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Post by Mouguias on Mar 10, 2004 16:52:42 GMT -5
Caucasoid You might have linked www.white-history.com/refuting_rm/or more specifically, www.white-history.com/refuting_rm/9.html Refuting Racial Myths supports your ideas on ancient Romans. I would love to make a grounded refutation of "refuting", but I am just a lazy-and-stupid West-Med chimp. This site was apparently unfolded by a member of this forum, Melnorme. Tell me, Melnorme, do you really believe this things?
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Post by xxx on Mar 10, 2004 16:59:25 GMT -5
There is a way to see if the Black Legend used by the Protestants, was racial. Did the Protestant countries accept converts from Islam or Judaism into their congregations, like they accepted converts from Catholicism? If they accepted converts from these religions into their congregations, then I don't see how it can be racial. But I can't say wether they did or not. I don't remember the exact details, but it goes roughly like this: After the "Reformation", Luther told Jews that, since Christianism had been reformed to the old scripts, they had no longer a reason to remain in Hebrewism and should adopt Christian Protestantism instead. As they refused, he turned anti-Semite. In fact the Spaniards accused Protestantism, and as you see not without a good reason, of having judaicized Christianism. As for Moors... well, there were none. Before you, or anyone else wonders I'll make a couple of thing clear, briefly, about Jews and Moors in Spain. A Moor was not a racial naming, but a cultural one. Muslims in Spain were Spaniards converted to Islam. The "invasion" was actually a rebellion of a party of Visigoths against the elected king, helped by a contingent of Moorish (actually Berber) troops. Remember this is the year 711 AD, and Islam would probably be seen by many, since came anew, as a "version" of Christianism (in fact Spain had passed from and official Arrian heressy to Catholicism not that long ago). And so, the so called expulsion of Moriscos was in fact the expulsion of racial Hispani of Muslim religion. If in doubt, I have a long article which gives an accurate account of the events; if anyone wants it, PM me giving me your email. For the Jews, the expulsion of the Sephardim is usually taken as 1492 as the most important, but there were other dates and, probably, the events of 1319 were of higher significance. In terms of efficiency it was unparalleled. Some interpretation for DNA data I've read (from a Jewish source) give the lowest levels to Spain for Sephardim, and higher to nations like England, The Netherlands, and cities like Hamburg or Copenhaguen. This is where many Sephardim ended up after leaving Spain. My only doubt is if that data is specific only to Sephardim. If not, it would mean a much higher strain in those countries (there were no Ashkenazim in Spain).
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Post by Mouguias on Mar 10, 2004 17:01:48 GMT -5
One more thing, the alphabet, and FIGURES also (don`t forget figures), are key inventions in civilization, not just one more improvement that inevitably is discovered sooner or later. Runes and ogham never became a true alphabet, they were seen as some sort of magical knowledge, only known by wizards, sorcerers, druids or whatever. For writing to become a useful tool, it must overcome this stage, and be seen as just another means of communication. Runes, as far as I know, were not native of northern Europe, but just another Mediterranean invention. Anyone interested can google "Iberian alphabet" and check the similarities...
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Post by xxx on Mar 10, 2004 17:07:59 GMT -5
Caucasoid You might have linked www.white-history.com/refuting_rm/or more specifically, www.white-history.com/refuting_rm/9.html Refuting Racial Myths supports your ideas on ancient Romans. I would love to make a grounded refutation of "refuting", but I am just a lazy-and-stupid West-Med chimp. This site was apparently unfolded by a member of this forum, Melnorme. Tell me, Melnorme, do you really believe this things? You mean refuting_kemp? It's from Alex, a Portuguese: www.geocities.com/refuting_kemp/Alex has done an excellent job exposing kempist and nordicist lies and deceits. It is sad that some person like him has to come out defending his nation and people of such filthy attacks... but of course fighting for your nation and people is always an honour. I suggest you guys pay him a well deserved vist.
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 10, 2004 17:09:22 GMT -5
This site was apparently unfolded by a member of this forum, Melnorme. Tell me, Melnorme, do you really believe this things? What? Of course not. The guy who made that site pretty much hates my guts, actually, for reasons I have no control over.
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 10, 2004 17:22:20 GMT -5
Runes and ogham never became a true alphabet, they were seen as some sort of magical knowledge, only known by wizards, sorcerers, druids or whatever. For writing to become a useful tool, it must overcome this stage, and be seen as just another means of communication. It didn't matter to the needs of the Germanics wether the script was borrowed or native, so the present script was adopted and then there was no need for a native writing system to evolve. I was under the impression that their use was indigenous to the Germanic regions but that the runes were inspired by the characters of the Roman alphabet.
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 10, 2004 17:37:49 GMT -5
You mean refuting_kemp? It's from Alex, a Portuguese: www.geocities.com/refuting_kemp/Alex has done an excellent job exposing kempist and nordicist lies and deceits. It is sad that some person like him has to come out defending his nation and people of such filthy attacks... but of course fighting for your nation and people is always an honour. I suggest you guys pay him a well deserved vist. What has Portugal got to do with wether the Early Latins were Nordid? Everyone knows that Portuguese language is descended from Latin. And nobody here has suggested that the Portuguese are partly Negroid.
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 10, 2004 17:55:53 GMT -5
I see how one of my sentences caused a misunderstanding, and I have edited it to make it clearer what I meant to say at the time. I have quoted the original sentence so that anyone can still see what I had originally wrote.
