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Post by Springa on Feb 20, 2004 19:46:32 GMT -5
There are about 2 points on your post that are correct, but most of it is absolutely wrong. But this part, particularly is so absurd it can only be a joke. I guess Al Bundy and Al Gore are arabs too, then, right? Give me a break... Read about the subject before posting this kind of stuff. For instance AL(LIKE AL PACHINO,AL CAPONE).Al is arabic for the.
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Scoob
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Post by Scoob on Feb 20, 2004 20:44:23 GMT -5
I've noticed that Brazilians have sort of a dual value system about race. On the one hand they (like all other Hispanics I've met) always make sure to tell white people how they have a brother/sister/aunt/father who is "very white." So that's a status symbol to them, at least amongst American whites.
On the other hand, they value darkness, blackness, and mixture. Most of them are part black or part S Amerind - and their culture has a lot of black influence (so does USA culture, actually). Many or most Brazilian Catholics practice elements of Voodoo (African Yoruba religion, in other words), etc.
Apparently it's unfashionable to be totally white in Brazil. A similar tendency has existed (to a lesser extent, maybe) in the USA since the Civil Rights era and demonization of white males.
I'd love to hear more info on this from Brazilians in this forum. Are my comments right? Wrong? Got something to add?
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Post by Fawwaz on Feb 21, 2004 15:27:21 GMT -5
I am aware of no evidence from ancient bones or otherwise that would suggest modern-day populations of the ME are noticeably different from ME Neolithics.
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Ioulianos
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Anegnon,Egnon,Kategnon
Posts: 199
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Post by Ioulianos on Feb 21, 2004 19:36:30 GMT -5
Bari was names by the Greek "Varion".It was the name of the city when it was a greek settlement.Most of the cities of south Italy and many in the rest mediterranean coast have kept their Greek names (Neapolis-Napoli,Rigion-Regio,Kallavrya-Kalabria,Messini-Mesina,Antipolis-Antimp,Efessos-Efes,etc)
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Post by Morenita2g on Feb 24, 2004 7:09:01 GMT -5
To sum this all up yes a lot (not every single one) of Southern Itailans have arab in there blood lines.When the arabs enter italy there was a lot of race mixing.The same with other mediterrean countries such as Portugal,Spain and Grecce.They are all very similar in backround and also looks. And i rely on REAL italians to tell me there story not some people who never been or are not from BARI!!! And yes Bari is and will always be an ARABIC name.There is also a city in Sudan called Bari i believe. The word mafia is also arabic. I could go on for days but you cant talk to a prowhite brick wall!!!!
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Post by geirr on Feb 24, 2004 7:22:37 GMT -5
To sum this all up yes a lot (not every single one) of Southern Itailans have arab in there blood lines.When the arabs enter italy there was a lot of race mixing.The same with other mediterrean countries such as Portugal,Spain and Grecce.They are all very similar in backround and also looks. And i rely on REAL italians to tell me there story not some people who never been or are not from BARI!!! And yes Bari is and will always be an ARABIC name.There is also a city in Sudan called Bari i believe. The word mafia is also arabic. I could go on for days but you cant talk to a prowhite brick wall!!!! There are hundreds of words in English of arabic origin You have proved nothing www.zompist.com/arabic.html
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Post by Graeme on Feb 24, 2004 8:50:59 GMT -5
I love Italy and the Italian language. I have travelled extensively in the country including Sicily and its nearby islands. Motya is a interesting island connected by causeway at low tide to Sicily and it contains many remains of Phoenician buildings. If anything Sicily is more Greek in heritage and culture than Berber or Norman even though Norman architecture predominates. The Phoenicians were defeated by both Greeks and the Roman Latins and the people enslaved. Not many "Arabs" survived the occupation of Sicily by Spanish groups.
What the racists do not acknowledge is the genetic contribution that Europeans particularly Meds have made to North Africa and the Levant. Barbary pirates many of them captained by Dutch or Norwegians frequently kidnapped Europeans especially fair skinned women to be sold at the slave markets of Sale. Ireland, Southern England, Scotland as well as Med countries were attacked by Barbary pirates.
I tend to believe my own eyes to what anyone says, and the "Arabness" or very dark skinned element that others purport to see, I have not seen. Actually it is more of a Greek look than anything else. I have not been to Pantelleria, an island close to Africa, and suppose the inhabitants to be very North African looking. The difference between the North and the Mezzogiorno is overexaggerated. Most Italians are Med/Alpines more Alpine and Central European like Austrians in the North and more East Med in the South. Blue eyes occur quite frequently everywhere in Italy and blond hair sporadically if that is important to you. Frankly dark brown hair, brown eyes and a non pink tinged skin does not make people negroid, mongoloid or genetically Middle Eastern. Bones are bones and since Meds and Nords are fairly similar no one came say what the ancient Neolithic people or Megalith builders really looked like. When facial reconstruction is made assumptions are also made from the type of burial. Ango Saxons are shown as blue eyed, fair and blond. The actual person could have been black haired, green eyed and tanned in complexion as are some Dutch and Germans even today. So don't assume too much over some dried bones.
