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Post by Tautalos on Feb 6, 2004 12:57:31 GMT -5
Having in mind that - ethnically, Turks are not Indo-European; - racially, many of them do not look European at all; - Turkey is part of Asia, not Europe; - that country is dominated by a non-European and unversalist semitic-rooted religion, i.e., Islam; - there is still a diplomatic conflict between a real European nation, Greece, and Turkey; - the Turks still oppress an ethnic group, which happen to be Indo-European, the Curds;
I see no reason why Turkey should be admitted in Europe.
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Post by Agrippa on Feb 6, 2004 15:17:49 GMT -5
Having in mind that - ethnically, Turks are not Indo-European; - racially, many of them do not look European at all; - Turkey is part of Asia, not Europe; - that country is dominated by a non-European and unversalist semitic-rooted religion, i.e., Islam; - there is still a diplomatic conflict between a real European nation, Greece, and Turkey; - the Turks still oppress an ethnic group, which happen to be Indo-European, the Curds; I see no reason why Turkey should be admitted in Europe. Right, it would be the irony of history if this nation Europe and my ancestors fought so long against would come under this circumstences in the European Union. The only good thing would be that this would make it even more probable that the union would split up or change itself in a totally different direction under the pressure and idioty of the to-day decisions of the EU-ropa establishment.
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Post by Artemidoros on Feb 6, 2004 15:22:51 GMT -5
It is not a matter of what I wish but I believe that Turkey will not enter the EU. Not Turkey as we know it. It will not be admitted unless it becomes genuinly democratic. That means the army will stop getting involved in politics and there will be no official prevailing ideology. The opression of the citizen by the state will cease and the people will have real choices. IMO it means only one thing for Turkey. It will split in at least two halves, the western part eventually joining the EU or whatever will have by then replaced it. Strangely, I am aware that I agree with many Turkish generals. I do not agree with those of you guys who think it is possible to reconquer Constantinople or Asia Minor and repopulate it with Greeks. There are almost as many people living in Istanbul as in the whole of Greece and the birthrate of the Turks is higher than that of the Greeks. Your hypnosis is over, you may wake up now. I must add, I would like to see the people of Turkey (at least the western part) re-embrace the part of their rightful cultural heritage they had to abandon and Constantinople and Asia Minor return to Europe in that respect.
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Post by Artemidoros on Feb 6, 2004 15:25:35 GMT -5
This thread belongs to futurism more than history
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Post by Silveira on Feb 6, 2004 15:37:49 GMT -5
Turkey acts in many ways as a buffer state between Europe and the Middle-East. Western Turkey is very westernized and is not unlike many parts of southern Europe. Most people in Turkey are not very religious but some of the younger generation may be swayed into islamism as a way of venting their frustrations. Strategically, and for obvious reasons, Turkey has sought an alliance with the Anglo-Saxon powers rather than with the new Europe or the Arabs.
For Turkey, joining the EU would imply losing its national sovereignty to nations it has traditionally distrusted (ie. most of Europe, especially the central bloc which controls EU policy making) and this might provoke a nationalist or islamist (or both) reaction amongst the population, especially if the economic expectations of EU membership are not met in the short term. The bitter dispute with Greece, and especially the situation in Cyprus has to be resolved before they can even contemplate membership, in my opinion.
Regarding immigration, the effects of joining the EU (which doesn´t mean entering into the Schengen zone) might not be as bad as many say. Turkey not being in the EU has not prevented the migration of Turks to Germany and elsewhere during the last 40 years. Similarly, in the early 1980s there were fears expressed in several European countries that Portugal joining the (then) EEC would precipitate an influx of Portuguese emigrants, something which did not happen. In fact, most Portuguese emigrated to Europe long before we became members of the EEC. In contrast, Turkey is a much larger nation than Portugal and has a long border with a very volatile and unstable part of the world.
Regarding civilizational differences, we must recognize that they also exist within Europe itself, although the tendency has been for these diferences to lessen over the years. Even today, a wide cultural gap still separates a Portuguese or Spaniard on the one hand, and, say, a Dane or Norwegian on the other. The differences engendered by the gap between the impoverished populations of certain Eastern European countries and the wealthy citizenry of North Western Europe is even greater, without mentioning civilization differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Western Christendom (both Catholic and Protestant).
I do not think Turkey should join the EU. It should remain a "buffer" state between Europe and the Middle East. This, of course, does not rule out special trade agreements and bilateral cooperation, when such is mutually beneficial.
