PAGAN POWER IN MODERN EUROPE - AND AN HINDU'S VIEW

[RUDRA]

tautalos said:

Can you give examples of those spiritual connections?

You have understand that hinduism like buddhism & jainism is an religion of salvation. These religions came about to both come to terms with and finally destory suffering(in what ever forms it may come).

The cause of suffering is karma(universal principle of cause and effect), which in hinduism is controlled by God or high deities, while buddhism its just a spiritual law of the universe. For karma to work, we have to sow goodness, then we will reap goodness; but if we sow evil, we will reap evil. recarnation is effected by karma, because you can be born in a good life, or a life full of suffering, just because of the past action in another life.

To escape this pointless cycles of death and rebirths(Samsara), and all the suffering and drama is what Indian religions try to do. And finally when liberation(moksa) comes, you became one of the highest gods, or live inside God or you merge into God(losing your-self) all depending on you religious point of view.

Jainism, Hinduism and buddhism are three different religions, but they still have a very similar worldview nonetheless.

Jainism: Hinduism: Buddhism:

[RUDRA]

tautalos said:

As for genetic heritage, take a look at this map:
baz.perlmonk.org/haplogroups.jpg

See how the gene defined in the map as hg1 is dominant in Western Europe and it also exists in the eastern areas where Indo-European languages are spoken, like Ossetia.


Anyway, what matters is, in my opinion, being caucasian and speaking an Indo-European language, since the Aryan folks of Antiquity were not all equal physically.

The problem with this older Map is it over-simplifies the really diversity that exists. Haplogroup 1(hg1), includes different haplotypes like P, R1*and R1b put together in one big group. While R1b is found in europe(almost 98% in western ireland), both P* and R1*, both of whom are older and mostly found in central asia. European hg1 is mostly R1b, but the Ossetia have a mix of P, R1*and R1b.

Most people today feel that the indo-european haplotypes could be definitely R1a1(hg3) or maybe J2(hg9). One or the other, or maybe both!

[geo]

rudra said:

No! There is no proof that Alexander’s army (who weren't all Greek to begin with)

This is not the case up until 331, to say the least... Not only alexander's army was greek, but it was darius army that was not persian, rather multicultural, even having greek mercenaries at its force (see battle of gaugamela).

rudra said:

Again and again so many different Indian peoples have been credited to have been originated from his army by the later European powers.

Have been credited? I don't think so. They themselves say they're descendants of alexander's army troops.

Up until recently there was absolutely no clue in greece of any such existence of self-proclaimed greeks in afganistan and any such notion would be deemed absurd. In 1994, a greek teacher named athanasios lerounis travelled in the area for climbing and he met the kalash. When he returned, he proposed to the greek ministry of education to co-found the building of a school in the area, which is now active. From then, several other individuals from greece have visited the kalash territory, mainly researchers and journalists, while several kalash have also visited greece. I personally know one kalash woman living in the area of megara in attica, married to a greek, with 2 kids.

Frankly, i don't think that any greek genetic influence in Kalash can nowadays be characterized as dominant, imo the majority don't get even close. But that's one thing and there's another: Kalash look upon greece with a nostalgia that moves even me, a definite eurocentrist.

Our dear brothers, Greeks,
I would like to thank you for this great gift you gave to the Kalas people. It is the first time that our Greek brothers think of us. This school will be the beginning of a brighter future for our children. It is the first time that Greeks step their foot in Central Asia after thousands of years… We would be very happy to accept you in our houses. They will be always open for our Greek brothers.
Do not forget us

(from letter of anis umar, kalash teacher)

[geo]

rudra said:

Even before Christianity europeans were still culturally close to the middle-east, but after Christianity the flood-gates reached all the way to ireland.

"Culturally close"? And how would that be?

(if you please, don't make an introduction to civilization, few specific points would do)

[RUDRA]

geo said:

This is not the case up until 331, to say the least...

Why does this matter really? We are talkin about the armys that could have influenced ancient india/pakistan. When alexander marched into pakistan, his army wasn't all greek, it was multiculural..

Have been credited? I don't think so. They themselves say they're descendants of alexander's army troops.

Do you honestly believe that each and everyone of these people I talked about, claimed descendant from alexander's troop. I don't think so, many people like the kalash and croogis didn't even know of alexander at first, but british being so impressed by these peoples felt they had a connection. Well the british were wrong, they can be gay sometimes, and wrong too(they are humans after all).

