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Post by Igu on May 14, 2005 13:12:00 GMT -5
Mostly geography (africa is across the atlantic from america) the economics of slavery, the political ambitions of europe (and the neccessity of dehumanising others to justify harsh treatment and exploitation) Oddly enough, europeans are a rather recent subset of africans (http://www.chip.org/board/read.cgi?bid=1&aid=43&p=3 ) 50,000- 35,000 years ago the two groups are'nt all that distant, african groups are probably more distant from each other There are some REALLY coarse/curly haired europeans (like some swedes and danes) and curly/wavy haired africans, (in west africa it is the fulani) But the trends are reverse of that africans tend to be curly-haired, europeans straight haired while asians have the straightest hair of all on average. But khoisan and some pygmies have even nappier/coarser hair than other africans. In terms of accomplishment "civilizations" really it's just the lack of information on sub-saharan africa of all things. LOl for instance, up untill the 1900's colonialism era only four europeans visited timbuktu, the city of fables for so long, but none made it out alive. There might have been accomplishments there people have no living idea of, likewise africa is still the "dark continent" archeologically and historically. Though some of the better known civilizations such as aksum or nubia were at times on par with any accomplishments anywhere else and carved out relatively short lived empires. There was no shortage of accomplishment in west africa to say the least at all. To quote the recent washington post article on west african slaves: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45889-2005Feb23.htmlA city in central-west africa (loango) the fact is, black africans were no less impressive than anyone else, and at different points in history such societies excelled, unfortunatly, there was little continuity and diffusion from more advanced cultures on the continent was slow, almost non-existent. There is still much to be discovered in sub-saharan africa, but lingering racsist attitudes still dwell on in the minds of mainstream scholarship. Please, stop begging for affirmative action in History, it's so humiliating.
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Post by Minstrel on May 14, 2005 13:29:25 GMT -5
Umm that is not only historically incorrect, but business wise and geographically it would'nt really make sense. Not only were some slaves taken the east africa by europeans(modern day mozambique) there was an arab slave trade taking place probably on an even larger and longer scale than europe ever instituted.
And for the last time west africans were not "uncivilized" west africa was one of the worlds greatest learning centers for crying out loud.
And stop ceaselessly boasting about egypt, it was a nice civ, but frankly, not only does it not exist anymore in any way shape or form (except as a tourist industry) I'm tired of hearing about it, the subject on all levels has been done to death. put it away for god's sake.
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Post by alexandrian on May 14, 2005 13:32:54 GMT -5
Umm that is not only historically incorrect, but business wise and geographically it would'nt really make sense. Not only were some slaves taken the east africa by europeans(modern day mozambique) there was an arab slave trade taking place probably on an even larger and longer scale than europe ever instituted. And for the last time west africans were not "uncivilized" west africa was one of the worlds greatest learning centers for crying out loud. And stop ceaselessly boasting about egypt, it was a nice civ, but frankly, not only does it not exist anymore in any way shape or form (except as a tourist industry) I'm tired of hearing about it, the subject on all levels has been done to death. put it away for god's sake. When I say East Africans, I mean Aethopids in the HOrn of Africa. They weren't enslaved. Oh come on, you know full well West Africa was not one of the world's greatest learning centers. Let's look at the learning centers of the ancient world: Athens and Alexandria. Neither are West African. HOw about Medieval times: Cordoba, Baghdad, al-Fustat (cairo), Constantinople, and Damascus REnaissance: Florence, Rome, Paris Colonial times: anywhere in England Modern times: East coast of America and Britain No West Africa anywhere. You can cite their accomplishments but to say they were one of the greatest learning centers of the world is the biggest overstatement ever.
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Post by Minstrel on May 14, 2005 13:33:23 GMT -5
Not "affirmative action" yoda, just the truth, just an equal representaion of all of human history, not just eurasia. And "humiliating" how so? Especially to you? Anyways unlike you I respect the history of other groups, and I care to learn more about them.
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Post by Igu on May 14, 2005 13:38:58 GMT -5
Not "affirmative action" yoda, just the truth, just an equal representaion of all of human history, not just eurasia. And "humiliating" how so? Especially to you? Anyways unlike you I respect the history of other groups, and I care to learn more about them. You are whining and it's irritating; You want a history based on race, not on achievments, you just think like the people who enslaved and exploited you. You are race obsessed.
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Post by Minstrel on May 14, 2005 13:51:38 GMT -5
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Post by Minstrel on May 14, 2005 14:00:32 GMT -5
Me? Oh non-"race obsessed" one why are you speaking as if "I" am a slave? "enslaved and exploited" me no, my ancestors, yes. Because of "those peoples" attitudes and transgresions, because of what they "thought", an aspect of human history is suppressed and downplayed, and continues to this day. History is valuble to all of all races, in fact I am currently studying indian history. i am not out start a "race based" historicall paradigm, I am out to set the record straght and dispell myths. I am no more "race obsessed" than you are, even more less so actually, I'm tired or racism and all of its ugly manefestations.
Lol you can't "whine" on a keyboard, yoda.
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Post by alexandrian on May 14, 2005 14:06:28 GMT -5
All they did was find manuscripts. They find manuscripts everywhere. If you think Timbuktu rivaled Alexandria, Athens, Cairo, Baghdad, Cordoba, or Damascus in all their primes, you're living in a fantasy land. Furthermore, this is just one location and it's not like it was a learning magnet for international scholars like the other areas were. Please give me a single significant discovery that came out of Timbuktu.
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Post by Igu on May 14, 2005 14:13:32 GMT -5
It's a bit exagerated, but as I said earlier, it just prooves that negroids are not subhumans.
