and in this respect Bacon underestimated the importance of mathematics in scientific investigation (545)."John French" -- whose real name is Scott -- is so pathetic that he claimed to be dienekesp of the forum Nordish Anthropology to take credit for the posts of Dienekes Pontikos. (Bear in mind, Dienekes, that an ass is claiming to be you! Don't say you were not warned). I recently found out that he has had suicidal tendencies from a woman he fell in love with, so it's apparent that he suffers from some type of mental illness. It's one thing to have one symptom of mental problems, it's another to have a whole constellation of maladaptive traits. Suicidal Scottie: please quit entering this forum with various screennames. White Nationalists who harass Southern Europeans in petty online games and who compare Sicilians to "mulatto[es]" are not welcome here.
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unknown
New Member
banned
Posts: 29
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Post by unknown on Mar 17, 2004 18:22:17 GMT -5
I will concede this point. Although who knows how long it would have taken for the North to reach where it is today without the foundations laid by the South (it's easy to think that it couldn't be any other way than what we have now, but this is an illusion). Certainly, the character of what we call "Western civilization" would have been much different. Hypothetically, so many things "could have" happened. What you should have written, SPANIARD: "...Although who knows how long it would have taken for the North to reach where it is today without the foundations laid by Greece and Rome.." There is no SOUTH, only Greco-Roman civilization. Your Iberian ancestors were as barbaric as the Germans were before the Romans civilized them.
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