There is only two ways the kalash would knew of alexander's army. One is islam, and the other is european influence. Also in pakistan the Baluch are said to have Syrian origin, plus the kashmiris and pushtuns are said to have both a greek(alexander's army) & jewish(babylonian exile) origin.

In 1994, a greek teacher named athanasios lerounis travelled in the area for climbing and he met the kalash. When he returned, he proposed to the greek ministry of education to co-found the building of a school in the area, which is now active. From then, several other individuals from greece have visited the kalash territory, mainly researchers and journalists, while several kalash have also visited greece.

Its a good thing when people help out each others. But if these greeks feel that the kalash are of greek descent, then they are living a lie.
I have also heard of few western jews traveling to kashmir because of the jewish claims ;D

I personally know one kalash woman living in the area of megara in attica, married to a greek, with 2 kids.

I personally know of a Filipina woman who married a pakistani man, she also converted to islam and is living in pakistan. Does this mean that people from Philippines are related to pakistanis?

Frankly, i don't think that any greek genetic influence in Kalash can nowadays be characterized as dominant, imo the majority don't get even close. But that's one thing and there's another.

You are right their is no genetic influence from greeks in the kalash. A south indian brahman would be closer to the kalash, than any greeks. There is very little info about these people on the net, but I believe that they are related to the surrounding pakistanis, and maybe they have a central persian connection.

young Kalash women:
www.ease.com/~randyj/ph_18/r18_039cKalash_19.jpg
www.outis.org/img/kafiri01.jpg

These iranians from Yazd look just like many of the kalash I've seen:
www.mssimmons.com/ms/Iran/Eclipse99/People_pictures/People16.htm
www.mssimmons.com/ms/Iran/Eclipse99/People_pictures/People12.htm
www.mssimmons.com/ms/Iran/Eclipse99/People_pictures/People14.htm

Kalash look upon greece with a nostalgia that moves even me, a definite eurocentrist.

The kalash are people trying to survive in the modern world, and their culture is threaten by modern pakistani islam. Westerns, including greeks have tried to help them preserve the culture, and for that they should be thankful. But they are indo-irani peoples, and their future isn't in greece or anywhere eles in europe, but only in india and pakistan.

(from letter of anis umar, kalash teacher)

Touching letter, no doubt this kalash teacher is thanking many greek peoples(people like athanasios lerounis) for helping them cope in this modern world.

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

Sorry I that took so long to answer, I just been so busy this weekend.

tautalos said:

It's precisely on that familiar level that the similarities are greater. I have spoke about the crucial importance of the hearth's sacred fire in Rome and in Greece. Also take a look on Fustel de Coulanges «The Ancient City» where more details about that are given (even concerning the father's acceptance of the child and the ritual of name giving).

I guess I can't take this any further until I read this book «The Ancient City» by Fustel de Coulanges. So we'll leave this subject about ancient Greco-Romans for now

Perhaps. But you can get more information here
www.religioromana.net/index.htm

and here
www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/


and by searching on the internet about Vesta, Roman Goddess of the Sacred Fire of the Hearth and the Fatherland (in Greece, is Hestia).

You can even compare any Slavic deities to Finnish deities to see were I am getting at.

Can you give examples?

Also, how do you know that the influence was not the other way around, i.e., the Slavs over the Finns?
Can you find many similarities between the Finnish Deities and the Turkic Ones?

No! There is no proof that Alexander’s army (who weren't all Greek to begin with) left any impact in the Kalash people,

Geo already answered.

Perhaps. And who can be assured that those Ice-age hunters are not the first Indo-Europeans?

Maybe, but because there remains a Basque-speaking peoples still in Europe today.

They could be neighbours. Likewise, some if not all the birthplaces of Indo-European group had non Indo-Europeans next to them.

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

tautalos said:

It's their right place, isn't it? Israel is for Jews, Jews are for Israel.

Well tell that to the Palestinians who feel that many jews are european fogieners.

Yes, very convenient for the fanatics that don't accept the presence of Israel.

Plus I know few euros and americans who feel jews don't belong in israel.

I can't see why.

If the religion of christ or islam were never born, many pagans faith in much of world who have remained the same.

Again, I did not say the contrary.

The jews wouldn't have done anything to pagan europeans.

Of course not, both because they had no power for that and, besides, Jews, being naturally «snob», they didn't interact with other folks.

