|
Post by galvez on Mar 10, 2004 15:20:29 GMT -5
Galvez, the historical "Black Legend" that Spain´s enemies spread had to do with the Spanish Inquisition, the backwardness and obscurantism, the alleged extermination of Amerindians, the slave trade and so forth. Spain was seen as an evil empire. It was anti-catholic propaganda by protestant countries. There are serious studies on the black legend, and the racial component was not a part of it. This is not true according to the book I cited in response to Caucasoid.
|
|
|
Post by xxx on Mar 10, 2004 15:34:41 GMT -5
I believe that there is no such thing as a "western civilisation", just as there is no "European race". Western Civilisation is a term coined by English and Germans to get a share of the Mediterranean Civilisation and its consequence, the modern European Civilisation. You are right. "Mediaeval civilisation" was in fact inherited from the north. It was the people of the North who came South and destroyed it all, leading us all to a long period of darkness and ignorance. It is the first time I see someone talking of the Middle Ages in terms of civilisation. What a joke. The only civilized bits in those times were a (Mediterranean) flourishing period for courteous life, trobadours and literature in the lands of Òc (but soon destroyed by Nordic barbarians' greed), and periods of culturalisation in Courts of kings like King Alfonso X of Castilla. Yes, after roughly a millenium of obscurity the Renaissance came out from nations as Mediterraneans as Portugal, Spain and Italy. Not even then were they prepared, but they did pretty well at mimics. Of course it could... 10,000 years more isolated and I'm sure they would have succeeded in developing a little something. Eh.. there were ancient Mediterranean Civilisations before the Classical. Just a reminder. Sure. No surprises if you say it. Actually, the runes remind me somehow of a low level programming language. Oh yes, only that they forgot to take it with them when they came down South. Which is a good apology to say... well, we destroy it because it didn't suit us, and then we waited for some 1000 years more for you to repair it. But this time it suited us better, so we ain't gonna break it anymore. You mean the Germanic and Frankish Mediterranoids?
|
|
|
Post by xxx on Mar 10, 2004 15:42:57 GMT -5
Do you have a reference for this? I am curious about this claim that the English accused the Spanish of being part negroid. I don't see how would have associated Negroids with the Mediterranean or why they would have seen such mixing as "racially decadent" back then. I suspect that you are talking about a folk explanation for the darker skin of the Spanish. Not just Geoffrey Parker, but other English Historians are joining him in unveiling the truth behind the Black Legend and other lies spread about Spain by England, The Netherlands, and their henchmen (France included). The only explanation for a darker pigmentation, if one is to be given, is that we are Mediterraneans. The graphical part of it can be obtained from the frescoes left by Ancient and Classical Mediterranean Civilisations.
|
|
|
Post by galvez on Mar 10, 2004 15:47:54 GMT -5
Let me clarify a couple of things:
The "Black Legend" grew up in Italy and spread to Protestant countries later on. While it was not only about race, this passage below from Professor Parker in Philip II implies a racial component:
Spain and her rulers had seldom been popular with the outside world. In the fifteenth century a "Black Legend" grew up in Italy, which characterized the Spaniard as always cruel, proud and lascivious (and frequently "tainted" with Jewish or Moorish blood as well). As Spanish power penetrated deeper into Europe, the Black Legend spread with it. "Non placet Hispania," wrote Erasmus -- "I don't like Spain." And his reason was simple: there were too many Jews. And where Erasmus was content to scoff, others were more vitriolic in their attacks, making the conquering Spaniards out to be inferior in moral fiber, cultural achievement and religious commitment. The persecution of Protestantism by the Habsburgs merely intensified the campain against Spain. Atrocities committed by the Spanish armies at Antwerp in 1576 or by the Spanish colonists in America were immediately used to reinforce the Black Legend, and these and all other "crimes" were inevitably laid at the door of Philip II by his Protestant biographers. Those who read with relish Fray Bartolome de las Casas's famous book A Very Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies would also enjoy the anecdotes of Orange, Brantome and Watson. Just as almost every edition of Las Casas until the nineteenth century was published in a Protestant country (of 139 editions, forty-six were Dutch, thirty-seven French and thirteen English) so until 1800 almost every biography of Philip II was written outside Spain by a believer in the Black Legend (202-203).