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Post by alexandrian on May 14, 2005 14:14:00 GMT -5
Mesoamerican civilization was on par with Egypt. Sorry. Not everyone has the same view as you. Doesn't mean I'm feeling inferior and jealous of Egypt and the pyramids. A. That's not true, it wasn't nearly as sophisticated with little cultural diffusion and little writing left over. B. Time frame shows us that Mesoamerica arose thousands of years after the Great Pyramids were built. It took them thousands of years, in which they didn't progress, to even come close to the pyramids. While we were performing brain surgeries and building pyramids, they were chasing jaguars and eating each other. A 10th century civilization comparable to a civlization of 2500 BC really shows how completely unadvanced that 10th century civilization was. During the time of the Aztecs, Cairo was one of the largest cities of the world and the Middle East (Cairo included) was home to algebra, geometry, literature, calligraphy, renowned architecture, and many anatomical and medical advancements, all of these are achievements far surpassing the primitive-ness of the Mesoamericans in the same time period.
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Post by Igu on May 14, 2005 14:17:33 GMT -5
A. That's not true, it wasn't nearly as sophisticated with little cultural diffusion and little writing left over. B. Time frame shows us that Mesoamerica arose thousands of years after the Great Pyramids were built. It took them thousands of years, in which they didn't progress, to even come close to the pyramids. While we were performing brain surgeries and building pyramids, they were chasing jaguars and eating each other. A 10th century civilization comparable to a civlization of 2500 BC really shows how completely unadvanced that 10th century civilization was. During the time of the Aztecs, Cairo was one of the largest cities of the world and the Middle East (Cairo included) was home to algebra, geometry, literature, calligraphy, renowned architecture, and many anatomical and medical advancements, all of these are achievements far surpassing the primitive-ness of the Mesoamericans in the same time period. A liberalist would have said: don't be racist Alex!
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Post by Wadaad on May 14, 2005 14:34:02 GMT -5
I dont think negroids are treated differently. I think some negroes got enslaved, just as some whites got enslaved...just the fact that the African slave trade was the last *major* boon where human exploitation was carried on on a large scale, and the most recent in our minds has given people stupid assumptions. Igu, there were civil blacks, thus blacks had civilizations, simple as that I aint buying any of your crazy leftie bashings...I believe that civilization is due to many factors, probably infinite factors, I will not leave out race as one factor, but then again I see retarded blacks and retarded whiteys occuring about on an equal basis so I know that its not something in their DNA that has made their civilizations to be more "sophisticated" if you may...If you guys really think negros were/are being treated differently basedits all based on race and race alone, why dont you guys sit down, make a list of all the world's civilizations from the beginning of time, give each a rank and place a figure to how close those people are to you racially...if your results come out positive and you are linked to the most spectacular, awesome civilizations cool, if not just go kill yourselves you'll be doing humanity a great favour since you will rid the world of your inferior genes
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Post by Minstrel on May 14, 2005 14:34:38 GMT -5
Alexandrian is a walking hub of total mis-information, especially if it contradicts his egypto-centric paradigm. Egypt got beat up by almost everybody (litterally) tell that to him, that means 1) their military sucked ass or 2) they were complacent with foreign rule.
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Post by vela on May 14, 2005 14:42:04 GMT -5
A. That's not true, it wasn't nearly as sophisticated with little cultural diffusion and little writing left over. B. Time frame shows us that Mesoamerica arose thousands of years after the Great Pyramids were built. It took them thousands of years, in which they didn't progress, to even come close to the pyramids. While we were performing brain surgeries and building pyramids, they were chasing jaguars and eating each other. A 10th century civilization comparable to a civlization of 2500 BC really shows how completely unadvanced that 10th century civilization was. During the time of the Aztecs, Cairo was one of the largest cities of the world and the Middle East (Cairo included) was home to algebra, geometry, literature, calligraphy, renowned architecture, and many anatomical and medical advancements, all of these are achievements far surpassing the primitive-ness of the Mesoamericans in the same time period. There's a big omission in your thinking, Alexandrian. To start with, the peopling of the New World is a relatively recent event when compared to the peopling of the Nile. How can you expect a people to develop while it had been migrating for thousands and thousands of years and barely surviving? Just take a look at a map. Can you really fathom what it represents to walk all the way from Asia to America? Compared to that, having nowhere else to go and already settled in the fertile Nile valley of Egypt all energy and efforts of ancient Egyptians could be directed to build your cities and pursue knowledge. It wasn’t until the Amerindians finally settled down in Mesoamerica that they started to build their civilization. And we can only guess how much knowledge they were able to accumulate because practically every written document was destroyed during the European colonization. When comparing the evolution or develpment of different world cultures you have to consider the handicap of those peoples that got on the path to development early on. From this perspective all peoples of the world might have been able to accomplish the same feats and develop their full potential given the same conditions and time to mature. Unfortunately, what has happened is that those who developed first in many cases have hampered the evolution and exploited those who were on an earlier stage of development. The classic bullies stealing the candy from the child!
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Post by alexandrian on May 14, 2005 14:51:04 GMT -5
Alexandrian is a walking hub of total mis-information, especially if it contradicts his egypto-centric paradigm. Egypt got beat up by almost everybody (litterally) tell that to him, that means 1) their military sucked ass or 2) they were complacent with foreign rule. Okay, okay, but while your people were playing with monkeys. My people were trading history with the Greeks, conquering the Nubians and Palestine, performing brain surgeries, treating broken bones, and developed the first 365-day calendar.
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