Aybek
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by Aybek on Mar 15, 2004 7:15:26 GMT -5
It's pretty stupid for a country that has borders in the Middle East to want to join the EU. The EU's human rights regulations are a nightmare for a nation that has to deal with Islamic terror. Yes. But EU's human right regulations can be flexible in the case of terror as in the case of UK. I am not even talking about "the champion of human rights" (USA) regulations. It is shameful. The answer to the question wheather Turkey will join the Eu lies within the new scheme that is currently being promoted in Brussels called Concentric Circle membership. Right now we have 15 EU memebers (very soon to officially become 25). Among those members the 12 (everybody but UK,Denmark,Sweden) belong to the inside circle,the Hard Core of the Union. The core is formed of the countries that participate in all major EU policies. The Scandinavians and UK eg chose not to adopt the euro and the consequence is that they do not participate in the European council on Currency matters etc. Denmark as well chose to stand out of the common defence policy (in other words the emerging euro army). Those 3 countries plus the 10 newbies will form the outside circle of EU.As the integration process evolves more and more circles will be formed to describe the status quo of the decission making hierarchy among the EU states. What does this have to do with Turkey? Yes. That is why I do not want to become a 3rd class member. Turkey is not a European country. We have a somewhat different past, different culture and different religion from the rest of Europe. Turkey can be a very good ally and trade partbership with EU but should remain outside of it. I think Turkey will never become a member of EU. But EU came to Turkey and said that Turkey may become a candidate for membership in 1999. After this Turkey applied for full membership. But now, it seems like some European politicians and some countries are not honest about the issue. European public opinion and governments should show their real stance about the membership of Turkey and we should regular Turkey-EU relations in more rational way as soon as possible. Otherwise I am afraid EU-Turkey relations would get in a very bed position which would be against of both parties interets. A very late "NO" answer would push Turkey towards USA and may be to Euroasia which would result a very demaging results for EU interests.
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Post by Graeme on Mar 15, 2004 8:15:29 GMT -5
Turkey is European. You forget that a chunk of Turkey is in Europe. We Australians tried to take a small piece of Turkey in 1915 and had our arses kicked and we are good fighters. If you want to re Hellenise Turkey expect to die in large numbers.
It might surprise you Greeks, but the western Turks are exactly like you, physically and genetically. If they are not Europeans then neither are you. Take away their stupid religion and some of the costumes, they are you. That Kemal Mustapha was a Turk not Armenian or whatever. Turks can be fair and blue eyed too. You Greeks seem to mistake language and religion with race. Now if you were talking about eastern Turkey now that is a different question. A lot of those easterners were Armenians or Kurds who have been Turkicised. I think you Greeks ought to get real, Turks would rather go to Germany or the Netherlands than anywhere in the south; much better job prospects, higher living standards and good social welfare schemes.
Personally I don't think Turkey is ready for entry into the EU, and that it is a backward country and the immigrants or guest workers are of a very poor quality. It would be better to establish businesses there to keep these people from immigrating to Europe proper.
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 15, 2004 8:27:25 GMT -5
It might surprise you Greeks, but the western Turks are exactly like you, physically and genetically. If they are not Europeans then neither are you. Take away their stupid religion and some of the costumes, they are you. That Kemal Mustapha was a Turk not Armenian or whatever. Turks can be fair and blue eyed too. You Greeks seem to mistake language and religion with race. Now if you were talking about eastern Turkey now that is a different question. A lot of those easterners were Armenians or Kurds who have been Turkicised. I think you Greeks ought to get real, Turks would rather go to Germany or the Netherlands than anywhere in the south; much better job prospects, higher living standards and good social welfare schemes. Graeme, read the thread. Nobody disagrees with you. Ataturk had European ancestry, though.
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Post by Artemisia on Mar 15, 2004 9:44:02 GMT -5
Who said that western Turks look like Greeks? Sure, there a some who do, but you can't generalize this.
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Aybek
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by Aybek on Mar 16, 2004 2:09:59 GMT -5
Graeme, read the thread. Nobody disagrees with you. Ataturk had European ancestry, though. It seems like Melnorme is an expert on history and know the hidden facts about Ataturk. Some people in this forum has serios ide-fixes and creates conspiracy theories. Do you know when Ataturk was born and where? I am sure that you do not even know exact answers about it but you become an expert about Ataturk's family past. ;D There were lots of Turks who were living in Balkans in Ottoman times. Most of them had been brought there by Ottomans from Anatolia and some of them from Crimea. Even today there are Turks live in Balkans for example in Bulgaria there are 1.2 million Muslim 800.000 of them are ethnically Turk. In Greece (150.000) and Macedonia and Kosova there are still Turks. Just a quick note; the name Bulgar cames from a Turkic people. They established a state in today's Bulgaria in the 7th century. Their leader was called Asparuk. Their best leader's name was Omurtag Kagan. In mid 9th century they accepted Christianity and later by growing number of Slav migration they were assimilated into Slav population. Today, Turks who live in Bulgaria are the remaining ones who had been send by Ottomans after the conquest of Bulgaria. Europe's map in 1860 Where is Greece? Can you see it? My family root is also coming from Balkans, Macedonia. They were big land owners who were send to Balkans from Anatolia at around 15th century and they were raising Sipahi troops for the Ottoman army. Tsselonik is now in Greece and Ataturk was born in there. So what? Does it mean that he has a Greek/Armenian or Kurd (??) and now European (!) ancestor. You could not even decide which one. ;D When Ataturk was born in 1881 Tsselonik was in the Ottoman Empire. I am not angry about what you are writing but I am mostly shocked about some of yours intellectual level. And I am trying to learn your real intentions. You are blind and you do not want to see the facts. Some of yours have serious inferiority complex I am afraid. Do not be ridiculous.............
