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Post by Caipira on Dec 6, 2003 23:23:19 GMT -5
"I would never, ever, ever mistake the people in these pictures for Europeans. They look exactly like what they are: mixed South American types. Amerindian, and to a less extent Negroid, influence is obvious. I hope this doesn't offend you, but you're not white by and European or North American definition. « Last Edit: Today at 9:27pm by ProdigalSon »"<br> Just one more thing, ProdigalSon...
Some people in these pics that you have seen are in fact, full European. It´s strange how you would "never, ever, ever mistake the people in these pictures for Europeans."...
In the pic with 5 guys playing in a game room, just me, in the left, have some non-Caucasoid admixture (I have an African great great great grandmother). The other ones are 100% Iberian/Italian... So, or my pics are really bad (specially because they were taken by web cams) or your racial classifications are not the accurate ones. Anyway, if they are not white (I´m not talking about me, but about my other relatieves), Tom Jones and Xavier Bardez can´t be white either...
Caipira !!
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Post by Necronomicom on Dec 7, 2003 0:46:56 GMT -5
Visible Negroid admixture in my dead ? Again, you´re wrong... But probably you´re saying this because my father has a large nose, isn´t it ?? Well, I agree with you that´s quite unusual between Europeans. My father´s brother is a little dark too, in Uruguay, where they were born, they used to call him "Moro"... Your father's nose isn't a very typical European nose, but anyway sometimes its hard to classify people based in some pictures, besides his nose he doesn't look like a negroid, IMO he could pass as Portuguese But you really do look like a person with some amerindian mixture. Turks ans Portugueses can look quite the same... Typical Turks are Mediloids (i just made this term up) Typical Portuguese are Mediterreans Anyway, unfortunally there are some White supremacists groups in Brazil. The southern ones just don´t accept Portuguese descents, just northern European descents. Portuguese people are called by some agressive names by some Germans... Stop lying there is no nordicism in Brazil and most people in South Brazil are mediterreans, you are probably just upset because you didn't get accepted in any racialist Brazilian group. in a previous post you said the Brazilian government was nordicist, lol you have no idea of what you are talking about.
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Post by Silveira on Dec 7, 2003 14:23:01 GMT -5
This is very true. There is a heavy German component and a smaller component of Eastern Europeans but the vast majority of Southern Brazilians are of Southern European ancestry. Except in some of the more isolated areas, most descendants of immigrants are culturally Brazilian, and have been so for at least 2 or 3 generations. For a time, during the Vargas regime, non-Portuguese language ethnic newspapers were prohibited and schools financed by foreign governments were closed down. This forced many foreign immigrant colonies to integrate into Brazilian society.
I think he was reffering to the allocation of free land at the disposal of German and other immigrants in southern Brazil. This had nothing to do with nordicism, this was done because the German immigrants, unlike southern Europeans, were familiar with industrialized agriculture and machinized agricultural techniques. They were more suited for applying this experience and increase the productivity of foodstuffs for Brazil´s internal market. Most of southeastern and northern Brazil was based on cash-crops (sugarcane, coffee, cacau, etc.) for export and the Brazilian authorities wanted to increase the production of food products (wheat, vegetables, dairy products, etc.) for the internal Brazilian market. The people who promoted this immigration policy were not Nordic agents but the mostly Portuguese-descended Brazilian ruling class.
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Post by Silveira on Dec 7, 2003 14:28:10 GMT -5
Your relatives in those photos you posted look European and most people of the world, who are not influenced but rather repulsed by nazi-derived race ideologies would agree with me. Not nordic, but European, native southern European, who by geographical definition cannot be anything other than European. Don´t confuse what you read on these "racial-myths" forums with the real world.