The book centers around Philip II, but the author clearly indicates that the Black Legend had a racial component coloring the view of the Spaniards. Other factors as well were a part of it, such as the alleged atrocities committed by Spaniards.
|
|
|
Post by caucasoid on Mar 10, 2004 15:48:37 GMT -5
Don't take it for granted. It's still to be seen if Phoenicians were Semites... or Nords. Do you have a real anthropologist or archeologist (like Coon) to support that? Do you know that Phoenicians spoke a West Semitic language similar to Hebrew (they are sometimes said to have been dialects) and that they worshiped according to a Semitic religion? Do you know that Phoenicians were genetically West Asian?
|
|
|
Post by caucasoid on Mar 10, 2004 15:53:46 GMT -5
Galvez, the historical "Black Legend" that Spain´s enemies spread had to do with the Spanish Inquisition, the backwardness and obscurantism, the alleged extermination of Amerindians, the slave trade and so forth. Spain was seen as an evil empire. It was anti-catholic propaganda by protestant countries. There are serious studies on the black legend, and the racial component was not a part of it. "Black" was used in the intended meaning of "dark, evil".I only found out about this racial version of the black legend in Internet forums. It´s probably a modern version. ;-) It was in many ways similar to the current anti-USA propaganda: no matter what the USA do, they are always wrong, cunning, materialistic, ruthless and so forth. All powerful countries have their own black legend. We Spaniards referred to the UK as " la pérfida Albión". If you are right and not Galvez then this would be similar to the concept of the "black Irish". (Obviously the Irish were not seen as Negroids.) But I don't really know much about it to take one side or the other.
|
|
|
Post by caucasoid on Mar 10, 2004 16:00:02 GMT -5
Let me clarify a couple of things: The "Black Legend" grew up in Italy (as Spain was an occupying power there), and spread to Protestant countries later on. While it was not only about race, this passage below from Professor Parker in Philip II implies a racial component: Spain and her rulers had seldom been popular with the outside world. In the fifteenth century a "Black Legend" grew up in Italy, which characterized the Spaniard as always cruel, proud and lascivious (and frequently "tainted" with Jewish or Moorish blood as well). As Spanish power penetrated deeper into Europe, the Black Legend spread with it. "Non placet Hispania," wrote Erasmus -- "I don't like Spain." And his reason was simple: there were too many Jews. And where Erasmus was content to scoff, others were more vitriolic in their attacks, making the conquering Spaniards out to be inferior in moral fiber, cultural achievement and religious commitment. The persecution of Protestantism by the Habsburgs merely intensified the campain against Spain. Atrocities committed by the Spanish armies at Antwerp in 1576 or by the Spanish colonists in America were immediately used to reinforce the Black Legend, and these and all other "crimes" were inevitably laid at the door of Philip II by his Protestant biographers. Those who read with relish Fray Bartolome de las Casas's famous book A Very Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies would also enjoy the anecdotes of Orange, Brantome and Watson. Just as almost every edition of Las Casas until the nineteenth century was published in a Protestant country (of 139 editions, forty-six were Dutch, thirty-seven French and thirteen English) so until 1800 almost every biography of Philip II was written outside Spain by a believer in the Black Legend (202-203).The book centers around Philip II, but the author clearly indicates that the Black Legend had a racial component coloring the view of the Spaniards. Other factors as well were a part of it, such as the alleged atrocities committed by Spaniards. Thank you for this. Although it refers to racial mixture it is referring not to racial tainting in the racialist sense but to mixing with people from "dark" un-Christian religions. But I'm not sure how the Black Legend about the Spanish is relevent to Coon's claims about Negroid admixture in the Mediterranean?
|
|
Scoob
Full Member
Posts: 157
|
Post by Scoob on Mar 10, 2004 16:00:53 GMT -5
Western Civilisation is a term coined by English and Germans to get a share of the Mediterranean Civilisation and its consequence, the modern European Civilisation. Right. Germans adapted Roman civilization to their own needs. And I agree, feudalism sucked. Rome and Greece were much nicer. Germans, Huns, and others sacked Rome, but they didn't destroy it - they were more scavengers than predators. And don't forget that they would never have crossed the Alps if Rome hadn't first tried to expand itself into her lands - "For the Glory of Rome." Most everything that can be called Western "civilization" can be traced back to Rome - including what's considered a standard man's haircut (Celts and Germans wore their hair long, or spiked, etc - notice how "trendy" youth fads tend to be more like barbarian styles). But much of the Anglo-American legal system is native Anglo, including the idea of individualism and equality under the law. Rome and other Med systems have mostly operated by patronage, which continues up to today. A few lira can grease the wheels with Italian police, or a few pesos in South America, but try that in America, England, or Germany, and you'll have much less luck.
