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Post by slick on Jun 10, 2005 0:00:29 GMT -5
Why is there a Latino race in the United States? Why are they classified differently from blacks and whites? Why aren't people from French Speaking West Africa, Portuguese speaking Brazil and Angola, and Chinese speakers from Taiwan and China classified according to their own racial and cultural classifications? There is no Black, of French speaking origin, or Asian, of Chinese or Japanese speaking origin. I have seen, however, no category for Asian or Amerindian, of Spanish speaking origin, however. Such would be the case for most Mexicans, Hondurans, and Phillipinos. Yet there is Black or White, of Spanish speaking origin. Those from Senegal (French speaking) are classified as black, Taiwan (Chinese) as Asian, and Angola (Portuguese) are also black. Latinos are no different racially from the rest of the country. They are either black (Sammy Sosa), white (Christina Saralegui), Indian or part Indian (George Lopez), Asian, or a mixture of black, white, Indian, or Asian. How come Salma Hayek and Ricky Martin classify themselves as just white, not white of Hispanic origin? How come Bobby Bonilla and Zoe Saldana classify themselves as just black, not black of Hispanic origin? Despite the one drop rule, I am surprised however that people aren't getting upset that Dominicans, Cubans, and Puerto Ricans of African ancestry don't usually consider themselves black. I was wondering if the political agenda was to de-whiten those of Spanish origin since many North Europeans don't believe that Spaniards and Italians are as white as they are. Or is it political correctness?
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Post by murphee on Jun 10, 2005 0:03:05 GMT -5
Maybe it has something to do with the size of the population, the language, and the cultural influence.
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Post by mike2 on Jun 10, 2005 0:06:36 GMT -5
Most of the so-called Hispanics are mixed-race. They'd rather identify as something with a more Latin and professional sound to it, even if they're far from being Spaniards. That's the trouble. I could care less if you wanted your race or people to have a separate name other than mestizo. But I don't like it when they choose something that aids in confusion.
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Post by vela on Jun 10, 2005 8:22:45 GMT -5
I think is a cultural rather than a racial distinction that people make. For artists it is a matter of convenience: if they want to sell their records or movies to the "latino" market then they are latinos; If they want to reach a wider audience then they are white. You get the idea!
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Post by Wadaad on Jun 10, 2005 8:30:55 GMT -5
I think is a cultural rather than a racial distinction that people make. For artists it is a matter of convenience: if they want to sell their records or movies to the "latino" market then they are latinos; If they want to reach a wider audience then they are white. You get the idea! At least they have options then, which is never a bad thing
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Post by vela on Jun 10, 2005 9:34:37 GMT -5
I think is a cultural rather than a racial distinction that people make. For artists it is a matter of convenience: if they want to sell their records or movies to the "latino" market then they are latinos; If they want to reach a wider audience then they are white. You get the idea! At least they have options then, which is never a bad thing The option every human being has is to trascend a limiting self-impossed (or externally imposed) racial definition and develop his/her own full potential and talents! Not to do so is a sad, sad thing.
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Post by NuSapiens on Jun 10, 2005 11:17:04 GMT -5
The option every human being has is to trascend a limiting self-impossed (or externally imposed) racial definition and develop his/her own full potential and talents! Not to do so is a sad, sad thing. This is true, but IMO only really for a few people: basically, "nerdy" types who probably need to seek out their own amongst all races for real companionship. For most people, they need daily group belonging exercises in the form of a culture/community. The problem with the USA is that everyone is expected to sell out to an Anglo-Saxon cultural norm. Retaining a cultural community is a way to fight this and still succeed economically. I wouldn't be surprised if Mexicans and Central Americans controlled what's now the SW USA in a hundred years or so. They feel this too: that they are a rising star, or a "race" in formation.