I do not care whether Italians have Berber, Phoenician or whatever genetic inheritance from hundreds of years back. One thing is saying it does not constitute proof. Italians are an urbane, cultured, intelligent and good looking people.
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Post by Melnorme on Feb 24, 2004 9:08:52 GMT -5
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Post by AWAR on Feb 24, 2004 9:15:17 GMT -5
To sum this all up yes a lot (not every single one) of Southern Itailans have arab in there blood lines.When the arabs enter italy there was a lot of race mixing.The same with other mediterrean countries such as Portugal,Spain and Grecce.They are all very similar in backround and also looks. And i rely on REAL italians to tell me there story not some people who never been or are not from BARI!!! And yes Bari is and will always be an ARABIC name.There is also a city in Sudan called Bari i believe. The word mafia is also arabic. I could go on for days but you cant talk to a prowhite brick wall!!!! How many more usernames will you change to always try to push your idiotic propaganda. I frankly don't give a shit if Arabs are Negroid or not, and I care even less if Italians have Arab blood. My consern is to keep the quality of the posts on this board at a high level. You're not discussing or replying with well-supported facts, you're continuing to just push your agenda regardless of the dozens of replies you got. I'm giving you a chance to post a bit more. Unless you rise to the standard of other posters here, you're going to be banned. If you make another topic regarding Italians and Arabs you're going to be banned.
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Post by Morenita2g on Feb 24, 2004 15:04:17 GMT -5
Ill come up with the facts dont worry
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Scoob
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Post by Scoob on Feb 24, 2004 15:04:17 GMT -5
Ill come up with the facts dont worry
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Scoob
Full Member
Posts: 157
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Post by Scoob on Feb 24, 2004 15:19:14 GMT -5
What happened to my post? It's like "The Fly." Anyway...
The whole Mediterranean area has been cultural and genetically somewhat continuous for quite a long time. Southern Italians do have some Arab blood. This is pretty well-known. Southern Europe also has a trickle of African blood - the area was geographically continuous around 10k years ago, when the Sahara desertified and people moved north.
As far as genetics goes, even the Irish have recent (in the last 7000 years) African admixture.
I don't like this girl's attitude, which smacks of Brazilian anti-white resentment, but she is somewhat right. Racial purists go too far and start to deny reality... Europe was not contained in a little glass bubble at any period in history.
The problem is that modern European political agendas (against immigration from outside Europe) cause people to lie about the past. Who said that the first casualty of the war was the truth? In any case, they were right.
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Post by Morenita2g on Feb 24, 2004 15:33:49 GMT -5
Tell me why Southern Italians,Spainards and the Portuguese look different from other Europeans. The moors ruled europe for 400 years and you mean to tell me that there was no race mixing.Give me a break. That is just like saying that the english slave masters didnt (rape) mix in with the african slaves. Arabs and Italians have similiar characteritics. Look at the eyebrows,shape of the eyes,the noses. And a lot are hairy just like the arabs. Also the hair texture of a lot of italians. Plus the cultures are very similiar. The kissing on the cheek,the foods,some of the music from Napoli.Enough of all that ..Here are the facts about italians african and arab ansestry.After this i argue no more.
Sickle cell disease in Sicily.
Roth EF Jr, Schiliro G, Russo A, Musumeci S, Rachmilewitz E, Neske V, Nagel R.
The chemical and physical properties of haemoglobin S derived from homozygotes for this haemoglobin in Sicily were examined, as well as some erythrocytic characteristics. Sicilian Hb S was identical to that found in USA black patients in electrophoretic mobility on both starch and citrate agar media, solubility, mechanical precipitation rate of oxyhaemoglobins, and minimum gelling concentration, as well as by peptide mapping and amino-acid analysis of all beta-chain peptides. Taken together with the presence in Sicily of African blood group markers and certain historical considerations, it seems clear that the source of Hb S in Sicily is Africa. While the clinical severity in nine Sicilian children did not seem remarkably different from the disease in the USA, the most severe and fatal complications were not seen. Mean Hb F Was 10.5% and 2,3-diphosphoglycerate (2,3-DPG) values were higher in Sicilian homozygotes than in black USA counterparts (21.79 mumol/g Hb vs 15.16). Red cell AT values were also slightly higher in Sicilian patients. The presence of concomitant thalassaemia was excluded by both family studies and globin chain synthetic ratios. In conclusion, haemoglobin S in Sicilian homozygotes is identical to Hb S found in USA blacks. Although the severity of the disease seems quite similar in both groups of patients, other erythrocytic properties were found to be different. Whether these factors influence severity remains to be elucidated.