Outside of india, most people don't know much about hinduism. But indian jews(bombay jews) and moderate muslims though may have problems accepting deities like Brama, Vishnu or Siva(and the mythology behind them). Yet they don't have problem considering the God(Bhagavan/Isvara) of Upanishads and Vedantas the same as their G-D.

That's precisely the position of many ancient Pagans.
The Christians, they do have a problem with religions that worship several Gods Whose name is not JC.

Bingo there you go, both indians and euros are closer to middle-east, than eachother

No, they are not. In both cases, the closeness to middle-east is superficial and imposed by authorities. And, indeed, that closeness is fading in the West, following the decline of Christianity.

There is strong possiblity that indo-europeans orginated in the middle-east.

Whatever. But their culture is different from the Semitic one, that's what were talking about when mentioning the middle-east influence in Europe and India.

That's beside the point. Both nationalist Hindus and nationalist pagan Europeans refuse any connection to the Semitic middle-east and value above all their Aryan essence.

That's true, but you should remember that modern abrahamic middle-east , is not the anicent Semitic middle-east that influneced both india & europe.

But it derives from it.

[geo]

rudra said:

Why does this matter really? We are talkin about the armys that could have influenced ancient india/pakistan. When alexander marched into pakistan, his army wasn't all greek, it was multiculural..

A rerecruitment of 30000 persians occured in 327. Alexander's army was already circling around modern afganistan area since 329. In 331 alexander's army was all-greek. Figure the stats out.

rudra said:

Do you honestly believe that each and everyone of these people I talked about, claimed descendant from alexander's troop. I don't think so, many people like the kalash and croogis didn't even know of alexander at first, but british being so impressed by these peoples felt they had a connection. Well the british were wrong, they can be gay sometimes, and wrong too(they are humans after all).

I don't 'believe' it, i have heard a kalash talk about it. Now do you honestly believe that 'the english' could brainwash an isolated community in afganistan so that they think they descend from someone who, as you said, did not even know?

rudra said:

There is only two ways the kalash would knew of alexander's army. One is islam, and the other is european influence.

Islam is foreign to the kalash. European influence.. i dont know to what degree such a thing may exist in those regions, but in any case it would be as of late.

rudra said:

I personally know of a Filipina woman who married a pakistani man, she also converted to islam and is living in pakistan. Does this mean that people from Philippines are related to pakistanis?

I refered to this only for the storytelling's sake. Moreover your example is outstreched, since you compare 1/4000 kalash with 1/90000000 philipinese...

rudra said:

You are right their is no genetic influence from greeks in the kalash.

Are you reading what i'm writing?

'No greek genetic influence can nowadays be characterized as dominant' does not mean 'no greek genetic influence'. The first seems logical to me since those people, even if indeed descended from greeks, live away from greek environment for about 2300 years. Nevertheless, certain kalash individuals (out of the more light-colored) could perhaps meet their likes in greece or southern europe today.

www.abc.net.au/foreign/images/kalashkids.jpg
www.mani.org.gr/apopseis/kalas/kalas01.jpg
www.mani.org.gr/apopseis/kalas/kalas08.jpg
www.mani.org.gr/apopseis/kalas/kalas10.jpg
www.mani.org.gr/apopseis/kalas/kalas16.jpg

rudra said:

But they are indo-irani peoples, and their future isn't in greece or anywhere eles in europe, but only in india and pakistan.

I agree, but that is not my point in this conversation. My point is that a greek-kalash link under alexander is very possible to have existed.

traditional clothing: above macedonian, below kalash
www.creternity.com/articles/images/art7pic2Lrg.jpg

groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetMBPhoto&ImageID=nCgAAAHYCnAhsdnaB!tER0zYEmlb6!B78yuQPFo!SBG8

[RUDRA]

geo said:

A rerecruitment of 30000 persians occured in 327. Alexander's army was already circling around modern afganistan area since 329. In 331 alexander's army was all-greek. Figure the stats out.

Again even if the army was over-whelmingly greek, it still doesn't matter because it wasn't 100% greek when they crossed into the Hindu-kush to come into punjab. If greeks in the army influenced the kalash, so did the persians and other people in alexander's army.

I don't 'believe' it, i have heard a kalash talk about it. Now do you honestly believe that 'the english' could brainwash an isolated community in afganistan so that they think they descend from someone who, as you said, did not even know?