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Post by alex221166 on Dec 7, 2003 14:29:46 GMT -5
To Caipira "Yes, I found one... But it´s not a grand-parent or a great-grandparant... Is a great great-grandparent. Well, he has Caucasoid features but he´s dark woth curly hair..." That is not enough to show. However, if your ancestry is mostly southern European, then you are likely to have to add a limited (but still present) amount of Negroid DNA from that side. "Yes, my other ancestors are recent imigrants. My father is Uruguayian. His grandparents were all Spaniards and Italians." Uruguay was a Portuguese colony known to have had a large proportion of Africans. The early Uruguayan settlers were Portuguese (see the colony of Sacramento) "My mothe´s mother has 2 Spaniards granparents, an Italian grandfather and a German grandmother. My mother´s father has 2 Italian grandmothers, a Portuguese grandfather and a Brazilian grandfather. My non-Caucasoid ancestry came threw him... He was my great great grandfather. His father was Portuguese, but his mother was half Portuguese and half African... So, there is an African woman 6 generations ago in my family, and the rest part are recent European imigrants..." Yes, then this makes it impossible for you to show anything. Even if you had twice as much Negroid as what you claim to have, that still wouldn't be enough to show. "Hmmm... Like an American Creole... Do you know if Creoles and Cajuns are the same thing " No, Cajuns are the descendants of the French refugees from Acadia. They eventually settled in the Louisianna swamps where they mixed with the Black slaves and with the Indians. They look overwhelmingly European. Creole was the name initially given to the Europeans born in the New World. They were initially whit, but they started to mix with their slaves and with time many Creole families became quite rich. Those that had visible mixed ancestry started to "whiten" their blood by marrying their daughters and sons with white settlers. Creoles were often educated as Europeans in France or in Spain and the creole women were reputed to be quite beautiful. Josephine (Napoleon's mistress) was a French Creole. "And are there now a days some cabritos in Portugal ?? Well, here we have the world "cabra", but it´s not the same as "cabrito". Cabra, over here, means a mulato or a mameluco or a person that it´s obviusly European/Amerindian/African. There are other Brazilian racial terms like "terceirão" (White/Mulato), "cabrocha" (a beautiful mulata) and others..." Only those that are the sons of the Portuguese refugees from the colonies. Some of the Portuguese settlers took Black or mixed-race wives. I wold say that there must be something like 10.000 or so "cabritos". Most Portuguese (particularly the women) want nothing to do with Blacks, partly because most Africans in Portugal are quite poor and uneducated. This whole issue of the Portuguese being racially mixed was used as propaganda to label us as unworthy to own any colonies. It doesn't have any historical or genetical backing, and it is nowadays supported only by people that don't know anything about both Portugal or the Portuguese.
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Post by great99 on Dec 7, 2003 16:57:30 GMT -5
And I start to understand you is a liar.
It's a common wrong interpretation that a lot of person give to these tests and you is another. I will show you are wrong showing a Cavalli Szorfa test about Portugueses' Y-cromossome.
Szorfa did DNA tests in 385 portugueses (328 from North and 57 from south). The results were:
235 belong to haplogroup Hg1 (Total = 61%; North Portugueses = 62%; South Portugueses = 56%)
62 belong to Haplogroup Hg2 (T = 16%; NP = 16%; SP = 14%)
1 belong to haplogroup Hg3 (T = 0,2%; NP = 0; SP = 2%)
26 belong to haplogroup Hg9 (T = 7%; NP = 6%; SP = 9%)
45 belong to haplogroup H21 (T = 12%; NP = 11%; SP = 17%)
6 belong to haplogroup Hg22 (T = 1%; NP = 2%; SP = 0)
10 belong to haplogroup Hg26 (T = 2%; NP = 3%; SP = 1%)
All this is to show you that When Cavalli Szorfa say portugueses are 12% Hg21 this don't mean portuguese have in average 12% of Hg21, but 12% of total population belong to haplogroup Hg21 (men).
In the same way, you will give the same interpretation to Negroid mark. In other words: 1-2% of total population belong to haplogroup negroid (mtDNA).
Let's supose there are just 10% persons in Portugal and these ones did a DNA exam. The final result was: 2% of negroid admixture.
