RUDRA
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 8, 2005 17:48:55 GMT -5
But prove that there is a common shared spiritual culture. That's the essential aspect. Is there a shared spiritual culture, of course there is. But what I been trying to say all this time was in many cases it has been weakened and watered down, both because of the long distances and the influence of other older European cultures. There are no good indications of organized priestly knowledge traveling with indo-Europeans Language and culture. Whatever little we know of the Druids, tells that they were very Different from Vedic Brahmans in their religious worldview. Read Saint Eligius sermons about Druidic practices to the pagan people of Flanders: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#Late_Druidic_survivals_in_Flanders I wasn't talking about a complex priesthood like the druids and Brahmans. These clergy men were in many ways learned religious scholars, not just priests. I was saying that its not Hard starting a simple priestly tradition, all you need is an inspired creative person/people, to come up with rituals to practice, and in the process you create priesthood. Later under the Right conditions it could blossom into a more complex tradition. So druids could have come about on their own, without any connection to Brahmans. their origin could be in Europe Again to preserve the very archaic aspects of their cultures is one thing, but to say Indians and Celts kept alive an older priestly order, is another. There is no proof that the Druids and Brahmans share a similar origin or traditions (unless you can show me solid evidences). When Celtics came into central and western Europe, they absorbed many of the cultures that were already there. Many other Europeans, like the baltics, slavs, and germens never come into contact with such very devolved cultures like the Celtics did in Western Europe. And Guess what they don't have complex priesthood like the Celts, I think it’s more than just a Coincidence!  Pre-celtic british ruins: www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/logos/stonehenge.JPGwww.guidelinestobritain.com/photos/stonehenge.jpgaway.com/gifs/location/uk/megaliths/brogdar.jpg Then explain why it didn't survive in the indo-European peoples coming into eastern and Northern Europe? Why didn't it survive in Baltic peoples, who seem to have kept the purest form of the indo-european cultures? Religion was the crucial aspect of reality for them too. Why isn't it? I mean this happen to peoples living in present day turkey, it happened to North African Berbers, and it seems to have happened to ancient western Europeans who switched To Celtic languages. If ancient Israelis decided changing their language(only their language, and nothing else) to an indo-european one, early in their history. Some People would claim they were descendents from Aryans. |
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RUDRA
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 8, 2005 17:58:17 GMT -5
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RUDRA
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 9, 2005 13:46:41 GMT -5
Not influenced'... kalash myth has it that specificaly 5 greek troops made the kalash population. How do you know for sure that kaslash are the only one with legends like this in pakistan? What if they got these ideas from others (pashtun, hunza) trying to claim descent from alexander's troops? How do know for sure that this is originally a kalash myth, and not coming from somebody eles? even if that's so, he now believes the idea that kalash originated from alexander's army. And I believe this is wrong information that he is spreading back home in greece. It's not about kalash are giving up their culture, which they are not. It's all about them (kalash) getting influenced by their neighbours, which they are. Even many pagan kalash today eat, dress, and give themselves muslims names like their other pakistani neighbours. Even if they got stools and chairs from outside (greeks) doesn't mean they are descended from the troops. Plus how do you know for sure that ancient indians didn't use or know of stools and chairs they have schools up there, both because outside (western) and pakistani goverament help. Believe it. There is more peoples in pakistan that are trying to claim descend from alexander's army, not just kalash It can pre-date the british, but who said that the neighbouring muslims didn't bring the idea to them I am not going to answer that ;D don't worry, I just thought you started to agree with my ideas, I guess i was wrong  But if peoples to the east(kashimir) have more similarities with the kalash, that's also important. Because it means that they had a closer influence, and they didn't need the greeks army( who didn't even bring their women with them) from far away to give them some of the european cultural influence. |
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RUDRA
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 9, 2005 14:40:20 GMT -5
As for genetic heritage, take a look at this map:  Here's a better genetic map of europe I found on internet for you, tautalos: www.ethnoancestry.com/images/haplo2.jpg  Haplotypes R1a1(HG3) and J2(HG9) are the only two Y-chomosome markers found in good numbers in both India and Europe. |
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Post by Tautalos on Dec 11, 2005 22:49:52 GMT -5