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Aybek
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Post by Aybek on Mar 12, 2004 6:29:59 GMT -5
Yiannis, I admit I would like to see Constantinople back in Europe. And by this I mean the separate option, not the joining of Turkey as a EU membe. Oh dear, I guess that being a Hispano I can't avoid wanting to reconquer anything anytime It is nice to see intellectual Greeks such as Yiannis in this forum as majority of Greeks. Mynydd, Hispano the conquerer, I advise you do not mix Turks with Aztecs and Incas. Read history, get some current information and after speculate about the future. Generally I like Spanish people but in every society there are "broken down" ones like you. You are not a good man!! But do you think you are a good Christian? I see some other forumers have some racist point of views. I do not care at all. It is their problems. Personally, I do not want to become a member of EU since I do not want to be a member of a declining power in the future. I do not want to share my national sovereignty with Brussels. I am in favor of special ties with Europe but outside of it. It seems like this is the best interests of both parts.
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Post by RebelSoul on Mar 12, 2004 7:53:44 GMT -5
Well I am Greek myself but I have no silly complexes about our (not-so-gay) common past with Turkey. Some other seem to heavily object.
To those: Think of it, lads: When Turks came in Asia Minor you could hardly distinguish them from their Mongol kin. Nowadays they look more like Greeks/Armenian/Kurdish than Turks. 14 of their Sultans were not Turks at all. Their aristocracy, descents of the Ottoman admnistration, are of Greek and Armenian origin
Hell even Kemal "Ataturk" was a Kurd/Armenian born in Thesaloniki!!!
So, even on your racial grounds (which I do not condone myself) Turkey could enter Europe.
But since this is not about race (and since racial purity is one of the greatest and stupidest lies of the aeons) we should examine Turkey culturally, politically, socially and economically.
I would agree that on all those four factors, Turkey cannot join the EU. Their social structure is antique and backwards, they loathe human rights and basic freedoms, the head of state is not their democratically elected PM but the head of the National Committee, the Army is the true master of the country, their culture lies miles away from anything resembling Europe and their economy is about 15 years behind that of Greece - and don't even compare it with Germany or France or UK.
If Turks really want to join the EU (and, probably, many of them don't as many Greeks didn't back in the late 70s when Karamanlis literaly dragged Greece into EEC) they have to try hard. Get rid of the National Committee and the ties between State and Army, modernize their society, stop oppressing the Kurds, clean out the medieval mess that is their law enforcing system, and most of all start working really hard on the progress of their economy.
Maybe, just maybe, in 10 years they are on par with the less advanced countries of EU. Maybe.
And I think it would be for ours and theirs best interest if a truly ready for EU Turkey joined the conglomerate.
But I don't think they will.
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Aybek
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Post by Aybek on Mar 12, 2004 8:17:14 GMT -5
Maybe, just maybe, in 10 years they are on par with the less advanced countries of EU. Maybe. But I am saying; I never want to become a member of EU. I am not talking about a possibility. And ther is a growing public opinion towards this way. So eveyone will be happy. Secondly, most of your thoughts about Turkey is mostly wrong since your thoughts are based on wrong information. Which countries are democratic apart from EU and USA? According to you: any country. Don't you think that the time has come to revise yourselves?
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Post by RebelSoul on Mar 12, 2004 9:33:43 GMT -5
But I am saying; I never want to become a member of EU. I am not talking about a possibility. And ther is a growing public opinion towards this way. So eveyone will be happy. As I said dear Aybek If Turks wish to become members of the EU. IF. If you don't... all the worse for you. Wrong information=information that does not agree with your view of your country, maybe? I don't think my info is wrong, it's first-hand info. I live nearby and I have visited your country several times. I know many people who live there. And I have studied Turkish politics. So, I'd say my sources are quite reliable. What are yours? I don't really understand your problematic here. But suffice to say, since Turkey wishes to join EU, it has to be as democratic as EU countries. Makes sense, doesn't it? I wouldn't even dream of "revising myself". As for my opinions... they are subject to constant revision, since I aquire more information everyday. Shouldn't you start thinking why every outsider who has a knowledge of Turkey views your country that way? Here is something to revise.
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Post by Artemisia on Mar 12, 2004 11:07:06 GMT -5
To those of you who say that the Greeks should go back to Constantinople: would YOU want to be surrounded by several million Turks in your city? Maybe you've never felt what it was like to be an outsider in a cityy where the people see you as their enemy.