Correct iterpretation: 2 portuguese are hybrid (2/10 = 0,2 x 100 = 2%)
Your incorrect interpretation: 6 portugueses between 10 are hybrid (60% have negroid admixture):
The first portuguese = 1% of negroid admixture The second one = 5% The third one = 0 4 = 0 5 = 3% 6 = 2% 7 = 3% 8 = 1% 9 = 0 10 = 5%
2(1%) + 2(3%) + 2(5%) + 1(1%) + 3(0)/100% = 2%
Let's see. You have 2 relatives, you had 4 great grandparents, 8 great great, 16 great great great, 32 great great great great, 64 great great great great great grandparents, 128......, 256......, 512....., 1024......, 2048........, 4096........, 8192.......
If I stop now, so you had about 328 negroid acestry in your genealogical tree. You have "2%" of negroid contribution in your genome, not 2% of negroid ancestry (what is totally different). The theory of: negroid father + european mother = children 50% european and 50% african is totally wrong. The children can be 99% negroid and 1% european genetically or the contrary.
It's something like this (in a super inaccurate example, just to you understand the logic):
By a scientific sense you can be 98% negroid, don't care how distant is your negroid ancestral. You just have one Y-chromosome (probably european) and one mtDNA (probably negroid or amerindian). 0,1% (300 genes types) of "Y + mtDNA" (30.000 genes) separate the humans by type (same race, but differents types), the 99% remainder genes (29.700) are the same to all human.
*women don't have Y-chromosome
*those number are just suppositions
By this example If you is 2% negroid, so you have 6 negroids genes from one haplogroup and 294 europeans genes from one haplogroup.
It's relative. The frequence of negroid admixture in europe is so low that your aspect is probably the result of the genes brought by neolithc farmer. He is a typical hybrid type (a minority) in Europe, generate by intermix between european caucasians and north african caucasian. And he is by far more european than you.
You are
He isn't
I'm good to identify liars
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Post by great99 on Dec 7, 2003 17:47:26 GMT -5
just a observation. This is totally wrong:
2(1%) + 2(3%) + 2(5%) + 1(1%) + 3(0)/100% = 2%
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Post by great99 on Dec 7, 2003 21:47:18 GMT -5
The european heritage in Brazil is IMO:
Northeast:
1 - Portugueses 2 - Dutch or spaniards
Southeast:
1 - Portugueses 2 - Italians 3 - Spaniards
South:
1 - Portugueses 2 - Italians 3 - Germans
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Post by herrx on Dec 7, 2003 22:24:41 GMT -5
Your mother doesen't looks like a dutch... noway... She looks like a souther european. You father can pass by a pure european, too... I don't think his nose is a evidence of negroid admixture. But you don't look like a pure european, man... Sorry... i'm not saying this for any racist cause... i'm not racist... I would say you have a little amerindian admixture even without knowing your origins as you told...
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Post by galvez on Dec 7, 2003 22:45:58 GMT -5
I for one tend to be skeptical of photos. That said, I looked at the pics and the posts and I see that things have gotten heated. Some say that Caipira looks Amerindian, and Caipira has taken offense at that. He has mentioned having a bit of Negroid ancestry. Judging from the photos, I would agree that Caipira has some European family members and a substantial European heritage. Southern Europeans can vary in appearance and in Europe "pseudo-foreign" appearances (for lack of a better term) are visible. That said, I don't think a person is far off by stating that Caipira looks like he may have Amerindian admixture. And I do not see why he should take offense at that.
Now, it could be that the majority of people here are wrong, for a majority position is not necessarily right. What I suggest to Caipira if he is so concerned about his racial makeup is to invest a bit of money on an autosomal DNA test that will sort out his ancestry into racial groups. Everything else is just conjecture.
