PAGAN POWER IN MODERN EUROPE - AND AN HINDU'S VIEW

[RUDRA]

tautalos said:

Thank you, but it does not look much more accurate.

It is not perfect either, just a-little bit more accurate that's all

There is no reference to India and the near east, nor to Iran, etc..

Because it would very hard putting all those many different haplotypes in one big map(and nobody have put together a map like that yet).

Here is another map, with reference to India and the near east. IN the future hopefully, we will get better information, than the time being.
www.ethnoancestry.com/images/haplo1.jpg

And there is no reference to R1A1 in Portugal, that there was in the other map.

The map is not perfect, but it is still better for understanding whats really going on. The other map divided Portugal into south & north, while this map puts them both into one (in the process throwing out R1a1).

Check them both out:
www.ethnoancestry.com/images/haplo2.jpg
i.1asphost.com/berschneider/Haplogroups.jpg

One way or another, R1b is probably a variant of the R1A1, which still shows a connection.

A better way of seeing it, is this: R1a(Hg3) & R1b(Hg1 & Hg22) are brothers, both sons have one same father. Both of them started out in Central Asia. But R1b, left home(moved out of the house ;D) to get to europe, while R1a stayed behind closer to home(Central Asia). And only later did R1a started move out on his own. ;D

Some People with the highest R1b:(Basque)

Some People with the highest R1a: (kashmiri)

[RUDRA]

tautalos said:

Also, there is no difference between the Basks and the Cornish, i.e., the specific Bask element is not observed (did it vanish between the two researches?).

That specific Basque element, Haplogroup 22, is also R1b. Hg22 is just one type of R1b, and for some reason it was grouped on it's own. I know its confusing

I hope this Y-tree genealogy can explain, just chick on it, and then enlarge it. Go scroll to the bottom of the page(this is where you find information on R-halpotypes ).
www.humphreygenealogy.com/YTREE.JPG

ONe more thing, The yellow line or strip(on the right-side) will tells you what haplogroups all the alphabets were assigned under. You can even play around to see, which Halpotypes(Alphabets) goes into which Haplogroup. ;D
i.1asphost.com/berschneider/Haplogroups.jpg

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

tautalos said:

Perhaps as a minor Deity. As much as I know, Turisas was never too important amongst the Slavs.

Perhaps, but we can't never be for sure, because alot things in ancient northern European history isn’t best preserved. Still he was known in Poland and Slavs living near Germany.

Perhaps. But you probably wont find any reference of Him in any Slavic page about their national religion.

Perkele would very much be indo-European god, so you win. ;D

But there could still be non-indo-European influence in even him,

Possibly. That does not changes His Indo-European nature.

because there is chance that Neolithic axes and flints are older religious symbols in europe.

Yes, like the Hammer of Thor. But can't that be a regional development of an Indo-European culture? I believe it is. The Stretaxvolk (The Folk of the Battle Hammer) is unanimously considered as an Indo-European culture.

No, they always spoke a non Indo-European language until the Romans arrive. Before that, Iberia was divided between two major areas, generally speaking: center, north and west were Indo-European, while south and east was non Indo-European. And the first Indo-Europeans who arrived to Iberia (maybe before 1000 a.c.) were probably not Celts.

Yes, still parts of north-west spain (modern basque country) even then could have been non-Indo-European Territory.[/quote]

Yes, but only the north-east. Not the north center nor the north-west.

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

tautalos said:

Some Jews deeply hated the non Jews, as is written in Talmude and as both Tacitus and Celsus testified.

Some did hate pagans, but their hate of Romans (Tacitus and Celsus) would be political and not just cultural.

Yes, but they «transformed» foreign Deities in evil demons - the demon Belzebuth, for instances, is a diabolization of the Phoenician God Baal, to Whom the Jews added the word «zebub», i.e., «flies», and so, Belzebuth is «The Lord of the Flies».
As much as I know, no Pagan folk ever did such a thing.