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Post by vela on Jun 10, 2005 12:49:01 GMT -5
... ... I wouldn't be surprised if Mexicans and Central Americans controlled what's now the SW USA in a hundred years or so. They feel this too: that they are a rising star, or a "race" in formation. Maybe you're right but who knows if it'll be for better or worse? It could very well turn out to be a a real Frankenstein-like phenomenon alienated to its ethnic roots as much as to the traditional American frame of mind.
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 10, 2005 13:58:16 GMT -5
It annoys me to no end to look at certain websites which list celebrities and it'll have a "race" category and say, for instance: Name: Martin Sheen. Race: Hispanic. (I wouldn't mind if say other celebrities were listed by their own sub-races--like say, "Anglo-Saxon," "Celtic," "Slavic". Nope. No one else. Everyone else is "white" and Martin Sheen is "Hispanic," as if that's a race.) Martin Sheen [born Ramon Estevez] is purely European. Why has he been stripped of his "white" status? I can understand our politeness in not flinging terms like "mestizo" or "half-caste" at Amerindian populations, but it infuriates me to see morons turning on the Europeans and listing, say, Pablo Picasso's race and not listing it as "white". My God! He's a European who never set foot in the Western Hemisphere! --Why strip him of his European status. It's obnoxious--pretending that blond-haired, blue-eyed Emilio Estevez isn't "white," or that actress Cameron Diaz isn't "Caucasian". I mean, do they do this to any other group? Haitians speak French. So when a white Frenchman is mentioned do they strip HIM of his Caucasian status and pretend he's somehow part of some massive super-race of African colonies and Caribbean sub-Saharans? This crap has gone beyond ridiculous. It gets really bizarre when Nordic Spanish types [like the aformentioned Emilio Estevez] aren't "white," but then they'll have a Jewish guy with olive skin, an Asiatic profile, kinky hair and whose ancestors are from the Middle East and he's listed as "white," but the European is magically now NOT white. --This is insane. Spain has Europe's oldest population. You can't get more aboriginally European than the Basques. So it's odd that the European whose family has been in Europe since 300,000 BC is somehow not "European" now and the guy who's a "Middle Easterner" is now magically "white". I was startled when the movie "Spanglish" came out and they cast a glamorous Spanish actress as a Mexican maid and Adam Sandler was her boss. In the narrative, they explained that it was so strange for her to be around "Caucasian society". I was like, "What? " --The Western European woman is going to be instructed on Caucasian society by a guy whose ancestors are from the Middle East? P.S.--Don't get me wrong: Arabs, Jews, Armenians--all these are non-European Caucasian groups. But let's not get obnoxious and cast Arab-American Kasey Kasem as the "white guy" and cast an Englishman as the "darky" who must be instructed in the ways of European society.
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Post by hanan on Jun 10, 2005 14:45:24 GMT -5
Drooperdoo, I've noticed that you have some irritation that Jewish people have a high status and Spanish people are grouped with Mexicans which don't have a high status. Yeah, I guess I could see why that would p-ss a person off. Would you be happy if people gave Spaniards high status, but treated Mexican mestizos like servants? It sounds as if you would. Do people think you are mestizo and this bothers you?
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 10, 2005 14:55:09 GMT -5
Hanan, Not at all. If you'll re-read my post, you'll see that I wrote that it was understandable that Americans took to referring to Amerindic countries that adopted Spanish as "Hispanic," because "mestizo" and "half-caste" were abhorrent terms. I'm not for stepping on anyone. I just wish we called Mexicans "Mexicans," or Hondurans "Hondurans". Why try to lump them all into one imaginary super-group. There's more of a vast genetic difference between a Mexican and a Peruvian than between a Scotsman and a Portuguese--yet we act like they're the same. They're not. So let's drop the phoniness. Call Mexicans "Mexicans". I'm sure they'll appreciate it. As to Jews, Arabs, Gypsies--and other non-European groups being white. I have no problem with that, either. I consider them Caucasian myself. [Only a semi-literate bigot would assert otherwise.] But--that being said--as recently as the mid-20th Century, these groups were murdered in Europe precisely for NOT being considered "white". It makes sense for them, subsequently, to fight to model their image . . . to spend billions in public relations to "Europeanize" their image. I understand all that. It's only human nature. It just gets annoying to watch Adam Sandler--who's darker than the Spanish actress--play the "white guy" to the Western European. During WWII, he would have been killed as "non-white," but she wouldn't have. [You know that's the truth. It's ugly, but it's nevertheless true. Perhaps it's uglier for BEING true.] And that's the only reason I'm annoyed by it. The script to "Spanglish" clearly called for an Indian--a Mexican maid. If they had not tried to glamorize the part by placing a stunning Western European woman in the role, it wouldn't have annoyed me. Did they think we wouldn't have rooted for the relationship if it had been between Sandler and a REAL Mexican? --That's the racism.