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Post by herrx on Dec 7, 2003 23:21:14 GMT -5
I for one tend to be skeptical of photos. That said, I looked at the pics and the posts and I see that things have gotten heated. Some say that Caipira looks Amerindian, and Caipira has taken offense at that. He has mentioned having a bit of Negroid ancestry. Judging from the photos, I would agree that Caipira has some European family members and a substantial European heritage. Southern Europeans can vary in appearance and in Europe "pseudo-foreign" appearances (for lack of a better term) are visible. That said, I don't think a person is far off by stating that Caipira looks like he may have Amerindian admixture. And I do not see why he should take offense at that. Now, it could be that the majority of people here are wrong, for a majority position is not necessarily right. What I suggest to Caipira if he is so concerned about his racial makeup is to invest a bit of money on an autosomal DNA test that will sort out his ancestry into racial groups. Everything else is just conjecture. I agree with you, galvez... And, Caipira, don't get as a offense if someone tell you you look like amerindian. In my case, is just my opinion. It doesen't means the truth... Your skin can be darker because of the sun, for example...
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Post by Caipira on Dec 7, 2003 23:32:39 GMT -5
NECROMICOM:
"Your father's nose isn't a very typical European nose, but anyway sometimes its hard to classify people based in some pictures, besides his nose he doesn't look like a negroid, IMO he could pass as Portuguese But you really do look like a person with some amerindian mixture."
I got it. But you can be sure that I haven't any Amerindian bloond in me... Maybe can be just a coincidence...
"Typical Turks are Mediloids (i just made this term up) Typical Portuguese are Mediterreans"
I'm not saying that they look like the same. I'm saying that, in certain cases, they CAN look like the same.
"Stop lying there is no nordicism in Brazil and most people in South Brazil are mediterreans, you are probably just upset because you didn't get accepted in any racialist Brazilian group.
in a previous post you said the Brazilian government was nordicist, lol you have no idea of what you are talking about."
Yes, mostly southern Brazilians are Mediterranean, but there are A LOT of cities with Germanic/East European majority. In some of them, they speak German, for instance. White supremacists movements from there have their prejudices against Portuguese people. Once, I was checking the guestbook from a big Brazilian nazi group and there was a discuss, if Portuguese descents could participate from their movement...
But no, I'm not sad because I wouldn't be accepted in white supremacists movements (But I need to say that a member from the group "Orgulho Paulista" envited me to join in... Unlike you guys, he couldn't see any non-Caucasoid features on me... Anyway, why do you think that it would be such an honour been accepted by those people ? They are a buch of crazy supremacists... I'm normal guy and I don't want contact with them.
SILVEIRA
"Your relatives in those photos you posted look European and most people of the world, who are not influenced but rather repulsed by nazi-derived race ideologies would agree with me. Not nordic, but European, native southern European, who by geographical definition cannot be anything other than European. Don´t confuse what you read on these "racial-myths" forums with the real world."
I agree with you. Maybe it wasn't a good idea posting pics taken by web cams, they can look very strange... But i the end, I put some nice pics... No one who looked at my family have seen non-Caucasoid features still now... With me, it happened once: A japanese-Brazilian girl asked me if I had a sligh Asian admixture. She tought that I had some Asian on me because of my eyes....
Anyway, neo-nazi ideas are quite repulsive to me. They're simply a bunch of liers...
ALEX
"That is not enough to show. However, if your ancestry is mostly southern European, then you are likely to have to add a limited (but still present) amount of Negroid DNA from that side."
Yes, it's true.
"Uruguay was a Portuguese colony known to have had a large proportion of Africans. The early Uruguayan settlers were Portuguese (see the colony of Sacramento)"
You're right, but my father ancestry came by recent European imigrants...
"Yes, then this makes it impossible for you to show anything. Even if you had twice as much Negroid as what you claim to have, that still wouldn't be enough to show."
Just if I have some Negroid admixture by my Southern European heritage, don't you think ?? Anyway, when people see me personally, it's very, very rare seeing non-Caucasoid admixture in me... Once a Japanese-Brazilian girl looked at my eyes and asked me if I have a sligh Asian admixture. But no, I haven't. I haven't Amerindian admixture either... I'm sure about it.