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Post by Mouguias on Mar 10, 2004 18:05:37 GMT -5
>>I was under the impression that their use was indigenous to the Germanic regions but that they were inspired by the characters of the Roman alphabet
I haven`t made any serious study on the matter, but I have now before my eyes "La Huella Celta en Espana e Irlanda" by Ramon Sainero, which happens to be a lousy book on many grounds, but which encloses some engravings of Nordic runes, such as the so-called "Carinthia engraving". Sainero compares this and other engravings with Iberian and Etruscan alphabet, and through columns (Nordic-Anglian-Iberian-Etruscan) it is quite obvious that the symbols are quite much the same...but Etruscan is much more ancient, I guess. Iberians borrowed their symbols from Etruscans, and these apparently from Phoenicians.
Melnorne I guess I got misled at the fact that you enclosed the link in another thread...I see, you were just quoting his words! I`ve checked the site and well, the fellow really HATES you!!
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Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 10, 2004 19:16:29 GMT -5
Interesting: More so than the “my bum is sore from anal probing” conspiracy theories being discussed in parts of this thread anyway. I also thought the phrase “perfide Albion” was French, attributed to Napoleon in fact, although Jacques Bossuet (1627-1704) speaks of “la perfide Angleterre”. You got a Spanish Dict. of Quotations eufrenio? England has many virtues but hypocrisy is certainly one of its vices.
The idea that there was no North African influence in Moorish Spain seems a bit strange to me. The whole point of the Islamic “Ummah” was that people could move about and feel at home from Grenada to Cairo and beyond. Perhaps no farmers settled in Spain, but it would surely be very odd if no craftsmen did, not to mention those pursuing more elevated careers. As to the Sephardim, there was a great pressure on them to convert after the reconquista. Did none of them do so? Is the DNA study in question congruent with others on the subject? Finally to cite a medic as a Spanish cultural hero does suggest some acknowledgment of the Islamic influence in the development of that science.
The discussion becomes a caricature of what it is criticizing when we have an opposition of Mediterranean and Western Civilization. Nobody is suggesting that Visigoths were sources of enlightenment or that the Fourth Crusade had a positive effect. But we are all using advanced communication devices, speaking English, and referring enthusiastically to a pattern of shifting religious and national alliances over thousands of years, a pattern that we are all reasonably familiar with. That is Western civilization and it’s no use pretending that it’s just a terminological invention. This site can I hope escape from the sordid origins of internet discussion on the obscured issue of human biodiversity – but I can see it’s not quite there yet.
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 10, 2004 20:01:42 GMT -5
As to the Sephardim, there was a great pressure on them to convert after the reconquista. Did none of them do so? Is the DNA study in question congruent with others on the subject? Yes, but I think for most of them, Spain was the last place they wanted to be. www.jgsws.org/images/sephmap.jpg
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Sandwich
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La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 10, 2004 20:20:42 GMT -5
True. Understandable really. They weren't trusted not to reconvert. A few seem to have managed to hang on in the Balearics.
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Post by xxx on Mar 11, 2004 17:51:17 GMT -5
The map starts counting after the 1492 edict. The events of 1319 (or was it 1391?) were at least as important if not more important. There were general attacks on Jewish quarters in almost all cities. In Toledo (following an attack by Jews over the Cathedral), Seville, Barcelona, Valencia, Majorca, ... after these events Jews were allowed to leave. Many left Valencia and Catalonia heading to Provence. I don't know how it went in the Kingdom of Castilla, but Sevilla is said to have been depleted, and when more than 100 years later the Inquistion arrived to check for false converts, they found that there were none as no Jews were left. A few accounts... A man wanted to have his child's foreskin cut because of acute fimosis (not sure this is the right word in English... when your pennis skin is so tight you can't "peel it off"... oh well, whatever). He went to a doctor, but since both the man and the doctor were converted Jews (or descendents of converted), he said it was better not to do it, fearing that the Inquisition might get them all for it. In some area in Extremadura, some conversos started making beef sausages, so that other people would see them eating sausages (which in Spain are always made of pork). I believe they still make beef sausages in that area.
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Post by xxx on Mar 11, 2004 18:01:16 GMT -5
The idea that there was no North African influence in Moorish Spain seems a bit strange to me. Before I give you an answer to this, what do you understand by North African influence? Please, try to answer in racial terms, and be as exact as you can. As a note, Moor is not a racial term.
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Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 11, 2004 19:03:17 GMT -5
By Moorish Spain I meant al-Andalus, a term designating a cultural and historical period and a geographical area of Arab political domination. My apologies if the shorthand caused offense. Hourani (A. Hourani, fellow of St.Anthony’s College, Oxford, in his A History of the Arab Peoples, Harvard UP) suggests that around Seville and Cordoba, Arabs were important as landowners and cultivators and that the Army included Arabs and Berbers as well as mercenaries from abroad. He also tells us that Berbers from the mountains of the Maghreb lived in the areas beyond the irrigated plains by small-scale agriculture and pastoralism. The immigration of Berbers was apparently larger and more sustained than Arab immigration from the east. Concerning the conquest, he tells us that the troops were at first Arabs and Berbers, later joined by a second wave of soldiers from Syria. By the end of the 10th Century a sizeable percentage, possibly a majority of the population were Muslim (by religion of course).
Initial resistance to the reconquest was largely based on Berber troops, and the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties derived most of their support from Berbers.
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