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Post by RebelSoul on Mar 16, 2004 8:15:31 GMT -5
Jesus Aybek, you got a real problem don't you? Here are some facts to chew on:
- Mustafa Kemal had a mother of Armenian origin and a father of Kurd origin. In his lineage there is also Greek blood, like it or not. And he was born in a city with predominately Greek population (65% in the timeframe we are talking about) and a Greek culture.
- There are no Turks today in Greece. There is a rather large (about 120.000 people) Muslim minority in Thrace, but they are predominately Pomaks, not Turks. And we have a Muslim minority because we didn't slaughter them as the Turks did to the Christian and Greek minority that survived the 1920's.
We do agree on something though: that Turkey is not a European country and shall never become one, even if it is accepted into EU. We all should bear that in mind.
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Aybek
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by Aybek on Mar 16, 2004 10:37:19 GMT -5
Jesus Aybek, you got a real problem don't you? Here are some facts to chew on: - There are no Turks today in Greece. There is a rather large (about 120.000 people) Muslim minority in Thrace, but they are predominately Pomaks, not Turks. And we have a Muslim minority because we didn't slaughter them as the Turks did to the Christian and Greek minority that survived the 1920's. What facts are you talking about? You need to learn your own history first and then get invoved into discussion. You have opinions without having knowledge. There are Turks today in Greece but although Greece is assumed as if she is a European country, she is still denying their identities. "In exchange, Turkey allowed those ethnic Greeks residing in Istanbul before October 1918—some 110,000—to remain, along with the Orthodox Patriarchy; reciprocally, Greece would allow a similar number of ethnic Turks, estimated at between 105,000-120,000, to remain in Thrace." www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/Greec991-03.htm The map of West Thrace Flag of West Thrace Web pages of West Thrace Turks: www.abttf.com/english/Mustafa Kemal had a mother of Armenian origin and a father of Kurd origin. In his lineage there is also Greek blood, like it or not. And he was born in a city with predominately Greek population (65% in the timeframe we are talking about) and a Greek culture. Do you think that your childish games can make me angry? I am very enjoying. You are sharing his ancestors between Armenians and Kurds ;D But you do not stop there and add also a little bit Greekness into it. Here you are Mustafa Kemal ATATURK. ;D Would you please tell me what Ataturk means for you? What did he do? Did you remind it? I think that is enough for you. We do agree on something though: that Turkey is not a European country and shall never become one, even if it is accepted into EU. We all should bear that in mind. Yes. We are not European and we should be out of EU by respecting mutual interets of both parties. I am competely agree with you Mr. RebelSoul about this issue.
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Post by RebelSoul on Mar 17, 2004 2:25:20 GMT -5
There are Turks today in Greece but although Greece is assumed as if she is a European country, she is still denying their identities. "In exchange, Turkey allowed those ethnic Greeks residing in Istanbul before October 1918—some 110,000—to remain, along with the Orthodox Patriarchy; reciprocally, Greece would allow a similar number of ethnic Turks, estimated at between 105,000-120,000, to remain in Thrace." Puleeee-ase, let's be a tad bit serious for a moment here, shall we? Stop throwing around flags, propaganda sites and rubish, they are missing the spot: that all this is fabricated Turkish propaganda. Pomaks ain't Turk, chew on that. Can't blame me for trying, can you? ;D Isn't that a treat? your only national hero isn't even of Turkish ancestry ;D ;D ;D Mass murderer, established the fascist secular state of Turkey, still in place today, by enforcing institutions as the National Committee, cleared out the remnants of Armenian and Greek left after the genocide and the population exchange, created an ethnic identity for a people - the Ottoman "Turks" - who had none and forged enough "evidence" to support this farce. Also, he repelled the Greeks trying to take over the whole Asia Minor (a host of idiots, politicians and generals, the bunch that doomed the Greek cause in Asia Minor) created an ethnic state out of the rabble left by the collapsing Ottoman Empire, played cunning political games that strenghthened the international position of his country - all in all an extremely capable man. Figures he wasn't Turk, although named "Father of the Turks" Oh, you got me wrong: True, Turkey is not a European country and prolly never shall be. But it's not in the best interest of Turkey to remain out of EU. Why would all your politicians be so eager to get you in, otherwise? Try to think about it...
