Ayres
New Member
Arcturus Hispaniensis
Posts: 26
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Post by Ayres on Apr 4, 2004 11:55:22 GMT -5
I have no doubt that the the term "louro" in Portugal has a somewhat different criteria of application than the English term "blonde". This fact may lead to some confusion. Almost all of the women who I have encountered in Portugal who reffer to themselves as "louras" would be considered "brunettes" in Britain or other English-speaking nations. i must apologize, i didn't understand your point very well... in matter of fact the blondest woman that i know in Portugal is from Alentejo... but i think she has a very nordid mix... she is also my german teacher!
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Post by Silveira on Apr 4, 2004 12:06:45 GMT -5
I have no intention of being hostile to you and I am happy that we have another Portuguese poster here at Dodona. I hereby express my most sincere welcome.
As to my point, all I wish to say is that the Portuguese term "loura" is not completely equivalent to the English term "blonde" ("blond" in the US). The popular perception of what constitutes a "loura" in Portugal is different to what constitutes a "blonde" in England, etc.
I have observed the phenotypes of many Portuguese from all over Portugal and for some strange reason there are many pure nordic types in some parts of Baixo Alentejo, such as Aljustrel, Almodôvar, etc. This may be associated with groups of foreign people (Flemings, Danes, etc.) who settled these lands during the Reconquista. This being said, as a whole there is a greater proportion of Mediterranean people with minor Alpine and Nordic admixture in northern Portugal than in Southern Portugal, where a dark dolicocephalic Mediterranean "Berber" element is very strong. All my statements are based on empirical personal observations.
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Ayres
New Member
Arcturus Hispaniensis
Posts: 26
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Post by Ayres on Apr 4, 2004 13:51:16 GMT -5
ok the only thing i dont agree is the 3 to one 1 thing. lol, yeah, me neither... Silveira, well, thank you very much! ;D
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 4, 2004 20:58:35 GMT -5
this is what i can get so far (im just using this an example to the 3 to 1) southern portugal 1 link broken -dark brown/black 2 dark brown/black-light hair (not blonde 3dark brown/black-im guessing the same 3dark brown/black on both girls (black and white fotos so im guessing 4dark brown/black-link broken 5light brown/dirty blonde-light brown 6dark brown/black-dark brown/black 7dark brown/black-ligh brown 8light brown/darkish-dark brown/black-dark brown/black so over all blackish hair to one dirty blonde. i will post more but im having trouble accessing the pages... First of all, my site has pictures of MODELS who I considered representative of most types of phenotypes present in Portugal. They are not necessarily statistically accurate. Second of all - as Silveira already explained, and as I had already stated -, I wasn't talking about peroxidized-blondes, I was talking about girls like Madalena Brandão<br> Her hair is lighter than this (it is wet in that picture). She is not a Scandinavian blonde type, but over here she is undoubtedly considered blonde (and she has green eyes too). From my personal experience, I would say that some 7-10% of the Portuguese have traces of blondism. I would also say that some 2-3% of the Portuguese population has real jet-black hair. Dark-brown hair DOES NOT qualify is "BLACK". Black hair is an indicative of either Asian (or Amerindian) or North African ancestry. It is mroe common in the south of the country (particularly in the extreme south), but it is still a very small minority even there, nevermind in the rest of the country. Let me remind all of you that southern Portugal only has 8% of the total Portuguese population, and the Algarve maybe a quarter of those mentioned 8%. Furthermore: 2/3 of the students in my university are not from Lisbon. I can tell you that I could only remember ONE PERSON with jet-black hair. My present class has AT LEAST some 15 blonde girls out of ~120 students (and I am only counting the women). Let me repeat: most Portuguese have dark brown hair. There are probably more Portuguese with black hair than Portuguese with Scandinavian blonde type of hair, but the number of people with traces of blondism is much higher than the number of people with jet-black hair. A propósito, junto-me ao Silveira ao desejar as boas-vindas ao Ayres . Entre Espanhóis e Portugueses, já fazemos um número jeitoso.
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Post by buddyrydell on Apr 5, 2004 1:15:53 GMT -5
I have to say that as a whole, Iberians are more Mediterranean than Italians or Greeks. Most Portuguese I've seen have dark brown hair and eyes, whereas among Italians and Greeks (especially Italians from the north), light brown hair is very common, as is dirty blond hair. Basically, anyone of European origin who isn't pure Nordic in appearance won't stick out in Italy, especially in the north, but even in the south (including Sicily), or in Greece for that matter. But in Portugal, and also in some parts of Spain, the people are more uniformly brunet in pigmentation. All in all, Greeks and Italians have considerably more diversity in physical types than Iberians. But from I understand, Spain has a high number of light-eyed individuals, as does Italy and Greece. Is this true?
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Post by executiona9 on Apr 5, 2004 3:19:25 GMT -5
Thats the biggest nonsense I ever heard. Pure white people can have all haircolours, including black.
Here in the Netherlands about 15 % of the men have black hair and about 5 % of the women have black hair. So the average is about 10 %.
Given the fact that the Portuguese are much darker in haircolour/eyecolour than the dutch I would believe that at least 30-40 % of the Portuguese must have black hair.
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Post by executiona9 on Apr 5, 2004 3:21:24 GMT -5
You are wrong about Spain. Spaniards are lighter than Greeks. The darkest Europeans are the Portuguese and Greeks. Spaniards and Italians are both lighter than Portuguese/Greeks.