"No, Cajuns are the descendants of the French refugees from Acadia. They eventually settled in the Louisianna swamps where they mixed with the Black slaves and with the Indians. They look overwhelmingly European.
Creole was the name initially given to the Europeans born in the New World. They were initially whit, but they started to mix with their slaves and with time many Creole families became quite rich. Those that had visible mixed ancestry started to "whiten" their blood by marrying their daughters and sons with white settlers. Creoles were often educated as Europeans in France or in Spain and the creole women were reputed to be quite beautiful. Josephine (Napoleon's mistress) was a French Creole."
Thank you for your explanations, Silveira... They were extremily interesting in my viewpoint... I always wanted to know what were Cajuns and Creoles...
"Only those that are the sons of the Portuguese refugees from the colonies. Some of the Portuguese settlers took Black or mixed-race wives. I wold say that there must be something like 10.000 or so "cabritos". Most Portuguese (particularly the women) want nothing to do with Blacks, partly because most Africans in Portugal are quite poor and uneducated.
This whole issue of the Portuguese being racially mixed was used as propaganda to label us as unworthy to own any colonies. It doesn't have any historical or genetical backing, and it is nowadays supported only by people that don't know anything about both Portugal or the Portuguese. "
Thank you for the explanations... I know that Portugal use to be a common target of Nordic supremacist groups...
Caipira !!
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Post by Necronomicom on Dec 8, 2003 0:17:10 GMT -5
NECROMICOM: Yes, mostly southern Brazilians are Mediterranean, but there are A LOT of cities with Germanic/East European majority. In some of them, they speak German, for instance. White supremacists movements from there have their prejudices against Portuguese people. Once, I was checking the guestbook from a big Brazilian nazi group and there was a discuss, if Portuguese descents could participate from their movement... there are not that many White Supremacist groups in Brazil and all types of idiots can post in the internet, it would be very hypocrital to accept Italians and to reject Portugueses. But no, I'm not sad because I wouldn't be accepted in white supremacists movements (But I need to say that a member from the group "Orgulho Paulista" envited me to join in... Unlike you guys, he couldn't see any non-Caucasoid features on me... Anyway, why do you think that it would be such an honour been accepted by those people ? They are a buch of crazy supremacists... I'm normal guy and I don't want contact with them. Orgulho Paulista is a terrible group, i been in their forum and they are all a bunch of immature idiots, and they are not White Nationalists, they are Stupid Separatists from São Paulo, many of them are not racist/racialist.
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Post by Caipira on Dec 8, 2003 1:04:18 GMT -5
"And I start to understand you is a liar."
No, I'm not... If you think I am, it's your problem. I don't need to prove anything to you...
"Since when germans are the base of classification to say who is european and who isn't? Futhermore, portugueses and turks don't look noway the same. You can't judge the whole by few examples "
Yes, Portugueses and Turks are not the same thing... But they CAN look like the very similar...
"You can't judge the whole by few examples "
You're doing this right now... ;D
"Another of your liars."
No. There are Germanic/Eastern European majority cities in souther states from Brazil, like Blumenau or Joinville. In some of them, they even don't speak Portuguese. Do you think that you would be the same thing there as Bruno Von Otto Blumenau's descents ? Sure you wouldn't. Some racialists groups are just German. Face it. They're nordicists and they follow guys like Arthur Kemp or Anon. Andrew MacDonald, one of the biggest Brazilian nazi groups sayd once in an old forum about how Portuguese people are mixed. I don't agree with him, but the fact is that they use Portugal to represent "the end of a civilization caused by racial admixture"
"If not, so She is wearing a peruke I suppose."
No, pics taken by web cams can be like this... Colors can became a mass...
"Those new pics don't help you in nothing."
No ? I showed you my Catalunyan and Italian great grandparents and you simple think that they are a bunch of Indians ??
"It's not about the largue nose, because some europeans totally europeans show largue nose. Even so a european with wide nose never will look like your father."
