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Post by mike2 on Jun 16, 2005 23:39:18 GMT -5
No, that's unfair, people who's mother tongue is Spanish are Hispanic... Which is fine. ...except that in the USA the term has developed a more racial and ethnic meaning which seems to confuse everyone no end Exactly. That's what the big fuss is all about. Case in point, my personal experience: I didn't like it when I saw an upper class white girl (who was announced to be the valedictorian of my school) get a minority scholarship on Senior Awards night just because her last name is Garcia. That's bullshit and is the result of the racialization of the word "Hispanic."
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Post by mike2 on Jun 17, 2005 0:48:22 GMT -5
Ummm... what? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. It's like words are coming out of your mouth but there is no relevant point... you're an Argentine and therefore a South American? So what? What does that have to do with anything? You approve of the Hispanic race myth or something?
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Post by mike2 on Jun 17, 2005 1:33:47 GMT -5
Gotcha.
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Post by humantag on Jun 17, 2005 5:19:54 GMT -5
I think is a cultural rather than a racial distinction that people make. For artists it is a matter of convenience: if they want to sell their records or movies to the "latino" market then they are latinos; If they want to reach a wider audience then they are white. You get the idea! You make it sound much more innocent and flexibile than it actually is. The fact is 'Latinos' are never classified as white in the U.S. media, regardless of how rich, European or caucasoid they look. I have even seen articles decribing the well nigh albino Cameron Dias as one who 'could pass for white' (implying of course that she isn't). The only place in U.S. society where the fact that Hispanic is not a race is clearly stated is in the census forms (in which they tortuously disgtinguish between white non-hispanic, black non-hispanic, white hispanic, and black hispanic and such). Also, once in a blue moon you might see a barely visible footnote to some breakdown of statistics by 'race and ethnicity' whispering 'Hispanics can be of any race'. Most Americans remain ignorant of this of course. It is this constant labeling of Hispanics as 'non-white' in U.S. media, coupled with the fact that the overwhelming majority of media representations of 'Hispanics' in U.S. media are white (usually with typical Med features and coloring) that has led to the now widespread confusion in the U.S. as to what a white person looks like. The media in the U.S. also tends to be very much informed by a 'politically correct', white guilt sensibility, with all its associated pre-occupations with race. As such, U.S. media tends to be replete with gratuitous references to race and ethnicity. For instance, the fact that Jennifer Lopez or Eva Longoria are 'Latinas' is almost always noted when they are mentioned. While people outside the U.S. can readily see how this is divisive and reinforces consciousness of racial and ethnic divisions, unfortunately, in the U.S. it is seen as a way of proving how tolerant and open minded and accepting one is about race and 'diversity'. Again, as I have stated many times previously on these boards, our European and other non-American friends must resist the temptation to see this as stemming from some cruel, Nordic, 'Anglo-stocracy' in America. That's really not the source of this nonsense at all. Rather, it is increasingly chic to identify as a 'non-white victim' in the US. Basically, if you are dark enough to pass for Italian in America, you can make up any tale of how sorrowful and woeful it is to grow up 'dark' in America, and regardless of your social strata, your claims will not be challenged - your hand will be held and your head will be patted. This is the white guilt reflex. Critical thinking vanishes as soon as ethnicity enters the picture. It's not a case of some Anglo elite imposing the non-white label on Spaniards. In fact, white Spaniards more often than not encourage their being labeled as non-white. Being labeled 'non-white' carries with it many benfits - elegibility for Affirmative Action programs, set asides for business contracts, and so forth. It also means being spared the burden of guilt - you are no longer the oppressor but the victim. You get to be a Star bellied Sneech (a Dr. Seuss reference - check it out ), while the Anglos get stuck with a scarlet 'R' on their chest for 'Racist' . Ethnicity is increasingly seen as 'sexy' and 'hip', whilst 'whiteness' is increasingly associated with being decidedly 'un-hip', shallow, and bigoted. There's been a lot of talk about the movie 'Spanglish', yet no notice of the fact that the white European, Spanish star of 'Spanglish' never complained about being cast as a mestiza who is awkward in 'Caucasian society'. Nor did any other of the growing number of white Latin stars in America. Chances are - if she's anything like virtually all of the other white Latin celebs - she would not hesitate for a moment to identify as 'non-white', and would probably claim to be a victim of white racism as well (this despite her fame and fortune). And nobody would challenge such absurd claims. The multi-millioned, spoiled white European aristicrat Antonio Banderas has publicly described himself as an oppressed non-white many many times. No one laughed, but many a blue collar wage slave Anglo probably shook their head, wiped a tear and thought 'poor Antonio - we whites are so mean'. This is about excess white guilt - mostly Anglo white guilt - and widespread ignorance reiniforced by a race obsessed, PC media. Not Anglo arrogance or 'Nordicism' (99% of Americans probably wouldn't even know what a 'Nordic' might be ;D). I suspect that at some point in the not too distant future, when the Anglo percentage of the U.S. population starts to draw perilously close to the 50% range, that's when the Anglo populace will start to feel genuinely threatened. That's when some of these extremist groups like the militias and the skinheads and such will start to gain credibility in the eyes of an increasingly marginalized Anglo population. Then we'll probably see the inevitable backlash to all of this - probably a pretty bloody one as well. We are sowing the seeds of a Balkan bloodbath here.