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Post by xxx on Apr 5, 2004 6:48:51 GMT -5
Thats the biggest nonsense I ever heard. Pure white people can have all haircolours, including black. Here in the Netherlands about 15 % of the men have black hair and about 5 % of the women have black hair. So the average is about 10 %. I wouldn't be surprised if that black hair in the Northern lands was a trace of ancient Mongoloid origins. Alex, for the sake of accuracy we should use 'Old Mediterranean' instead of 'North African'. While they are both correct, the second is deceitful as it seems to refer to modern Northern Africans, a mixture of Old Mediterranean, Semite and Negroid. Well, it's not as simple as it may look at first. Except for the case of Greece, which indeed has a high number of pitch black hair colour. In any of the Western Mediterranean nations you will find a variety of hair colour depending on the regions or territories. In general, the more South you go the darker it will be, but more of a very dark brown tone (dark chestnut) than real black. While the ethnical composition remains, to a smaller or larger extent, that of the Modern Mediterraneans all over, the Southern areas retain stronger traits of the Old Mediterranean people. And yet, you will find an extremely high percentage of real black hair among the population of the Basque Country in Northern Spain. Probably higher than in any other areas. To Silveira, Alex and Ayres (by the way Ayres, nice sarcasm that of your German teacher ). Much of what we call blonde is actually a light to medium hazelnut. I don't know if that constitutes a trace of blondism or simply a light depigmentation from brown. Oh... and I ignore if blondism is actually a depigmentation of brown.
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Post by executiona9 on Apr 5, 2004 8:08:10 GMT -5
There have never been mongoloids in Holland. The black hair of some dutch people probably comes from the fact that Holland was ruled 200 years by Spain in history. Or perhaps the Roman empire has something to do with it.
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Post by xxx on Apr 5, 2004 8:47:53 GMT -5
With an average of 10% black hair in The Netherlands it is highly unlikely that Spaniards had to do anything with it. The Spanish soldiers in the Lowlands (Tercios de Flandes) were not just composed by Spaniards, but Germans, Dutch, English, Scots, Irish, etc. And the period of time we are talking about was not one of generalised rapings after conquests (and there was no 'conquest' of the Netherlands by Spain).
A Mongoloid strain does not have to imply a Mongol invasion/migration in The Netherlands. This could perfectly be due to ancient admixture before the old inhabitants of the area arrived there.
But anyway, it was just a suposition.
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 5, 2004 9:09:34 GMT -5
Thats the biggest nonsense I ever heard. Pure white people can have all haircolours, including black. Here in the Netherlands about 15 % of the men have black hair and about 5 % of the women have black hair. So the average is about 10 %. Given the fact that the Portuguese are much darker in haircolour/eyecolour than the dutch I would believe that at least 30-40 % of the Portuguese must have black hair. Thank you for your charming complement, but I expressed myself poorly. What I meant to say was that Black hair is predominant in Amerindian, Asian and North African/Arabic populations. As to the Netherlands having 10% people with Black hair: I have been to the Netherlands, and the only reason why I believe your words is because it is almost easier to find a Turk, an Indonesian or a mulatto from Surinam in Amsterdam than a real Dutchman. As to the greatest nonsense that i've ever heard, your two posts about Portugal surely make it to the top 10. If you think that 40% of the Portuguese population has Black hair, I would advise you to buy an airplane ticket prior to speaking bullshit about countries you obviously know absolutely nothing about. In case you failed to notice, my first post to you was edited almost immediately afetr I posted it because I had been a lot harsher in my words than what I planned, but for some reason, I had a gut feelign that you deserved it. I really should trust my instinct more often.
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Post by Melnorme on Apr 5, 2004 9:17:26 GMT -5
Thank you for your charming complement, but I expressed myself poorly. What I meant to say was that Black hair is predominant in Amerindian, Asian and North African/Arabic populations. Almost all Asians and Amerindians have black hair, but at least among Middle Easterners, brown haired people are a very large minority. Take it easy, man. He's made lots of unqualified assertions, but I don't think hostility was intended.
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 5, 2004 9:32:44 GMT -5
Take it easy, dude. He's made lots of unqualified assertions, but I don't think hostility was intended. I took it easy the first time. Forgive me for my latin temper, but I am not a hypocrite and when someone says that something I have said is "the biggest nonsense he has ever heard" while that same someone has spent the last 2 days stating his "inventive" opinions (euphemism for "the biggest nonsense I have ever heard") about MY country, I am sorry if I don't take it with a smile. Incidentally, I agree that Portugal is overall the darkest country in Europe - for the simple reason that it is the country in southern Europe which has on average the lowest % of Nordic and Alpine admixture. I suspect that not even Morocco has 40% of the population with Black hair, DESPITE all the Arab and Negroid admixture, and as to the Algarve (in southern Portugal), I don't expect to find more than 10-15% of the locals with jet-black hair... But of course, as I have repeatedly said, the people from Algarve make around 2-3% of the Portuguese population.
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Post by Vimara on Apr 5, 2004 9:47:04 GMT -5
i would like to continue.but it's become worthless. alex i used your models pages just an exmaple. not the rule of thumb....
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Post by executiona9 on Apr 5, 2004 10:21:48 GMT -5
There was a conquest of Holland by Spain. The interbreeding between the Spanish oppressor and the dutch natives has been documented a lot. Modern day dutch people have some spanish blood mixed in.
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