You're proving my point: Races are politically and socially defined. NOTE: I'M NOT DENYING HUMAN'S RACES EXISTENCE. I'm just saying that they're not a strict biological statement, because we CHOOSE what phisical characteristcs would "make" a race... Why skin colour and not wight ?? I don't know... The tem "White" or "Caucasoid" had lots of meanings during race's history. Different anthros had different racial classifications. 3, 5, 7, 9... 100 !!! Boas talked about just two, for instance... Each claffication is so arbitrary than others...
The point is that human bones (and phenotipes in general) can be quite plastic. According the grat Brazilian biologist, Walter Neves (I know him from USP), who worked with Cavalli-Sforza, just in 60% of his skull's analysis it was possible a fina biogeographical classification. In the other 40%, just guessing games: "Hmmm... This man looks like an Europoid". It happens because for mostly characteristics, individual variations are much bigger than racial variations.
You looked to my dad and tought: "Hmmm... This man has a large nose ans a curly hair. Of course! African ancestry! It's quite obvius!" The problem is that European genes CAN produce people like my father. I'm sure about that, because my father is full European and looks like you've seen... Have you watched "The Godfather"? Well, there's a sicilian guy, "Clemenza"... He's 100% Italian, but he could pass by a Brazilian mulato. How? That "Soprano" serie showed at least 2 very different Italian types... No seriuous scientists would be sure about someone ancesty just looking at him... Specially with just a few pics, Lololol...
Face it, son... Cavalli-Sforza agrees with me... Walter Neves and 90% of my professors at USP agree with me too...
"You just have one Y-chromosome (probably european) and one mtDNA (probably negroid or amerindian)."
No... My mother's mother's mother was Catalunyan, so, my mtDNA isn't Negroid or Amerindian (there aren't "Negroid" mtDNAs, there is no "Negroid" classifications in the genetic area)
"By a scientific sense you can be 98% negroid, don't care how distant is your negroid ancestral."
Please, don't waste your precious time teaching genetics to me... I work with this... Not with human genetics, I workl with vegetals, but I know a bit about human genetics... I looked a little about your statments, and I saw a lot of things about mtDNA and Y chromossomes. These are just two genetic lines. THEY CAN'T REPRESENT THE GENOME. Polymorphisms are much better (blood genes, for instance, like ABO, Rh-, Duffy, Philadelfia...)
But a person like me, just with an African great great great great grandmother and the rest of my genealogical tree caming from Europe hardly would be 98% Negroid. Yes, it can happens, but it's very unusual. About 99% of cases it doesn't happens... I can see at at USP labs... Generally, when a person being European, or mostly European, he's DNA will be like that. Take a look:
Genetic Structure of Human Populations Noah A. Rosenberg,1* Jonathan K. Pritchard,2 James L. Weber,3 Howard M. Cann,4 Kenneth K. Kidd,5 Lev A. Zhivotovsky,6 Marcus W. Feldman7
...Thus, for many applications in epidemiology, as well as for assessing individual disease risks, self-reported population ancestry likely provides a suitable proxy for genetic ancestry. Self-reported ancestry can be obtained less intrusively than genetic ancestry, and if self-reported ancestry subdivides a genetic cluster into multiple groups, it may provide useful information about unknown environmental risk factors (23, 25).
Yes, I need to read real science and not just about divulgation magazines...
I could see that Dr. Rich would never give a profilatic statement based in someones appearence. He knows that even Europeans can look in different ways. So, he never goes by someones phenotipes, he uses the term "population structures" or "self reported descent". It's pretty obvius that you don't understand very much about this... But I need to work all days with genetics...
Caipira !!
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Post by herrx on Dec 8, 2003 1:13:53 GMT -5
No. There are Germanic/Eastern European majority cities in souther states from Brazil, like Blumenau or Joinville. In some of them, they even don't speak Portuguese. Do you think that you would be the same thing there as Bruno Von Otto Blumenau's descents ? Sure you wouldn't. Some racialists groups are just German. Face it. They're nordicists and they follow guys like Arthur Kemp or Anon. German and Nordic are different things, man!!!
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