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Aybek
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Post by Aybek on Mar 12, 2004 12:06:11 GMT -5
Wrong information=information that does not agree with your view of your country, maybe? I don't think my info is wrong, it's first-hand info. I live nearby and I have visited your country several times. I know many people who live there. And I have studied Turkish politics. Where did you go in Turkey? Sorry but after reading what you have written below I can not believe in that you came to Turkey and study on Turkish politics. Get rid of the National Committee and the ties between State and Army. In many European country there are National Security Council (not National Committee) as Turkey has. Greece also has one I guess......You are exaggerating the influence but I can not deny that it is uninfluential. In fact if it should not be influential (to some extent) what is the meaning of its existence? I also want to remind you that Turkey is neigbour with Iraq, Iran and Syria and the east border of Turkey is closer to Afganistan than Istanbul. Get rid of the National Committee and the ties between State and Army. You are saying that get ride of ties between state and army!!!! What do you want to say? State and government? clean out the medieval mess that is their law enforcing system. What do you mean? most of all start working really hard on the progress of their economy.. If you come to Turkey you should see that we do not have a siesta time as it is in Greece. We are very hard working during all days. You should also see that many shops, markets are open until very late. Their social structure is antique and backwards. Give me some examples please.... the head of state is not their democratically elected PM but the head of the National Committee. You are saying that Turkish elections is not democratic. Why? Do you claim that National Security Council has elected PM not voters? their culture lies miles away from anything resembling Europe and their economy is about 15 years behind that of Greece . You want to say cultural activities most probably. But I guess Istanbul is not worse than Athens in those terms. Yes you are right that our income per capita number is lower than Greece and we have income distrubution problem. But would you please tell me how much money did you get from EU? 70 billion dollar since the beginning? It makes 500 billion dollar grant if we put this money to Turkey's scale. What is your leading sectors? Do you have any dominance in European economy? Could you establish an industry? Despite the fact that Turkey has some macro economic and governmental problems still the world's 16th biggest economy. Turkey is a member of G-20. In electronics especially in household utensils such as TV, washing machine, refrigerator...etc., steel, glass, automotive, cement, textile, ceramic sectors Turkey is one of the leading country of Europe. If you wish I can post some Istanbul picts and Athens picts to compare them. I am sorry but I can say that Athens is like a village compared to Istanbul and many other cities of Turkey.
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Praetor
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Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Mar 12, 2004 13:21:37 GMT -5
Which countries are democratic apart from EU and USA? According to you: any country.
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Sandwich
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La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 12, 2004 14:44:57 GMT -5
Not all EU democracies have a democratically elected Head of State; several are constitutional monarchies.
The Greek flag is the third largest in the world after Liberia and Panama; the Greek-owned fleet is the largest in the world. At the EU level, the Greek flag is the largest flag, with 57% of the total EU fleet in 1994 (by DWT), followed by the Italian flag with 9%. The Greek owned fleet is also the largest, with 48% of the total EU fleet, followed by the UK-owned fleet, with 21%.
Ataturk’s maternal family were, as far as I can see Turkish. I have heard claims about Albanian or Armenian parentage before but have not been able to substantiate them. We are talking about ethnicity, not place of birth, aren’t we? I may be wrong, but would like some reliable information.
Putting aside personal feelings, the main reason I would not want Turkey in the EU is that the EU does not need another US stooge. The role Britain plays is bad enough already. This is perhaps not the right thread for a debate about what the EU is for, but the Franco-German role is not a historical accident, nor is the EU just about material benefits. Apart from that, democratic reform in Turkey would threaten the essence of the contemporary Turkish state, allowing the untrammeled growth of political Islam, which would itself provoke reaction from the Generals. The Kemalist heritage still needs its guardians, and until that is resolved Turkey will remain more of a problem for the EU than an asset.
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 12, 2004 15:02:38 GMT -5
It's pretty stupid for a country that has borders in the Middle East to want to join the EU. The EU's human rights regulations are a nightmare for a nation that has to deal with Islamic terror.
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Praetor
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Graecus in Fennia
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Post by Praetor on Mar 13, 2004 12:04:48 GMT -5
The answer to the question wheather Turkey will join the Eu lies within the new scheme that is currently being promoted in Brussels called Concentric Circle membership. Right now we have 15 EU memebers (very soon to officially become 25). Among those members the 12 (everybody but UK,Denmark,Sweden) belong to the inside circle,the Hard Core of the Union. The core is formed of the countries that participate in all major EU policies. The Scandinavians and UK eg chose not to adopt the euro and the consequence is that they do not participate in the European council on Currency matters etc. Denmark as well chose to stand out of the common defence policy (in other words the emerging euro army). Those 3 countries plus the 10 newbies will form the outside circle of EU.As the integration process evolves more and more circles will be formed to describe the status quo of the decission making hierarchy among the EU states. What does this have to do with Turkey?
This plan prepares a place in the periphery of the union,the final outcircle,for states like Russia and Turkey. Russia is of course a european state in terms of culture but it features two major drawbacks concearning its future as an EU member state.
1.Russian governors cannot decide wheather their country will follow an imperial foreign policy,much in accordance to their former soviet superpower status or a policy based upon the EU standards of behaviour (a mixture of intergovermental and supernational collaboration) 2.Russian Federation has an enormous non-european territory .EU governors and public opinion find the idea of Vladivostock being a part of the EU ridiculous.
Turkey shows some analogy to Russia as you 've already mentioned. The maximum that those two states (and perhaps Georgia,Armenia etc) can gain is the position of a "semi-meber" in league with EU. Something like "You are with us but not one of us".
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