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Post by eufrenio on Jun 17, 2005 7:59:08 GMT -5
It is this constant labeling of Hispanics as 'non-white' in U.S. media, coupled with the fact that the overwhelming majority of media representations of 'Hispanics' in U.S. media are white (usually with typical Med features and coloring) that has led to the now widespread confusion in the U.S. as to what a white person looks like. Is is possible that many US Hispanics actually like to see themselves portrayed by European actors? Does it flatter them in some way? On the other hand, the US media, by their use of Europeans in Hispanic parts also cater to Euro-American tastes. That´s a possible explanation. Of course, Paz Vega and Banderas and Penélope Cruz make big money in Hollywood playing Hispanic parts. Aristocrat? Banderas is of lower middle class background as far as I know. He´s rich now that he´s become a celebrity in the USA. Of course, growing up in Malaga, Spain, he never encountered "discrimination" and all that jazz. As a Spaniard, my main reservation with the label "Hispanic" applied to my countrymen does not lie with the ethnic or cultural implications- imprecise as they may be- but with its vast inaccuracy as a geo-political designation, because obviously Spain is not a country in the Spanish-speaking area of the Americas. Banderas and Penelope are laughed at here in Spain because they try to pass for something they are not, i.e., Latin-americans.. Now Paz Vega, born and bred in Seville, is playing the same game. Personally, it does not bother me to see her play Mexican maids. ;D Certainly, affirmative action and the anti-euro cultural and political trend now prevalent in the USA need to be removed or soon enough ordinary White Americans wil find themselves alienated in their own country.
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 17, 2005 8:09:51 GMT -5
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 17, 2005 8:17:47 GMT -5
enfrenio
"Certainly, affirmative action and the anti-euro cultural and political trend now prevalent in the USA need to be removed or soon enough ordinary White Americans wil find themselves alienated in their own country."
anti eruo cultural trend? america isnt euro
political anti euro trend? its more like anti american trend.
btw affirmative action what do you mean enfrenio?
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Post by eufrenio on Jun 17, 2005 8:31:27 GMT -5
enfrenio "Certainly, affirmative action and the anti-euro cultural and political trend now prevalent in the USA need to be removed or soon enough ordinary White Americans wil find themselves alienated in their own country." anti eruo cultural trend? america isnt euro The USA was founded, settled and developed by populations of European descent in their vast majority. That makes them "euro" whether you or they don´t like being called Europeans.. See above. You know, discrimination in hiring and education against white americans, that pesky programme called Affirmative Action... That´s an outrage!
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 17, 2005 9:00:01 GMT -5
Speaking of discrimination and "white guilt," yeah it's true: When I think of historically oppressed people I usually think of those poor white Spaniards who took over half the globe, killed millions of Indians and introduced negro slaves to the New World. How those poor white Spaniards suffered! They're not like those bad Nazi Germans. Remember when Nazi Germany spread their empire all over the Earth--- Oops. Oh, wait, they didn't! Remember how those Nazis used negro slaves and--- Oops. Sorry. They didn't do that, either. Or those Nazis! --With their indefatigable racism and brutality, how they spread the German language to the four corners of the world and--- Oh, darn! --That's not true either. So . . .um . . . you mean Spain was far more destructive in world history than the Nazis? --Wow! Poor Spaniards. So . . . um . . . non-white . . . so . . . er . . . oppressed. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha
P.S.--This is what cracks me up about scholarships for so-called "Hispanics". Statistically, Hispanic is a euphemism for Mexican. [They far outnumber every other group.] And the newest Mexicans statistically are poor Indians. These "newest Mexicans" don't statistically finish high school. So all those college scholarships usually go to blue-eyed descendants of Spaniards just as Mike the Briton observed. In my own experience I saw the blue-eyed son of a Cuban surgeon accept a scholarship on behalf of his allegedly "oppressed" status! --This is the most galling part: The wealthy descendants of the white oppressors [who have never been targets of racial discrimination in America] being given money on the false notion that they somehow have some imaginary kinship with underprivileged Indians. That's like caring about the Holocaust and giving scholarships to "people who suffered in Germany," and finding out that none of the money went to Jews--and 99% of it went to ethnic Germans. Oh, that poor blue-eyed son of a Cuban surgeon! Good thing he got that scholarship. Otherwise I'm sure he would've been selling chicklets on the side of a highway. You know: All those blue-eyed, fair-skinned people selling chicklets. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 17, 2005 9:06:04 GMT -5
Many americans have european heritge butAmerica is not european.
if you are going to use that mind set then america is not european because it has nothing in commen with many european counties but only one and thats England.