I can give you few examples: 1. Tharapita or Taara (Turisas) is a god worshipped by Estonians, he was also known to the Slavs. Perhaps as a minor Deity. As much as I know, Turisas was never too important amongst the Slavs. All of them are non Indo-European. Actually, Perkunas, Percunis and Perkun or Perun, are all Indo-European. Quoting from a site about the matter: Perkwúnos Perkwúnos ("Striker") is the god of thunder and lightning. He is a god of war, particularly against outside dangers and in defense of his people. Some Indo-European versions of him (Thor and Mars) are associated with farmers. In some of the descendant traditions his name comes from one of his titles, the Thunderer. Thus we have the Norse Thor (<*Thunaraz) and Celtic Taranis. Another name by which he might be know is *Koryonos, “god of the warband.” Perkwúnos survived by name in Albania (Perendi), Thrace (basically the area of modern Bulgaria) (Perkos), India (Parjanya), and Anatolia (Pirwa). His worship survived best among the Balts, under the name of Perkunas. This Baltic hero was a defender of truth, protector against evil, and ensurer of fertility. Like Perkunas, Perkwúnos has the double-headed axe for his symbol. This may be of the sacred metal iron. It may also be of flint. In European folklore, Neolithic axes, often turned up by farmers when ploughing, were believed to be actual thunderbolts. This connects with a belief held of Perkunas that the first thunderstorms of spring fertilized the fields. These beliefs connected with Perkunas were most likely held regarding Perkwúnos. This great fighter is a therefore a defender of truth, a provider of fertility, and a source of protection to his followers. His primary myth tells how he killed a mighty serpent. In chapter 6 this myth will be told in full; for now, though, I would like to emphasize that because of it he is the original and continual protector of Cosmos against Chaos. His weapon is a club or double-headed axe, the wagros. He throws this and it returns to him to be thrown again. It does not take much imagination to see an image of lightning here. Perkwúnos' sacred animal is the bull. The bull is an animal of great power, rampant sexuality, and danger. The hoofbeats of a running bull suggest thunder. One of the Proto-Indo-European words for "bull," *wisontos, means "the one who urinates." The combination of bellowing and urination brings to mind the god of thunderstorms. You can read more about the Indo-European pantheon here: ceisiwrserith.com/pier/deities.htmSee for instances the connection between the Aryan Aryaman and the Irish Eremon... Search for yourself about this and much more in ceisiwrserith.com/pier/index.htmFinno-Ugrics are not Indo-European... Dumézil proved that there was a sort of a «evil» or at least dubious Joker in other Indo-European pantheons, like, for instances, Loki in Scandinavia and another one in Ossetia. Yes, I am following Yes, and in Caucasus there are also non Indo-European languages - and, curiously enough, a region named Iberia. Also, it is interesting to notice that «Siberia» is very similar to «Iberia»... No, they always spoke a non Indo-European language until the Romans arrive. Before that, Iberia was divided between two major areas, generally speaking: center, north and west were Indo-European, while south and east was non Indo-European. And the first Indo-Europeans who arrived to Iberia (maybe before 1000 a.c.) were probably not Celts. |
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Post by Tautalos on Dec 11, 2005 22:57:34 GMT -5
I don't believe all ancient Jews were snobs (some may have been), Some Jews deeply hated the non Jews, as is written in Talmude and as both Tacitus and Celsus testified. In those times, there was no powerful technology that could allow such an imposition on the part of a small rulling aristocracy. Also, a language, a pantheon, and several traditions, are not what can be considered as minor or superficial influences. |
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Post by Tautalos on Dec 12, 2005 0:40:17 GMT -5
Is there a shared spiritual culture, of course there is. But what I been trying to say all this time was in many cases it has been weakened and watered down, both because of the long distances and the influence of other older European cultures. Actually, the influences of older European cultures is not a real argument. People don't know much about that older European culture. All that is known for sure about the historic and known European folks, is from Indo-European cultures. Yes, there are. Not only concerning rituals (asvamedha) but also concerning names of priesthood (flamine - brahmane). Concerning the flamine - brahmane correspondence: - the flamine dialis (priest of Jupiter) can't make oaths, and the brahmane can't be called to testify; - both can't engage in war; - there are forbiden issues for both of them, such as dogs, horses and olive oil; - both can't go near a funerary pyre; - both can't drink fermented beverages; - both can't touch non cooked meat; - both can't be naked; - both have wives who collaborate in the rituals; - both dress in white, like the druids and the Persian mages. As for the Druids, even the very word «Druid» shows a common root with Aryan India: Dru + wid (The very wise) where «wid» is related to the Aryan word «Veda» (Knowledge), and the Latin «Vedere» (To see; and to see is to know). Also, the importance of sacred groves in both India and Celtic lands seems to be more than a coincidence... Also, the irregular verbs are the norm in both Irish and Sanskrit, contrary to what happens in other Western Indo-European languages. Meanwhile, there seems to exist a «striking resemblance between the Hindu and the Irish systems of law» (Dillon and Chadwick, quoted in «The Druids», by Peter Beresford Ellis»). Moreover, the importance that the sea-urchin had for the druids was perhaps clarified by the speculations of the brahmanes about the cosmic egg. Both druids and brahmanes were thinkers, wisemen, magicians, poets, teachers, capable of producing illusions and controlling the elements. www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/logos/stonehenge.JPG[/urlAs for Stonehenge and other megalithical places, they were not important neither in Celtic ritual nor in Celtic mythology. The ceremonies of the druids were celebrated amidst the woods, not in the cromlechs and alike. As for the Balts, they preserved some aspects of Indo-European culture, but why must they be considered as the most Indo-European folk in all cases? «Indo-Europeaness» seems to be like a puzzle - each Indo-European folk kept a part of the original traditions. No, it did not. There was a military imposition in Turkey. No, it did not. Arab was imposed by force; but, today, there are tribes insisting on the preservation of Berberian language, hence the conflicts between Arabs and Berbers. Nothing is clear in that case. [/quote] If ancient Israelis decided changing their language(only their language, and nothing else) to an indo-european one, early in their history. Some People would claim they were descendents from Aryans.[/quote] Things like that don't happen. It's not real. It's like saying that if people decided to fly, they would be considered as half birds. |
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Post by Tautalos on Dec 12, 2005 6:22:48 GMT -5
As for genetic heritage, take a look at this map: Here's a better genetic map of europe I found on internet for you, tautalos: www.ethnoancestry.com/images/haplo2.jpg Haplotypes R1a1(HG3) and J2(HG9) are the only two Y-chomosome markers found in good numbers in both India and Europe. Thank you, but it does not look much more accurate. There is no reference to India and the near east, nor to Iran, etc.. Also, there is no difference between the Basks and the Cornish, i.e., the specific Bask element is not observed (did it vanish between the two researches?). And there is no reference to R1A1 in Portugal, that there was in the other map. One way or another, R1b is probably a variant of the R1A1, which still shows a connection. |
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RUDRA
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 21, 2005 2:23:29 GMT -5
Perhaps as a minor Deity. As much as I know, Turisas was never too important amongst the Slavs. Perhaps, but we can't never be for sure, because alot things in ancient northern European history isn’t best preserved. Still he was known in Poland and Slavs living near Germany. Perkele would very much be indo-European god, so you win. ;D But there could still be non-indo-European influence in even him, because there is chance that Neolithic axes and flints are older religious symbols in europe. This dumb devil figure can also be found in many slavic mythology, not just in Finno-Ugric cultures Loki in Scandinavia is a trickster shape-shifter (Sex-changing) figure that has many similarities other mythical figures in the east(Finno-Ugric peoples). Interesting, could be that at one time there was a basque/caucasus connection. It seems that anicent european history is too complicated It can't all be explained in this forum, even by both of us Yes, still parts of north-west spain (modern basque country) even then could have been non-Indo-European Territory. |
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 21, 2005 2:43:37 GMT -5
Some Jews deeply hated the non Jews, as is written in Talmude and as both Tacitus and Celsus testified. Some did hate pagans, but their hate of Romans (Tacitus and Celsus) would be political and not just cultural. Talmud has opinions of several rabbis, many didn't agree even with each other. Jews, before the coming of Christians and Muslims, lived in peace with pagan traditions around them. Jews never in mass numbers destroyed temples and holy places of other religions, or even force coverted the Pagan populations. Jews mainly got violent, trying to defend their religion, and way of life. Most could be overly sensative at times. A language, some pantheons, and few traditions can be pushed by a small ruling aristocracy, no problem. The Things is some Europeans were heavily influenced by indo-European tradition, while some where slightly touched by it. Its important to find who is who. Celtics could have less indo-european influence, than Baltics. A powerfully richer minority could push their influence easily onto others. |
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 21, 2005 3:20:12 GMT -5
I have to say this is really good stuff. But don't think you have won me over completely, because of it Its interresting that the solar-god Aryaman, could have some connection to the Irish Eremon |
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RUDRA
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 21, 2005 4:04:11 GMT -5