In those times, there was no powerful technology that could allow such an imposition on the part of a small rulling aristocracy. Also, a language, a pantheon, and several traditions, are not what can be considered as minor or superficial influences.

A language, some pantheons, and few traditions can be pushed by a small ruling aristocracy,[/quote]

No, it cannot. Not when the difference of technology is not as big as were the difference between modern Europe (XV century) and the African tribes, for instances.

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

tautalos said:

You can read more about the Indo-European pantheons here:
ceisiwrserith.com/pier/deities.htm

See for instances the connection between the Aryan Aryaman and the Irish Eremon...

Search for yourself about this and much more in
ceisiwrserith.com/pier/index.htm

I have to say this is really good stuff. But don't think you have won me over completely, because of it

Its interresting that the solar-god Aryaman, could have some connection to the Irish Eremon

Another great link, this time about Druidism and Brahamanism (again ;D):
www.angelfire.com/folk/boutios/Dhruveda.html

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

tautalos said:

there are forbiden issues for both of them, such as dogs, horses and olive oil

Are you saying that it’s forbidden to own these items, or it’s forbidden to come near them?

Actually, I don't really know... I just took this from a book ;D of an historian, and so, I am not sure if these data refer to a given region of India or to any specific period of Hinduism.

Dogs were seen as dirty in Indian culture,

Really? Isn't that right that one of the heroes of Mahabarata was so loyal to his own dog that he preferred to go to an inferior level of post-mortem existence rather than to a superior «heaven»?

Is that taboo of Indian culture a Vedic thing or the result of a Muslim influence? I find it odd that the dog is considered dirty in India and holy in Iran, and respected in ancient Greece.





Both (Druids and Brahamanes) dress in white, like the druids and the Persian mages.

This could be some-kind indo-Europeans connection, but its important to remember that the colors white is important many different cultures in world. Not just in india & europe, so it could still have come about independently, maybe.

Which other cultures have priests dressed in white?

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

tautalos said:

Also, the importance of sacred groves in both India and Celtic lands seems to be more than a coincidence...

sacred groves in India???

Wasn't the sanctuary of Ram at Ayodhya a sacred forest?

Ancient Britains seem to have abandoned Stonehenge, even before the coming of the Celts. Its seems there was a cultural decline in Britain, And many sites were abandoned, long before the Celts.

Precisely. That's why the Celtic traditions are basically Indo-European and not inherited from pre-Indo-European cultures .

We also don't know if the people who build the megalithic, didn't also worship amidst the woods.

We certainly can't say that they did. All that we know is that Indo-European folks did. ;D8-)

The military imposition in Turkey worked well, because they don't speak their older indo-european languages anymore

It was perhaps more than just a military imposition.

Arab didn't imposed by force, at least they didn't have to push themselves too much. Many north-Africans were easily arabized, they toke in the arab culture happily, and the main push was because of islam.

But Islam was imposed by force.

The north-african who still speak
their native languages do so, because they tried hard to keep their traditions alive (even if many converted to islam).

And they are still being persecuted today by the Arab-speakers.

Things like that don't happen. It's not real. It's like saying that if people decided to fly, they would be considered as half birds.

But things like this can happen, and it did happen. A good example is the egyptian coptics. When the muslim arabs came into egypt, they converted many to islam.

And that islamization was made by force.

Many egyptians started seeing themselves as arabs, and started speaking arabic.

And they have a lot of Arab blood as well. So, it's not a good example.

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

I only hope European peoples can heal their old wounds, and start re-building from what-ever which still remains . Ancient europeans pagans (both indo-european and non-indo-europeans) had some of most beautiful poetic religions traditions, and it sad(a shame really) that most of it got lost in the Christian period.

As a Hindu, you pagan europeans have my respect . Because even after all this time, many of you are still passionate about preserving your ancient faiths. I only pray, that greater things will follow you guys

Speaking for myself, we hope (I hope...) that we can count on an aliance between Indo-European gentiles of Europe and India.