All I can say is, Don't believe in everything you hear, because sometimes you could get the wrong/false information.
Plus aren't you the one who said that, and i quote: "Up until recently there was absolutely no clue in greece of any such existence of self-proclaimed greeks in afganistan and any such notion would be deemed absurd." So what changed in greece to make some people like athanasios lerounis to travel all the way to pakistan to meet the kalash?

If it was a new idea to many greeks, and a some have embraced today, why shouldn't it be any different for a few number of kalash, who now feel that this fact also.

Islam is foreign to the kalash. European influence.. i dont know to what degree such a thing may exist in those regions, but in any case it would be as of late.

Islam isn't foreign to the kalash anymore, because a good number of the kalash population has
coverted to it recently. And western European influence is late, but its very important in pakistan, because with it comes modern technology and education.

So you see the english had a real good way of brain-washing(I mean influencing) many pakistanis, and this is by giving them few fictional information from the educational intuitions that they themselves established.

Whatever half-baked ideas that the british came with on the spot, went into their educational establishment(schools). Everybody in pakistan learns about alexander's army from childhood, and many people try to claim descent from him, so why wouldn't the kalash also join in.

I refered to this only for the storytelling's sake. Moreover your example is outstreched, since you compare 1/4000 kalash with 1/90000000 philipinese...

well yes my example its a bit outstreched, but a kalash could marry a tibetian, a japanese, or even a English, and this still wouldn't change one thing. Because interracial marriages doesn't equal a historic connection. Plus I know that you used that for storytelling's sake, but I just had to use the Philippino for my own comparison. ;D

Are you reading what i'm writing?

'No greek genetic influence can nowadays be characterized as dominant' does not mean 'no greek genetic influence'. The first seems logical to me since those people, even if indeed descended from greeks, live away from greek environment for about 2300 years. Nevertheless, certain kalash individuals (out of the more light-colored) could perhaps meet their likes in greece or southern europe today.

Well I guess I gave you the benafit of the doubt, but if you feel that these light-skinned kalash have a slight greek influence, then I personally feel you are wrong. Because we don't need the greek army in explain why there is european look in some of the kalash!
dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/archives/000510.html

[RUDRA]

geo said:

Nevertheless, certain kalash individuals (out of the more light-colored) could perhaps meet their likes in greece or southern europe today.

www.abc.net.au/foreign/images/kalashkids.jpg
www.mani.org.gr/apopseis/kalas/kalas01.jpg
www.mani.org.gr/apopseis/kalas/kalas08.jpg
www.mani.org.gr/apopseis/kalas/kalas10.jpg
www.mani.org.gr/apopseis/kalas/kalas16.jpg

It important to remember that the most lightest and european looking pakistani peoples aren't the Kalash(they are number 2 on the list), but their neighbors to the east the Hunza. They both live near the chitral valley, so they both would have influenced eachother in their long history in the valley together.
Here's a few things about Hunza that I posted earlier about:
dodona.proboards35.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=guess&thread=1131421629&page=9

And here's more pictures of Burusho speakers:
www.erwinvoogt.com/overland/pix/pakistan/hunzameisjes.jpg
t-taya.hp.infoseek.co.jp/tabi/tabi_hunza_kodomo2.jpg
osaka.cool.ne.jp/long410/hunza29-22a.jpgwww.bowkera.com/images/Trip%20Pix/SilkRoad97/friends3.jpg
www.users.dircon.co.uk/~c-allen/image/BrownMan.gif
www.leelau.net/chai/images/Pakistan/hunza_kids3.jpgwww.sandalshoes.net/Photos/HunzaNoureen.JPG

traditional clothing: above macedonian, below kalash
www.creternity.com/articles/images/art7pic2Lrg.jpg

fascinating comparison between the macedonian and kalash women, and I can't explain the similarities. But I tell you one thing, kalash women have many similarities in traditional clothing with there neighbors to the east.

