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Post by executiona9 on Apr 3, 2004 10:01:02 GMT -5
According to Coon and other anthropologists :
Greece : Greeks are mostly alpines and mediterreneans
Northern Italy : mostly alpine Southern italy : mostly mediterrenean
Spain : spaniards are mostly alpines and mediterreneans
Portugal : the great majority of Portuguese are mediterrenean. The alpines are not so important in Portugal as in Greece, Spain and Italy
So that makes Portugal the only European country where the mediterrenean race predominates.
some people have the idea that Southern-Europe is predominately mediterrenean, which is untrue. They forget that alpines are just as important in Southern-Europe as meds. Thats why this thread
by the way : dinarics are also very important in portugal, spain, italy and greece
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Post by xxx on Apr 3, 2004 11:25:01 GMT -5
Oh, oh... that should make Tautalos very unhappy. ;D
Come on! The alpinid and even the nordid components in both Spain, Northern Italy, and also in Southern France is well assimilated into the old Mediterranean substratum. So I would say predominantly modern Mediterranean for all South Western Europe.
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Post by executiona9 on Apr 3, 2004 11:35:02 GMT -5
I disagree. I dont think that mediterrenean blood is more important than alpine blood in Spain and Italy. Both Spain and Italy are basically an alpine-mediterrenean mix.
Portuguese people on the other hand are darker than Spaniards and Italians. (most Portuguese people have black hair. Most italians and spaniards have brown hair) Portuguese people are mostly mediterrenean
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Post by Melnorme on Apr 3, 2004 11:48:33 GMT -5
(most Portuguese people have black hair. Most italians and spaniards have brown hair) Hmm, alex would disagree with you here. I think true black hair is, as a rule, in the minority amongst all Europeans.
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Post by xxx on Apr 3, 2004 12:24:07 GMT -5
But you are assuming that black hair is the only hair colour for Mediterraneans, and that is plain wrong. Chestnut colour is Med too.
Even some degree of depigmentation shows on the less mixed Mediterranean Berbers at early stages of their lifes.
Migratory movements assimilation into native populations is the rule rather than the exception. With this I mean that no matter how Alpinid one Spaniard, Italian or S. French may look like, it still a trait on top of his/her Mediterranean genetic pool.
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 3, 2004 15:07:26 GMT -5
Portuguese people on the other hand are darker than Spaniards and Italians. (most Portuguese people have black hair. Most italians and spaniards have brown hair) Portuguese people are mostly mediterrenean Most Portuguese obviously have dark brown hair, and you will find about 3 blondes for every person with black hair. I remember that when I was 13, we counted in school how many of us had black hair, and out of 30 there was only one person. As to Portugal being a Mediterranean country, that is not even true. Central Portugal has a predominately Mediterranean population with a strong Alpine admixture. In Northern Portugal, you will even find people with visible Nordic admixture. The only part of Portugal which is completely Mediterranean territory is the lower third of the country (in which dark brown hair is also the rule, and black hair is a ridiculously small minority). Incidentally, I wouldn't trust Coon when it comes to the Iberian Peninsula. I don't know where he got his statistics, but they are clearly not valid for the country I live in. He also screwed up when it comes to Spain (according to several Spaniards I have talked to about the subject).
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Post by executiona9 on Apr 3, 2004 19:30:27 GMT -5
point im making is that Portuguese people are darker on average than Spaniards and Italians. And with darker I dont mean skincolour, I mean haircolour.
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Post by Silveira on Apr 4, 2004 6:33:56 GMT -5
I can´t speak for Italy, although there are definite differences in phenotype between the far north and far south of that country.
Spain, a country which I have visited frequently, has a population which is mostly Mediterranean, with varying degrees of Alpine and in some cases Nordic admixture. There may be a few regions in eastern and north-eastern Spain where the Alpine type is more prevalent but Spain´s population as a whole is mostly Mediterranean. From my travels in Europe, I would say Spaniards and Portuguese are more similar to each other than to people from across the Pyrenees. Spain is a larger country and has a much more diverse native population than Portugal, both subracially as well as linguistically, culturally, etc.
Portugal is, of course, the most Mediterranean country in Europe. There is, however, an Alpine strain evident in the northerly provinces.
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 4, 2004 7:55:03 GMT -5
i disagree with alex about the blonde part. When I say blonde, I don't mean "Scandinavian blonde". Women with traces of blondism are considered "blondes" over here. Furthermore, that picture has a very bad lighting, which is why the hair of those people looks black when it isn't.
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Ayres
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Post by Ayres on Apr 4, 2004 9:43:47 GMT -5
well, for the black hair, i don't see too much in Portugal... dark brown to light brown is very very commun, here (in Valença) i don't see as many meds as when i went down there (central/southern portugal)... anyway, the med traits are very clear too, but with the admixture of celtiberians, so, there are blonds and lighter skin and hair colour... my hair is light (very light, but not dark blond) brown, and my eyes are light brown too... about the lighter skin, i have lighter because i don't go to beach very often... but the great majority here go, and then they get tanned and hard to define... i don't mean to say that in Portugal there aren't anyone with black hair... because there are, and much more than in other european countries... but some people here are just over-estimating that... i just want to add that i'm a Celtic Mediterranid and I'm very proud of it... more mediterranid, by the way...
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Post by Silveira on Apr 4, 2004 10:34:34 GMT -5
You are correct. Most Portuguese have dark brown hair and not black hair. Here are some photos of "minhotos" in North America. There are many people from the Alto Minho region in the US (especially in New Jersey) and Canada. United States: Canada: www.imageshack.us/img2/5051/pic53.jpg[/img] Note: The Canadian photos came from the following site: www.acminho.com
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Ayres
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Post by Ayres on Apr 4, 2004 10:51:45 GMT -5
well, where i live it doesn't seem a nonsense afirmation... but in a major way, and talking about the average in Portugal, i would say that that is rather nonsense...
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Post by Silveira on Apr 4, 2004 11:03:09 GMT -5
The definition of what constitutues a "louro" in Portugal is quite different to that which constitutes a "blonde" in Anglo-Saxon countries. Most people who call themselves "louros" in Portugal would be considered "brunettes" in English-speaking nations and not "blondes". There are a few true "blondes" amongst the native Portuguese population but this type of hair (in its natural and "unbottled" version) is quite rare in Portugal. I do not find bleached-haired women attractive at all, they are too artificial looking for my tastes.
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Ayres
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Post by Ayres on Apr 4, 2004 11:37:43 GMT -5
just a guess, i think your point is not referring to "louros" but to "russos" (not the ones from Russia, of course) all the people i know from other countries consider a blond just the same as i do... i'll search for some picures and then i'll post them here for you to see what i consider a blond... anyway... people with really black hair is quite uncommun here in the north!
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Post by Silveira on Apr 4, 2004 11:50:08 GMT -5
I am quite familiar with the manner in which the term "louro" (or "loiro" in the old-fashioned pronunciation) is employed in Portugal and with the term "blonde" as used in English-speaking nations. I have no doubt that the the term "louro" in Portugal has a somewhat different criteria of application than the English term "blonde". This fact may lead to some confusion. Almost all of the women who I have encountered in Portugal who reffer to themselves as "louras" would be considered "brunettes" in Britain or other English-speaking nations. In these countries, "blonde" is associated with a particularly nordic phenotype which is quite rare in Portugal.
Interestingly, of the few truely phenotypically nordic Portuguese women which I am personally friends with three are "Alentejanas" from Aljustrel and Beja, one was born in Angola, and only two are from northern Portugal. I know many other Portuguese women who have some nordic traits but who are nonetheless mostly med or med/alpine.
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