[Tautalos]

One way or another, R1b is probably a variant of the R1A1, which still shows a connection.

[/quote] A better way of seeing it, is this: R1a(Hg3) & R1b(Hg1 & Hg22) are brothers, both sons have one same father. Both of them started out in Central Asia. But R1b, left home(moved out of the house ;D) to get to europe, while R1a stayed behind closer to home(Central Asia). And only later did R1a started move out on his own. ;D[/quote]

Therefore, the wave that carried the R1b was probably the first wave that carried an Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European culture.



Some People with the highest R1b:(Basque)

Some People with the highest R1a: (kashmiri)
[/quote]

Quite similar, I say...

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

ONe more thing, The yellow line or strip(on the right-side) will tells you what haplogroups all the alphabets were assigned under. You can even play around to see, which Halpotypes(Alphabets) goes into which Haplogroup. ;D
i.1asphost.com/berschneider/Haplogroups.jpg

Which yellow line?...

[arun]

I guess Rudra is not a hindu . He is actually someone
of Christian church . Why is he putting the same picture
again and again in this site ? The reason is clear . Most of the viewers will get a false impression of Hinduism as they know very little about it and already are pre occupied by the ideas propagated by church .

[arun]

Rudra wrote:"Monotheism is a very holy religious concept."

My questions are that,
1. Is that enough reason to slaughter so many peoples of India and Europe ?
2. What could be the problem of anyone if somebody worships ancient gods ?
3. Is not such mass killing and hatred against ancient civilizations a crime against humanity and mutual white
lies ?
4. Is not monotheism an imperfect and incomplete philosophy ?

[arun]

God is undefinable. God neither means one person nor a group of persons.How foolish is it to quarrell on that subject.

Do you know that in Hinduism honest men(Brahmanas) are known as the creators of DEVs like Lakshmi,Kartik etc. and so their place is above those DEVs ?

[RUDRA]

arun said:

I guess Rudra is not a hindu . He is actually someone of Christian church.

So I am christian, because I don't believe hinduism is just an indo-european pagan faith???

I will never join hands with any western neo-pagan wiccans, and I will always question any neo-nazi mythology about my indian culture.

I am a NRI, but I will always be proud that I am indian.

Why is he putting the same picture again and again in this site ? The reason is clear . Most of the viewers will get a false impression of Hinduism as they know very little about it and already are pre occupied by the ideas propagated by church .

Hey What picture are you taking about, is it the saddhus in my signature??? Sorry they will always be part of hinduism, even if you feel ashamed of them.

I guess Your one of those people (who even thought make alot of noise about respecting your faith) who deep inside feel ashamed of being hindu/indian.

We indians arn't a mirror image of western european pagans, nor do we have act or learn to become like them. I don't care what others think, Truth is what I am representing.

[RUDRA]

arun said:

Rudra wrote:"Monotheism is a very holy religious concept.

Yes, the concept of a supreme power in this divided world is powerful. And it has popped again and again thought out human history.

A belief In a supreme, is the only thing kept india from turning into an atheist/agnostic buddhist country. Its a plus point, there is nothing negative about it. [/quote]

4. Is not monotheism an imperfect and incomplete philosophy?

Monotheism is imperfect, I bet you have no idea what you taking about. What funny is that you are going against majority of the teachings in santana dharma!

Plus, all philosophies are incomplete in one way or other. Very few things can be understood completely in this world. And when you are dealing with the divine, very little, and sometimes close nothing is completely ever known.

Also Why should the concept monotheism be under attack? When its the missionary goals embedded in these faiths that should be under attack.

Jews, sikhs, zoroastrians, bahais, Mandaeism and other monotheisms don't have the missionary zeal that the christians & muslims have. (Plus nobody in their right mind would ever call a christian a pure monotheists either)