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Post by Graeme on Mar 17, 2004 7:18:26 GMT -5
You Greeks are missing the point about Turkish people and Kemal Mustapha. If he wasn't Turkish why are the rest? In other words there is probably no one in Turkey who is actually ethnically, racially Turkic, just various conquered people Turkicized and islamised. So they are all bloody Pomaks most of them descended from Christians.
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Ioulianos
Full Member
Anegnon,Egnon,Kategnon
Posts: 199
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Post by Ioulianos on Mar 17, 2004 11:34:40 GMT -5
You Greeks are missing the point about Turkish people and Kemal Mustapha. If he wasn't Turkish why are the rest? In other words there is probably no one in Turkey who is actually ethnically, racially Turkic, just various conquered people Turkicized and islamised. So they are all bloody Pomaks most of them descended from Christians. The point is that there is a muslim minority in Thrace that includes 3 different ethnic groups:Pomaks,who are speaking a slavic language with many greek and turkish elements,turkish-speaking and muslim gypsies.Thats why Greece is calling them "muslim minority".Turkey considers all of them turks.si,the whole thing is about the number of the turkish minority in Greece.
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Ioulianos
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Posts: 199
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Post by Ioulianos on Mar 17, 2004 11:38:00 GMT -5
"In exchange, Turkey allowed those ethnic Greeks residing in Istanbul before October 1918—some 110,000—to remain, along with the Orthodox Patriarchy; reciprocally, Greece would allow a similar number of ethnic Turks, estimated at between 105,000-120,000, to remain in Thrace." Today,there are 2000 ethnic Greeks remaining in Costantinople.What happened to the rest of them?
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Post by citadel on Mar 17, 2004 15:08:34 GMT -5
I am surprised I rarely hear this objection to Turkey's EU membership:
Nearly every European state save Albania and maybe Bosnia has a natural growth rate (not factoring in or out-migration) hovering around 0%. Turkey, while not in the league of sub-Saharan Africa, is still experiencing significant population growth.
As it stands now, Turkey would be second to Germany in the size of a potential EU delegation. In twenty years it would be the largest. In 50 years it is very likely that Turkey would have 100 million people! (While Germany would be down to 70 million). As I understand it (I am American so I may be wrong about some of this), the EU is essentially governed by the principle of representation according to population, with adjustments only given to very small members such as Malta and Luxembourg. Turkey would be the only EU nation that would be continually gaining seats and offices, causing the rest of "Europe" to continually cede power.
Europe could adopt the position that a country cannot even be considered into the EU until it is demographically compatable. Also, I saw in a recent survey that a large number of Turks (a third) essentially hold "jihadist" views. This is lower than nearly every other Muslim state, but still intolerable in the framework of the EU.
Also, if Turkey joins, expect a whole new line of discourse on how "European" Morocco is.
I also wonder what Europeans think of a potential Russian membership in the EU.
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 17, 2004 15:20:10 GMT -5
The point is that there is a muslim minority in Thrace that includes 3 different ethnic groups:Pomaks,who are speaking a slavic language with many greek and turkish elements,turkish-speaking and muslim gypsies.Thats why Greece is calling them "muslim minority".Turkey considers all of them turks.si,the whole thing is about the number of the turkish minority in Greece. In the Balkan theatre of the absurd, the Slavic speaking Pomaks are educated in Greek, Turkish and ...Arabic
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Post by Artemisia on Mar 18, 2004 15:54:41 GMT -5
Russia is fully European and deserves to join the EU anytime if it wants to. If Turkey joins, why shouldn't Syria and Lebanon join as well? Heck, why not include Canada and most Latin American countries in the EU......their culture is more European than Turkey's!
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Post by kynikos on Mar 18, 2004 18:06:02 GMT -5
I think that there is one more VERY important issue here, and one that hasn't received the attention it deserves. It is estimated that 20% - 40% of the Turkish population is ALEVI muslim, which is a sect quite distinct from mainstream Turkish clerical Islam, with some really interresting (and I might add, noble) aspects. This population group is completely oppressed within Turkey, because its presence gives the lie to the official Turkish policy whereby you can only be Secular Nationalist or Muslim Nationalist Paradoxically, the Alevis, because of their liberal views are very ardent Kemalists, and put up with all sorts of state oppression because of a sence of duty to Mustafa Kemal! Most of the political dissent comes from their quarter too, with many commies, etc... They readily acknowledge that Kemal was not "pure" turkish, and think of him as half-armenian or half-greek with no problem! They seem to see Turkey as a mix of "Ottoman" and non-Ottoman, and consider the Ottomans as oppressors of the TURKISH people in the past!! One of the reasons their case is coming into the spotlight is the more liberal conditions they have found in Germany which have allowed some cultural expression. Talk about the theatre of the absurd, Artemidoros! All this was initially brought to my attention by a Turkish friend of mine, who although from deepest Anatolia (Gaziantep) is light-haired and green-eyed, and looks Czech. Other people I know from the same area look like dark Pakistanis. ===== Graeme, this is OT, but the Anzacs got their asses kicked mainly because of their abysmal leadership rather than the abilities or otherwise of their foe.
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