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Post by cybers on Jun 10, 2005 16:07:28 GMT -5
It annoys me to no end to look at certain websites which list celebrities and it'll have a "race" category and say, for instance: Name: Martin Sheen. Race: Hispanic. (I wouldn't mind if say other celebrities were listed by their own sub-races--like say, "Anglo-Saxon," "Celtic," "Slavic". Nope. No one else. Everyone else is "white" and Martin Sheen is "Hispanic," as if that's a race.) Martin Sheen [born Ramon Estevez] is purely European. Why has he been stripped of his "white" status? I can understand our politeness in not flinging terms like "mestizo" or "half-caste" at Amerindian populations, but it infuriates me to see morons turning on the Europeans and listing, say, Pablo Picasso's race and not listing it as "white". My God! He's a European who never set foot in the Western Hemisphere! --Why strip him of his European status. It's obnoxious--pretending that blond-haired, blue-eyed Emilio Estevez isn't "white," or that actress Cameron Diaz isn't "Caucasian". I mean, do they do this to any other group? Haitians speak French. So when a white Frenchman is mentioned do they strip HIM of his Caucasian status and pretend he's somehow part of some massive super-race of African colonies and Caribbean sub-Saharans? This crap has gone beyond ridiculous. It gets really bizarre when Nordic Spanish types [like the aformentioned Emilio Estevez] aren't "white," but then they'll have a Jewish guy with olive skin, an Asiatic profile, kinky hair and whose ancestors are from the Middle East and he's listed as "white," but the European is magically now NOT white. --This is insane. Spain has Europe's oldest population. They were there hundreds of thousands of years before the later Indo-European groups. You can't get more aboriginally European than the Basques. So it's odd that the European whose family has been in Europe since 300,000 BC is somehow not "European" now and the guy who's a "Middle Easterner" is now magically "white". I was frothing at the mouth when the movie "Spanglish" came out and they cast a glamorous Spanish actress as a Mexican maid and Adam Sandler was her boss. In the narrative, they explained that it was so strange for her to be around "Caucasian society". I was like, "What? " --The Western European woman is going to be instructed on Caucasian society by a guy whose family is from the Middle East? This is insane. P.S.--Don't get me wrong: Arabs, Jews, Armenians--all these are non-European Caucasian groups. But let's not get obnoxious and cast Arab-American Kasey Kasem as the "white guy" and cast an Englishman as the "darky" who must be instructed in the ways of European society. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Emilio Estevez is like 3/4 Northern European. Not a Spaniard at all. I find that annoying, when people call someone Italian or Spanish just because they a have a small amout of that ancestry. Btw, it's not crazy at all for a Jew to have a European servant. ps Spaniards and especially Portuguese have a fair amount of Sephardic ancestry.