How about Mexico? could i not say that Mexico is like Spain? infact there is more cultural connections between Spain and Mexico then there is America to England.
so no we are not european But many of us have european ancestry.
its on the decline and it was needed at one time.it seems people who piss and moan about Affrimative Action forget that up in till the 60's even early 70's many Americans could not even Vote based on something such as skin color (now isnt that more of an outrage?)
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 17, 2005 9:07:42 GMT -5
Speaking of discrimination and "white guilt," yeah it's true: When I think of historically oppressed people I usually think of those poor white Spaniards who took over half the globe, killed millions of Indians and introduced negro slaves to the New World. How those poor white Spaniards suffered! They're not like those bad Nazi Germans. Remember when Nazi Germany spread their empire all over the Earth--- Oops. Oh, wait, they didn't! Remember how those Nazis used negro slaves and--- Oops. Sorry. They didn't do that, either. Or those Nazis! --With their indefatigable racism and brutality, how they spread the German language to the four corners of the world and--- Oh, darn! --That's not true either. So . . .um . . . you mean Spain was far more destructive in world history than the Nazis? --Wow! Poor Spaniards. So . . . um . . . non-white . . . so . . . er . . . oppressed. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha what the heck are you talking?
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 17, 2005 9:27:43 GMT -5
Lurker4Now, My post was a sarcastic response to the concept of "Spaniards being an oppressed group". They are one of history's biggest oppressors. It was a Spanish monk in Mexico named Bartolomeo Las Casas who first suggested that the empire stop running the shrimpy Indians into the ground; that black Africans were far taller and stronger, and maybe THEY should be imported. So black slavery in the New World--seen as the ultimate white evil--was first carried out by Spaniards. The English adopted the custom from Spain--not the other way around. So it's hilarious that some people are trying to indulge in historical revisionism by linking "Hispanic" with "oppressed". They're the ultimate oppressors. And as I said the misplaced attempts to help the victims of Spanish colonialism [Indians and blacks] usually backfires. Blacks and Indians usually don't finish high school. [Look up the statistics.] It's depressing. So where do all those college scholarships for "Hispanics" go? --To those who have no trouble assimilating at all--the white people of Spanish extraction. They statistically finish high school, vote Republican, meld into mainstream society. So those scholarships are MEANT for poverty-stricken mestizos and blacks. But they end up going to whites like millionaire playboys Eric and Lyle Menendez. Didn't you hear that surname: Menendez? --Oh, those poor "Hispanics" suffering in that mansion. Or Cuban-American Desi Arnaz. Poor Desi! --His father was a mayor back in Cuba, and then the family fled and had to live in America under the oppression of mansions and large bank-accounts--just like they did in Cuba. I hope Desi's kids got "scholarships" to help them shuffle off the manacles of oppression. Or Academy-award-winning Puerto Rican actor Jose Ferrer! Poor oppressed Ferrer! He attended Princeton university at the age of 15 and hobnobbed with all those white Americans. Didn't anyone tell them that Jose wasn't "white"? --I guess they must have been fooled by the fact that he had white skin, purely European dna and had wealthy parents. Oh, how he must have suffered! See my point? --The whole "Hispanic" business only helps the white ones. The poorest Indians and blacks don't assimilate and aren't generally in a position to take advantage of any of the scholarships or tax-breaks set up to combat hypothetical "oppression". I recently read the story of a Jewish millionaire who received a massive tax-break by claiming Hispanic heritage due to the fact that his family was in Spain in the 1400s. So now--according to the tax man--he's a Hispanic. Voila! --It's just that easy.
Meanwhile all the poor Indians and blacks [who really ARE oppressed] are selling chicklets on the side of the road. THAT'S what should piss you off: The people who never WERE oppressed [but were in fact descendants of the oppressors] benefitting by everyone pretending that "Hispanic" ipso facto means "oppressed". It's--as I said earlier--like watching Germans get scholarships meant for Jews and pretending to have been the oppressed ones. "Er . . . uh . . . but we all lived in Germany, right? --It's the same thing!" Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 17, 2005 9:41:36 GMT -5
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Post by eufrenio on Jun 17, 2005 9:44:02 GMT -5
Drooperdoo, I find your German/ Spanish analogy a bit stretched.... Spain was an Empire, and as such no more evil than the British or the French Empires. Please do not add to the Black Legend loom....
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 17, 2005 9:47:53 GMT -5
Spain was the only country which questioned themselfs morally on conqusts. not even rome did such a thing!
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