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Post by Melnorme on Mar 16, 2004 8:43:50 GMT -5
The ancient Egyptians became the Africans. They became modern Egyptians.
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Post by Graeme on Mar 16, 2004 9:13:05 GMT -5
The ancient Egyptians were not negrids. They had strict laws preventing negrids from entering Egypt. The negrids could only trade as far as the island of Meroe. The Egyptians were most likely Berbers influenced by the cultures of the Middle East and the Med islands not by anything from Africa.
I don't regard Berbers as Meds, who are European and do not extend beyond Europe. As for Ramses the original being redhaired, I find that hard to believe in that climate. Melanin in hair breaks down and is affected by the preservation process leaving only residual phaemelanin (red) which is more stable. I think all the "ists" are BS and Egypt's past is its own and purely Berber. Modern Egyptians are mixed, but still not negrid.
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 16, 2004 13:50:30 GMT -5
I don't regard Berbers as Meds, who are European and do not extend beyond Europe. Capsians colonised the Iberian peninsula, and Iberian and North African Meds are of the same racial type. The "true" Mediterranid.
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 16, 2004 14:14:50 GMT -5
Capsians colonised the Iberian peninsula, and Iberian and North African Meds are of the same racial type. The "true" Mediterranid. Hmmmm... "Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North Africa: hair color and nasal profile. In Spain, as a whole, some 29 per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent.113 In most of North Africa and Arabia, the black hair is commoner than the dark brown. The nasal profiles of some 120,000 Spaniards are convex in 15 per cent of cases, straight in 72 per cent, and concave in 13 per cent. In Arabia and North Africa east of Morocco, the commonest profile form is usually convex, and coneaves are very rare. The prevalence of these two features. dark brown hair and a straight nasal profile, indicates that the bulk of the Spanish population is derived from the earlier Mediterranean In-vasions of Mesolithic and Neolithic date. The Spaniards are more like the most marginal and fully sedentary of the brunet Berber groups in North Africa than like the more recently settled transhumant ones or the Arabs." www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-XI15.htmGenetics The most striking results are that contemporary NW African and Iberian populations were found to have originated from distinctly different patrilineages and that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow.... The Islamic rule of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. ...the origins of the Iberian Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 5% recent NW African, 78% Upper Paleolithic and later local derivatives (group IX), and 10% Neolithic (H58, H71). No haplotype assumed to have originated in sub-Saharan Africa was found in our Iberian sample. It should be noted that H58 and H71 are not the only haplotypes present in the Middle East and that the Neolithic wave of advance could have brought other lineages to Iberia and NW Africa. A small NW African genetic contribution in Iberia is also detected with mtDNA, the female counterpart of the Y chromosome. ... [North African] haplogroup U6 is found at very low frequencies: it has been found in 3 of 54 Portuguese and in 2 of 96 Galicians and is absent in Andalusians and in 162 other Iberians (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998). (Bosch et al., Am J Hum Genet, 2001)
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 16, 2004 18:41:58 GMT -5
I was referring to the U6 lineages, which are said to support an origin of the Iberians from the North African Capsians and Mechtoids.
What Coon said is only to be expected, that the Iberians are closest to Moroccans, because Capsians most likely arrived through Gibraltar. (Even earlier North Africans managed to cross over through Gibraltar into Europe.)
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Post by eufrenio on Mar 16, 2004 18:44:04 GMT -5
I wonder why Coon didn´t mention the striking diference in skin pigmentation between even the sunnier parts of Spain and the Arabian peninsula, or the prevalence of curly hair in the latter, while it is rare in Spain, where straight/wavy hair is the norm. Hmmmm... "Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North Africa: hair color and nasal profile. In Spain, as a whole, some 29 per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent.113 In most of North Africa and Arabia, the black hair is commoner than the dark brown. The nasal profiles of some 120,000 Spaniards are convex in 15 per cent of cases, straight in 72 per cent, and concave in 13 per cent. In Arabia and North Africa east of Morocco, the commonest profile form is usually convex, and coneaves are very rare. The prevalence of these two features. dark brown hair and a straight nasal profile, indicates that the bulk of the Spanish population is derived from the earlier Mediterranean In-vasions of Mesolithic and Neolithic date. The Spaniards are more like the most marginal and fully sedentary of the brunet Berber groups in North Africa than like the more recently settled transhumant ones or the Arabs." www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-XI15.htmGenetics The most striking results are that contemporary NW African and Iberian populations were found to have originated from distinctly different patrilineages and that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow.... The Islamic rule of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. ...the origins of the Iberian Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 5% recent NW African, 78% Upper Paleolithic and later local derivatives (group IX), and 10% Neolithic (H58, H71). No haplotype assumed to have originated in sub-Saharan Africa was found in our Iberian sample. It should be noted that H58 and H71 are not the only haplotypes present in the Middle East and that the Neolithic wave of advance could have brought other lineages to Iberia and NW Africa. A small NW African genetic contribution in Iberia is also detected with mtDNA, the female counterpart of the Y chromosome. ... [North African] haplogroup U6 is found at very low frequencies: it has been found in 3 of 54 Portuguese and in 2 of 96 Galicians and is absent in Andalusians and in 162 other Iberians (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998). (Bosch et al., Am J Hum Genet, 2001)
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 16, 2004 18:46:25 GMT -5
I was referring to the U6 lineages, which are said to support an origin of the Iberians from the North African Capsians and Mechtoids. What Coon said is only to be expected, that the Iberians are closest to Moroccans, because Capsians most likely arrived through Gibraltar. (Even earlier North Africans managed to cross over through Gibraltar into Europe.) I believe the large genetic distance between Europeans - ANY Europeans - and North Africans makes the North African origin of any European ethnic group unlikely. I believe that Europe and North Africa were populated by two distinct, separate 'colonization waves' from the Near East that had relatively little contact with each other.