PMID: 7365760 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Acta Haematol 1978;60(6):350-7
Blood group phenotypes and the origin of sickle cell hemoglobin in Sicilians.
Sandler SG, Schiliro G, Russo A, Musumeci S, Rachmilewitz EA.
As an approach to investigating the origin of sickle cell hemoglobin (hemoglobin S) in white persons of Sicilian ancestry, two groups of native Sicilians were tested for blood group evidence of African admixture. Among 100 unrelated Sicilians, the phenotypes cDe(Rho) and Fy(a-b-), and the antigens V(hrv) and Jsa, which are considered to be African genetic markers, were detected in 12 individuals. Among 64 individuals from 21 families with at least one known hemoglobin S carrier, African blood group markers were detected in 7 (11%). These findings indicate that hemoglobin S is only one of multiple African genes present in contemporary Sicilian populations. The occurrence of hemoglobin S in white persons of Sicilian ancestry is considered to be a manifestation of the continuing dissemination of the original African mutation.
PMID: 103355 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
NONE-EUROPEAN ADMIXTURE IN GENERAL
Perhaps more significant than the Negroid ancestry in southern Europeans are their Asiatic and non-European Caucasoid ancestry. From ancient Greek and Roman times (and even before) to the Turkish and Moorish invasions, southern Europe experienced gene flow from North Africa and the Near East. Italy has 6% Mongoloid Y-chromosomes, along with high levels (by European standards) of non-Caucasoid mtDNA. Mongoloid genes have been detected in Greeks. Italians have 20% Middle Eastern HG9 and 13% North African HG21. Greeks have 28% HG9 and 28% HG21, plus 3% Mongoloid HG26. One recent study even estimated that 85-100% of Greek male lineages are Neolithic (and at least some of those lineages arrived in Greece well after the Neolithic, one expects). Frequency of M and L mtDNA
Bulgaria/Turkey (2.92%) France/Italy (2.42%) Spain/Portugal (1.99%) Germany (1.14) England/Wales (.47%) Scandinavia (.47%) Scotland (.11%) Iceland (0%) Ireland (0%)
Like the Richards study, this data shows that Italians probably have four or more times the amount of non-white maternal ancestry as the English, and they probably have more than 20 times the amount of non-white mtDNA the Irish or Scottish have.
On the paternal side, one Y-chromosome from sub-Saharan haplogroup 8 was detected out of a sample of 10 Sardinians, suggesting a possible substantial Negroid paternal contribution in some areas of Italy. The same study found zero Negroid Y-chromsomes in the British Isles, out of the combined total of more than 600 sampled.
Some people have objected that gene flow between Sardinians and other Italians may be lmiited. This is irrelevant for my purposes. The Sardinians are Italians. If the Sardinians have black ancestry, then one can't claim "Italians don't have black ancestry". In any event, there is ample evidence for black genes elsewhere in Italy.
Additionally, the apparently Mongoloid Y-chromosome haplogroup 26 is present in Italy at a frequency of 6%, suggesting Italians have higher total levels of Mongoloid admixture than do most or all North West European nations.
It should go without saying that, yes, the Sicilians have black ancestry. Again, RM wants us to believe, based on the retraction of one flawed mtDNA study, that Sicilians are "pure" while Northern Europeans are "not pure". Even if there is no trace of sub-Saharan mtDNA in Sicily, that doesn't mean Sicilians have no Negroid ancestry. It seems likely that North African males were one of the main vectors of Negroid gene flow into Sicily. Negroid ancestry in North Africa is largely on the maternal side. So, even if they have a significant sub-Saharan autosomal complement, Sicilians might be left with no sub-Saharan mtDNA markers and few or no sub-Saharan Y-chromosome markers.
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Post by Melnorme on Feb 24, 2004 15:42:43 GMT -5
Tell me why Southern Italians,Spainards and the Portuguese look different from other Europeans. ... Arabs and Italians have similiar characteritics. Look at the eyebrows,shape of the eyes,the noses. And a lot are hairy just like the arabs How about this - they've always looked like that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor
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Post by Melnorme on Feb 24, 2004 19:45:50 GMT -5
Makes more sense for this to be here.
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