there are forbiden issues for both of them, such as dogs, horses and olive oil Are you saying that it’s forbidden to own these items, or it’s forbidden to come near them? There is no ban with olive oil in Hinduism. Dogs were seen as dirty in Indian culture, but a Brahman can own one. I am not sure if Brahmans could own horses, but he could always come near one Brahmans can go near funerary pyre, because they have to do rituals for the dead many times Brahmans can't drink when performing rituals, priests(no matter what their religion) have stay focused when doing rituals. But the complete ban on alcohol was more recent for brahmans Do you mean eating non-cooked meat, or just touch it? Because when doing ritual sacrifice, both have to touch dead animals Maybe its common courtesy when doing rituals next other peoples, but there nothing stopping them if they have to renounce the material world. In Hinduism & Jainism monks and mystics may sometimes renounce even their clothes to completly live a life of poverty. This could be some-kind indo-Europeans connection, but its important to remember that the colors white is important many different cultures in world. Not just in india & europe, so it could still have come about independently, maybe. |
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 21, 2005 4:08:48 GMT -5
Also, the importance of sacred groves in both India and Celtic lands seems to be more than a coincidence... sacred groves in India??? Out-door shines and sacred trees are important in hinduism. But I have only heard of sacred groves in dravidian and tribal cultures My question is where are these Celtic laws, because no recorded laws from the Celtics have even survived. Ancient Britains seem to have abandoned Stonehenge, even before the coming of the Celts. Its seems there was a cultural decline in Britain, And many sites were abandoned, long before the Celts. We also don't know if the people who build the megalithic, didn't also worship amidst the woods. Its because they have one of oldest version indo-europeans languages in europe. Plus they were isolated from outside influence for most part(You can see this even in their language). They also seem to have the most in-common with indo-Irani Religions. I always thought I would see more of this in the Slavs, but its funny that a people who were less influenced by Iranians, could be more closer to their religion, than the Slavs. AS for the puzzle part. Yeah right, its kind of like a puzzle. but the way I see it, is like a giant migration (starting of in southern russia) that lost most of its influence as it reached the western-most of europe The military imposition in Turkey worked well, because they don't speak their older indo-european languages anymore Arab didn't imposed by force, at least they didn't have to push themselves too much. Many north-Africans were easily arabized, they toke in the arab culture happily, and the main push was because of islam. Those north-african who still speak their native languages do so, because they tried hard to keep their traditions alive (even if many converted to islam). Those Berbers who survived had to struggle, just like other peoples who came into to contact with islamic arabs(Bejas, Somalis, Persians, Kurds, and Nubians). Arabization is mostly culturally imposed, not completely military imposed. But things like this can happen, and it did happen. A good example is the egyptian coptics. When the muslim arabs came into egypt, they converted many to islam. IN the process Arabization took place. Many egyptians started seeing themselves as arabs, and started speaking arabic. Soon the christians also started speaking arabic (only using coptic in worship). SO the Copts are falsely seen as christians arabs now, even thought their culture is mostly still egyptian, and all they did was change their language. |
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 21, 2005 4:10:14 GMT -5
Actually, the influences of older European cultures is not a real argument. People don't know much about that older European culture. All that is known for sure about the historic and known European folks, is from Indo-European cultures. You do have a point, because many older European cultures didn't survive, we can't compare them today. because only a few still live on. But thats not the only problem. Many European ancient traditions were destroyed by Christians. Only a fraction of the myths, rituals, and culture have survived in modern indo-european pagans. So we don't have good enough information to point to older European cultures, because a big part of picture is missing, because of the Christians. Christianity went after all older europeans faiths: basque, celts, finns, balts, and others. Its hard for both you or me to prove both our points completely, because of a lack of proof on both sides. Indo-europeans connections have been worked & studied to death, but There was never a good amount of study taken to find out the older european impact on indo-europeans. But I have seen enough and my gut feeling says its very strong. More Scholarly work in the future have to be done to prove me right, or wrong. |
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Post by RUDRA on Dec 21, 2005 4:25:32 GMT -5
I only hope European peoples can heal their old wounds, and start re-building from what-ever which still remains . Ancient europeans pagans (both indo-european and non-indo-europeans) had some of most beautiful poetic religions traditions, and it sad(a shame really) that most of it got lost in the Christian period.  As a Hindu, you pagan europeans have my respect  . Because even after all this time, many of you are still passionate about preserving your ancient faiths. I only pray, that greater things will follow you guys |
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. Because even after all this time, many of you are still passionate about preserving your ancient faiths. I only pray, that greater things will follow you guys