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 16, 2004 19:00:15 GMT -5
I believe the large genetic distance between Europeans - ANY Europeans - and North Africans makes the North African origin of any European ethnic group unlikely. I believe that Europe and North Africa were populated by two distinct, separate 'colonization waves' from the Near East that had relatively little contact with each other. I don't think it's that simple. Wether there was hybridisation or not, there was already migrations across Gibraltar before moderns arrived. As early as the Upper Paleolithic gene flow must have been continuous, and had a great effect on the physical type.
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 16, 2004 19:03:58 GMT -5
I wonder why Coon didn´t mention the striking diference in skin pigmentation between even the sunnier parts of Spain and the Arabian peninsula, or the prevalence of curly hair in the latter, while it is rare in Spain, where straight/wavy hair is the norm. The Arabian Peninsula is Orientalid, while the Atlas Mountains are not.
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Post by eufrenio on Mar 17, 2004 16:04:31 GMT -5
Sorry I pressed the wrong key! I was saying that, regardless of the differences between Arabs (in the geographical sense of the term)and North-Africans, both groups are darker than Spaniards. I know there are lighter pigmented berber tribes in Morocco, but they are a minority. Pick 100 random people in Seville and 100 random people in Casablanca, and check their pigmentation on the Von Luschan scale.
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 18, 2004 7:24:13 GMT -5
Sorry I pressed the wrong key! I was saying that, regardless of the differences between Arabs (in the geographical sense of the term)and North-Africans, both groups are darker than Spaniards. I know there are lighter pigmented berber tribes in Morocco, but they are a minority. Pick 100 random people in Seville and 100 random people in Casablanca, and check their pigmentation on the Von Luschan scale. I know that there are differences (including craniometric differnces) but, I was talking the relationship of Iberians and North Africans. They are still (probably) closer to each other than to the other Mediterranids. And along the European coast, they did assimilate into other Europeans to produce (at least in part) the Littoral Western Europeans.
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Octavivs
Full Member
errare hvmanvm est, in errore perservare stvltvm
Posts: 100
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Post by Octavivs on Apr 3, 2004 15:50:40 GMT -5
According to Poe and his followers, they were Black! ;D This has the same credibility than say they were civilized by aliens! But probably there was some Blacks amog them...
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Post by TutanKa on Apr 7, 2004 11:50:41 GMT -5
We can all be rest assured aobut one thing. They weren't caucasion, no matter how many people wish it were so. And if they were Arab I would eat my shoes. Take a look at the culture, their religions, how they depicted themselves in art. There are people here who have convinced themselves mentally that the Ancient Egyptians could never have been African. The chances that they were a mix of African and Arab...or a race with brown skin that has long since been forgotten...or bred out...is quite possible. There are so many different races of African that indeed anything is possible. I won't accept that they were either caucasion or arab. The only people who would deny that they were anything else are either racist or ignorant. Sometimes both together. Take a pew at this article, and the ancient egyptian pictures also. Let the Ancient Egyptians themselves tell us who they were and who they were not. www.catchpenny.org/race.html
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Post by Melnorme on Apr 7, 2004 11:58:18 GMT -5
The only people who would deny that they were anything else are either racist or ignorant. No smearing, please. Afrocentrists are the ones who started making claims, not everybody else. Be prepared to defend those claims.
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 7, 2004 12:08:12 GMT -5
We can all be rest assured aobut one thing. They weren't caucasion, no matter how many people wish it were so. And if they were Arab I would eat my shoes. Take a look at the culture, their religions, how they depicted themselves in art. There are people here who have convinced themselves mentally that the Ancient Egyptians could never have been African. The chances that they were a mix of African and Arab...or a race with brown skin that has long since been forgotten...or bred out...is quite possible. There are so many different races of African that indeed anything is possible. I won't accept that they were either caucasion or arab. The only people who would deny that they were anything else are either racist or ignorant. Sometimes both together. Take a pew at this article, and the ancient egyptian pictures also. Let the Ancient Egyptians themselves tell us who they were and who they were not. www.catchpenny.org/race.html They were (for the most part) mixed race - just like modern Egyptians. One thing I can safely tell you is that they weren't Afro-Americans in denial. I pity you people... I really do. Life must be horrible when you have no heritage and you need to steal that which belongs solely to Egyptians. What drives you to become cultural criminals? Because cultural thieves is what you are - you are trying to steal what belongs SOLELY to MODERN EGYPTIANS. Honestly, this sort of thing makes me literally sick to the stomach. EDITED Incidentally, you said that anyone that disagreed with you was either racist or ignorant. That is one hell of an argument. Was that how you graduated in high school (assuming that you actually graduated)? When someone is more productive than you, you shout "racism!"? Let me tell you this: the biggest ignorant and the biggest racist in this message board is obviously YOU. It's people like you who give democracy a bad name.
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