Compair these Kalash:
sunyaprajna.com/Photos/Kalash.jpg
pchanez.club.fr/Images/kalash.jpg

With Drokpas in Kashmir:
www.culturalportraits.com/Photos/Drokpa%20Women-L.jpg
www.lehladakhtours.com/images/drokpa1.jpg
www.jktourism.org/cities/ladakh/images/ho79.jpg
www.momotours.com/images/lehwmn.jpg
www.ptvworldnews.com.pk/116.jpg

With ladakh women:
30molongest.cicv.fr/ladakh-himalaya/images/ladakh/Ladakh-People_filles.jpg
www.leh-ladakh.com/gifs/ladakh-women.jpg
www.ladakhtraveltours.com/jpg/ladakhi_lady.jpg
www.webindia123.com/himachal/images/woman-traditiionaldress.jpg
www.htwandelreizen.nl/fotohima/spiti02.jpg

With kinnauris:
himachal.indiantravelportal.com/tribes/gifs/kinnauri-women.jpg
hptdc.nic.in/photo/c409.jpg
hpkinnaur.nic.in/images/tradess.jpg
www.hilandertravels.com/kinnaur1.jpg
www.himachalonline.net/images/hp.jpg

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

Linguistic connection don't prove there is an common shared priesthood.

But prove that there is a common shared spiritual culture. That's the essential aspect.

To say indo-european language had a common origin is one thing, but to say that priestly knowlege travel with it, is another story altogther.

But there are good indications of that, so evident that they look fabricated, but they aren't.

Plus being an priest is pretty easy, all you have do is memorize rituals & cermony.

I don't think that memorizing literaly hundreds of rituals and myths is easy. Not at all. The Druids spent twenty years doing it, according Caesar. It's not likely that the Brahmans devoted less time to their studies.

The point is that the Druids and Flamines would have evolved in europe, and the Brahmans in north-west india, all after the expansion of the indo-europeans.

To evolve, yes. But the origin was before.

But where is the proof that Celts and indians preserved the older priestly order. Even the kalash peoples(the only oldest surviving indo-europeans) don't even have an powerful priestly class, and they reach the spirit-world useing shamans and mediums.

Nothing proves that such condition would be the initial situation of the Indo-Europeans. Both Indian Aryans and Celts preserve very archaic aspects in their cultures.

To say an migrating peoples would carry with them a complex priestly order in their long journey, sounds far-fetched.

Not really, since, for those folks, religion was the crucial aspect of reality.

I used them, only to make a point that any cultures could have complex priestly order. If the anicent egyptians in their long history adopted an indo-european language,

But things don't happen that way. Entire civilizations don't just decide changing their language. So, your comparison is not accurate.

The problem is that if ancient israelis were indo-european speakers, I or anyone else could have gotten away with it.

What do you mean?

[Tautalos]

rudra said:

Most people today feel that the indo-european haplotypes could be definitely R1a1(hg3) or maybe J2(hg9).

Bedouin??... I don't think so.

[geo]

rudra said:

If greeks in the army influenced the kalash, so did the persians and other people in alexander's army.

Not influenced'... kalash myth has it that specificaly 5 greek troops made the kalash population.

rudra said:

Plus aren't you the one who said that, and i quote: "Up until recently there was absolutely no clue in greece of any such existence of self-proclaimed greeks in afganistan and any such notion would be deemed absurd." So what changed in greece to make some people like athanasios lerounis to travel all the way to pakistan to meet the kalash?

From what i read lerounis went to pakistan for climbing.

rudra said:

Islam isn't foreign to the kalash anymore, because a good number of the kalash population has coverted to it recently.

It's not about some converts, it's a matter of culture. Islam IS foreign and unless the kalash give up their culture, will remain so.

They use stools and chairs for yahve's sake!

rudra said:

Whatever half-baked ideas that the british came with on the spot, went into their educational establishment(schools). Everybody in pakistan learns about alexander's army from childhood, and many people try to claim descent from him, so why wouldn't the kalash also join in.

Since the educational system is inexistent in the kalash, they couldn't have been influenced by 'the british'.

Moreover if there exists such a brainwashing, it's the pakistanis that should be claiming descend from alexander's army, and i don't believe that's the case.