|
|
|
Post by xxx on Mar 10, 2004 16:04:17 GMT -5
Galvez, the historical "Black Legend" that Spain's enemies spread had to do with the Spanish Inquisition, the backwardness and obscurantism, the alleged extermination of Amerindians, the slave trade and so forth. Spain was seen as an evil empire. Funny that others like Calvinist Inquisition in Switzerland which, among so many other chapters, burned to the stake the Aragonese (Spanish) Miguel Servet (15??), a Scientist, Philosopher and Theologist who discovered the circulation of the blood in the lungs. Not that the Spanish Inquisition wouldn't have killed him, but it happened to exist others of which no one complains. The backwardness is a false and stupid accusation, more so when at the time Spain was more developed than any other nation in Europe. And that of obscurantism is a vague term to insult without saying nothing. The Amerindians we extermined happen to be living in The Americas today. The only extermined were the Caribes (due to contagious illnesses brought by the Spaniards with them... and unless anyone believes that Spain had the knowledge of criopreservation... the only fault was to travel there). And, much later, the Patagones in Argentina (by the already independent Argentinians who put them in reserves, just like the Nordic Anglos did in North America with all the Amerindian tribes). And, of course, the slave trade. Because we all know that Negroes in the US arrived on regular flights and with tourist visas. Actually, that was coined by France (or maybe not).
|
|
|
Post by eufrenio on Mar 10, 2004 16:10:34 GMT -5
The term itself, "leyenda negra" was coined in Spain. In modern fashion, it´s the equivalent of "bad reputation". "Legend" because the allegations were false, "black" because they were slander and threw a bad light on Spain. Again: "black" means evil, dark, disreputable. Galvez, I don´t see how the quote you posted shows there was a racial component. Of course Spaniards have always been suspected of a tinge of moorish and jewish blood. But it was not the issue behind the Black Legend. If you are right and not Galvez then this would be similar to the concept of the "black Irish". (Obviously the Irish were not seen as Negroids.) But I don't really know much about it to take one side or the other.
|
|
|
Post by xxx on Mar 10, 2004 16:14:09 GMT -5
But much of the Anglo-American legal system is native Anglo, including the idea of individualism and equality under the law. Rome and other Med systems have mostly operated by patronage, which continues up to today. A few lira can grease the wheels with Italian police, or a few pesos in South America, but try that in America, England, or Germany, and you'll have much less luck. Scoob (I take it you are the same Scoob than that at skadi), when you travel into the Mediterranean area I suggest you to try to grease a police, you'll live the experience of your life. Last year a German lorry was stopped by the Guardia Civil a few Kms far from here, just an ordinary control on cargos at the motorway toll. The driver had some irregularities and offered the Guardia Civil a tip to forget it. They were so happy that to correspond him they got him some holidays at the expense of the Spanish Government. AMERICANOS... ;D
|
|
|
Post by caucasoid on Mar 10, 2004 16:17:09 GMT -5
But much of the Anglo-American legal system is native Anglo, including the idea of individualism and equality under the law. Rome and other Med systems have mostly operated by patronage, which continues up to today. This is exactly what I mean. Of the temperate-subtropical Old World civilisations, the Germanic civilisation (including its non-Germanic neighbours like the Celts and the Poles) is the most unique of them all. All the historical school realised this.
|
|
|
Post by xxx on Mar 10, 2004 16:19:13 GMT -5
Do you have a real anthropologist or archeologist (like Coon) to support that? Do you know that Phoenicians spoke a West Semitic language similar to Hebrew (they are sometimes said to have been dialects) and that they worshiped according to a Semitic religion? Do you know that Phoenicians were genetically West Asian? Ops.. I thought it was obvious this was a joke. See, since you claimed first that the Romans were Nordics I thought you might like to take Phoenicians on a trip North for the same price.
|
|
|
Post by galvez on Mar 10, 2004 16:22:16 GMT -5
The term itself, "leyenda negra" was coined in Spain. In modern fashion, it´s the equivalent of "bad reputation". "Legend" because the allegations were false, "black" because they were slander and threw a bad light on Spain. Again: "black" means evil, dark, disreputable. Galvez, I don´t see how the quote you posted shows there was a racial component. Of course Spaniards have always been suspected of a tinge of moorish and jewish blood. But it was not the issue behind the Black Legend. Although the origins and development of the Black Legend are quite complex, Professor Parker makes it clear that there was a racial component. If we are going to disagree on this point, that is fine. I'd rather accept what is written by a prominent historian than what is written in an online forum. But anyway, you do have a point about the Legend encompassing a lot more than race -- so I partially agree with you.
|
|
|
Post by caucasoid on Mar 10, 2004 16:28:55 GMT -5
There is a way to see if the Black Legend used by the Protestants, was racial.
Did the Protestant countries accept converts from Islam or Judaism into their congregations, like they accepted converts from Catholicism?
If they accepted converts from these religions into their congregations, then I don't see how it can be racial.
But I can't say wether they did or not.
|
|