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Post by cybers on Jun 10, 2005 16:16:43 GMT -5
Cybers, All Americans are different things. But correct me if I'm wrong: Emilio Estevez looks just like his dad, Martin Sheen [born Ramon Estevez]. And the Estevez's come from the Galicia region of Spain. Emilio himself describes himself as a "Gallego". Look at Martin Sheen's brother Joe Estevez: He looks exactly like both Martin and Emilio Estevez. So, sorry: Emilio Estevez didn't get his looks from some other country. The Estevez genes are very strong. I mean, my God: Charlie Sheen, Emilio Estevez, Joe Estevez--- They all look like clones. [It's astonishing how strong those short Estevez genes are.] P.S.--Roman descriptions of Gallegos are "short, stocky and ruddy-complected". --Now go back and take a look at the Estevez brood. Not a single one of them seems to reach above 5'7''. Martin Sheen is half Spanish, half Irish. EVERYONE knows this (have you never seen his ads promoting Irish tourism?). And I assume his wife Janet is Anglo-American, making their son 3/4 northern European and only 1/4 Spanish. Obviously, the Irish genes predominate in both father and son.
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Post by cybers on Jun 10, 2005 17:32:20 GMT -5
Cybers, Martin Sheen has blue eyes. Martin Sheen's wife has brown eyes. Emilio got his father's blue eyes, and Charlie got his mother's brown eyes. That's the problem with your theory--that Emilio was fair because of his non-Spanish mother. In fact, he got the blue eyes from Ramon Estevez [aka Martin Sheen]. I know, he looks almost exactly like his dad. But where do you think Martin Sheen got HIS looks from? Ireland, where over 70% of people are fair and blue eyed, or Galicia, where according to race maps dark eyes are much more numerous than light ones and brunet skin prevails over pink? You're a smart fellow, I'll let you figure it out. And as for Martin Sheen's own ancestry--- I know most Americans aren't educated as to the regional differences within distant European countries: But the Galicia region of Spain is called the "Celtic region of Spain". The very term "Galicia" is from "Gaul". Gallegos look typically like Martin Sheen: Even the Romans--as I wrote earlier--described them as short, stocky and ruddy-complected . . . which is exactly what the Estevez's look like.
Couldn't give a rat's ass, to be honest. So, no, Martin Sheen's dad wasn't some olive-skinned Arab and his mom some northern EuropeanYou're right, his father wasn't an Arab, but his mother was most certainly an Irishwoman. Genetically, the Irish don't even cluster with Northern Europeans. I know you're probably not aware of that. They cluster with Spaniards and Portuguese. In fact, according to geneticists in both Wales and Ireland [at Trinity College] say that the original Irish population arrived in Ireland from Spain. [They have Basque Y-chromosomes.] So Martin Sheen's mother and father would have both had very similar dna. Sorry to burst your bubble. P.S.--Here's a link to an article on the genetics. msnbc.msn.com/id/5955701
Sorry to burst yours, but this genetic affinity simply indicates a common heritage derived from pre-indo Europeans (aka paleolithics). The Irish do not have basque genes, as I believe Faelcind already told you. Learn from your mistakes and move on. ps Spaniards have Berber, Jewish and African genes. The Irish do not. Look it up.
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 11, 2005 0:38:58 GMT -5
Cybers, I gave you a link to geneticists at some of the world's most esteemed universities. It is THEY--and not I--who say that the Irish have Basque Y-chromosomes. So if you're going to quibble, quibble with them. Write to Msnbc's science editor--and tell him you know better. You cited Faelcind as your source. I cited Trinity College, Dublin and Steven Jones, a geneticist from Wales. I think my sources trump Faelcind. But perhaps I'm wrong. It could be. Why trust geneticists at universities. Get your info from a guy posting on an internet website. You wrote that I should "learn from my mistakes and move on". Good enough! --I'll stop posting links to recognized authorities and base my opinions on Faelcind. Then I can be smart like you.
P.S.--As to your assertion that the Irish don't have Basque Y-chromosomes . . . I didn't "make that up," either. I refer you to geneticists Goldstein and Wilson of University College London, who first characterized it that way. Oops! There I go again, actually citing real scientists. Sorry. ("Repeat again after me: It's only true if Faelcind says so. It's only true if Faelcind says so, it's only true if----")
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