Even more, kalash myth of greek descend pre-dates the british.

rudra said:

Plus I know that you used that for storytelling's sake, but I just had to use the Philippino for my own comparison. ;D

Why your own? Do you like philippinoes? ;D

rudra said:

Well I guess I gave you the benafit of the doubt,

I can't understand what you're saying!

rudra said:

Compair these Kalash:
sunyaprajna.com/Photos/Kalash.jpg
pchanez.club.fr/Images/kalash.jpg

With Drokpas in Kashmir:
www.culturalportraits.com/Photos/Drokpa%20Women-L.jpg
www.lehladakhtours.com/images/drokpa1.jpg
www.jktourism.org/cities/ladakh/images/ho79.jpg
www.momotours.com/images/lehwmn.jpg
www.ptvworldnews.com.pk/116.jpg

With ladakh women:
30molongest.cicv.fr/ladakh-himalaya/images/ladakh/Ladakh-People_filles.jpg
www.leh-ladakh.com/gifs/ladakh-women.jpg
www.ladakhtraveltours.com/jpg/ladakhi_lady.jpg
www.webindia123.com/himachal/images/woman-traditiionaldress.jpg
www.htwandelreizen.nl/fotohima/spiti02.jpg

With kinnauris:
himachal.indiantravelportal.com/tribes/gifs/kinnauri-women.jpg
hptdc.nic.in/photo/c409.jpg
hpkinnaur.nic.in/images/tradess.jpg
www.hilandertravels.com/kinnaur1.jpg
www.himachalonline.net/images/hp.jpg

Indeed, there are similarities. But the similarity with the makedonian is more striking, because the two clothings are 4.500 km away from eachother, something like compairing greece with tanzania or compairing pakistan with singapore.

[RUDRA]

tautalos said:

Perhaps. But you can get more information here
www.religioromana.net/index.htm
and here
www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/
and by searching on the internet about Vesta, Roman Goddess of the Sacred Fire of the Hearth and the Fatherland (in Greece, is Hestia).

Thank you, I am looking into it

tautalos said:

Can you give examples?

Also, how do you know that the influence was not the other way around, i.e., the Slavs over the Finns?
Can you find many similarities between the Finnish Deities and the Turkic Ones?

I can give you few examples:
1. Tharapita or Taara (Turisas) is a god worshipped by Estonians, he was also known to the Slavs. Many peoples who speak Finno-Ugric languages seem familiar with him also, the Khants (Torum), the Samis (Turms), and the Samoyed (Tere).
2. The Finnish God Perkele are also known in Latvia (Pçrkons), Lithuania (Perkunas), Prussia (Percunis), and Poland (Perkun or Perun).
3. The dumb devil figure that can be tricked easily can be found in many Finno-Ugric peoples east of Russia.

Few things could be influence from Slavs, but I feel most of it is Finno-Ugric traditions in Slavic peoples.

tautalos said:

Geo already answered.

As you can see, I am already arguing with Geo on this.

tautalos said:

They could be neighbours. Likewise, some if not all the birthplaces of Indo-European group had non Indo-Europeans next to them.

Well I guess indo-Europeans could have originate in Eastern Europe (Ukraine), but I think it’s most likely that western and central Europeans weren't always speaking an indo-European language. Basques are language isolate, and at one time they could have had neighboring related languages surrounding them in western and central Europe. As for the Iberians, they only started to speak an indo-European tongue after the coming of the Celts and Romans(which historically is very recent).

[RUDRA]

tautalos said:

Yes, very convenient for the fanatics that don't accept the presence of Israel.

Many middle-easterners see it this way, not just the Islamic fanatics. But I agree with you, Jews belong in Israel (At least that’s what the Tanakh, Bible and Quran all says ).

I can't see why.

A few euros now miss the Jews, because when they meet up with the descents of European Jews(now living in Israel and north America), they feel that they can relate to them and wish they weren't so separated in Israel.

While other Europeans and Americans sympathies with the Palestinians(because they are seen as the under-dogs), and feel that Jews don't belong in Israel.

Again, I did not say the contrary.

Sorry I though you were pining all the blame on Jews, and not the Christians and Muslims. It’s my fault

Of course not, both because they had no power for that and, besides, Jews, being naturally «snob», they didn't interact with other folks.

I don't believe all ancient Jews were snobs (some may have been), many just minded there own business, and wanted to keep their religion and culture pure and to themselves(nothing is wrong with that). If Jews got the power, they wouldn't have been crazily converting people like Muslims and Christians. Pagan European cultures would have still survived.

No, they are not. In both cases, the closeness to middle-east is superficial and imposed by authorities. And, indeed, that closeness is fading in the West, following the decline of Christianity.

I could even say that for most Europeans, the indo-European influence was both superficial and imposed by small ruling authorities. I personally feel both middle-eastern and indo-European influence is there, but the majority of European traditions are even older.

But it derives from it.

Ancient Semitic middle-east is older than Jews, Muslims and Christians. Plus they were polytheistic. Why would their influence be a bad thing?