Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 16, 2005 20:26:44 GMT -5
Sage advice hallam. Hopefully Bioman will heed it if he wants to consider himself a credible debater. Bioman, you are putting on a facade of scientific indominitability, as if your theories, are "proven" and they are not. But I'll play your game. So let us deal with a few things: Blacks and testosterone, from your own source (the othe other source proves nothing) cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/10/1041The differences diminish dramitically with age. They become in effect, statistically irrelevant. If genes are suspect here, why is it that old black mens testosterone levels are roughly equal with whites? Even so, what is the correlation with testoterone and intelligence if any? Does that make all men dumb? For your "bell curve" bullshit: Upstream: Issues: Bell Curve: Thomas Sowell : Vol. 28, American Spectator, 02-01-1995, pp 32 here's another link that might shed some light as well: www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20021001.shtmlAnother thing, according to the bell curve, africans are basically retarded. It seems quite hard for me to believe that 700 million+ people and the diaspora in the americas are bordering on retarded. Yeah, musical, dancing, athletic retards according to Bioman. and my coup de' grace: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3517171.stmSTFU Becaue your points are'nt worth countering, it is psuedo-scientific garbage. You are telling me that an entire racial group of people is dumb, but can dance and sing, and jump over shit really well? Wow, you just made my f%@ing week, Bioman. By all means keep it coming, it's entertaining to say the least. Japan has a pseudo-socialist economic policy and a GDP of some $36,000, and even so, Norway, Sweden, finland and other scandanian states have virtually no homelessness or poverty. Ghana is a developing country with a GDP of about $2,000. STFU. Asians are egalitarian huh? Try living in "egalitarian" pre-industrial china where people starved and begged on the streets amid a bloated beaurocracy and merchant class. Or better yet, maybe your chinese or korean, I suppose the "egalitarian" Japanese would accept you with open arms. A country where immigrants have no rights, other asians groups are considered lesser beings, inundated, underfunded public schools and university's, and a feeble social welfare system. Racial egalitarians huh? Trying to make me feel like a tree-hugging hippy or something? Why do you espouse egalitarianism while simoultaneously showing contempt for it? Well is'nt that the pot calling the kettle black no? I provided links expalining human diversity. No response. I provided links saying british black women do better than british white males. Still no response. I showed you statistics showing Ghana has dramitically lower crime rate than Japan. You made excuses for it and made no further note or mention of it. Not only are you ignoring direct evidence and counter-links, you are rationalizing them with feeble arguments. Bioman, you are a contemptual debater yourself. Furthermore,I'm sure you notice no one is in agreement with your points. Why are you the only one who is taking those studies seriously where everyone else has nothing but counter-arguments. Perhaps you would have better support from your peers and like-minds at stormfront no? I don't respond to much of your garbage because I have a life, I would rather spend my day doing more productive things than answering at your every whim. You are just one bigot with a computer, you won't have any effect anyway. I waste my time. -Ayn Rand
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Post by coelos on Feb 16, 2005 23:37:58 GMT -5
I agree with some of your points, but some of your black-white comparisons are a bit misleading. For one thing, black African immigrants to Britain, like those from China or India, tend to be highly educated even before they get to the UK, or else come to the country specifically for educational purposes. So these recent immigrant groups would hardly be representative of their populations as a whole, in terms of educational aptitude. Do a google search on African "brain drain" to see what I mean. And your BBC article only applied to British blacks from Africa - and not Caribbean blacks, who remain among the poorest achieving groups in the UK. Also, you neglect that white British males still do better than African British males, and white females do better than African females. If you compare likes with likes, Africans in the UK rank below whites. The same holds true in most if not all countries where blacks and whites coexist. Selectively culling your data to show an exception here and there does not overturn the general rule. What you've been doing in much of this thread is to compare the best of Africa with the average or worst of Europe or Asia, in order to obtain favorable comparisons (Botswana vs. Vietnam, for example). In doing so, you have succeeded in showing that there are other factors besides race that can determine economic and educational success. But you're not disproving that race is indeed a factor behind the mostly consistent performance gaps that exist around the world. I don't think the opposite case (that race is a significant factor) can be easily proven either; so many confounding factors make the situation difficult to analyse.
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 17, 2005 0:18:21 GMT -5
Yeah I noticed that too. Also, the funny thing is, which he probably misses, is that the very conditions that allowed for humans to grow their big brains in the first place arose in Africa. In precisely the climes he says leads to lesser intelligence.
Yeah, they are the same group racially speaking, but one performs less than the other. Thats tells you it has nothing to do with race at all. However I think even carribeans do better than bangledeshi's.
Actually the data is almost identical. black females consistently outperform black males on average in hte U.S. as well as in eligible parts of africa who submit their data.
Hmmm, interestingly enough, I am open maybe to the possibility of black females on the average being more intelligent to black males, though I have no idea why, they have the same ancestors/upbringings. One study found black females to be 5 times more likely than black males to have an IQ of over 140. Interesting.........I must find more data, I have'nt come to any conclusions, and I still stand by my conventions. Maybe gender is a factor in intelligence? I don't know.....
Vietnam is hardly the worst of asia, it's richer than cambodia, laos and the phillipines I believe.
I agree, that it is why it is fallacious to conclude so soon that race is responsible for IQ gaps and other discrepancies. I mean, I know tons of smart blacks, most of them males, maybe it's just my area? i don't know.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 17, 2005 13:05:05 GMT -5
BTW Kame I forgot to thank you for the Mod Recomendation, high praise.
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Post by BioMan on Feb 18, 2005 6:07:19 GMT -5
Faelcinid: Tell me, why is it that your info all comes from the same site? Tell me what books those sources have been published in. Another thing I want to know is, what score did both groups get? Did they both score 100 or 85 or what? They don’t tell, in fact im very suspicious. They don’t provide any strong data and just And any site that claims that the concept of race is obviously run by a group of biased egalitarians. The concept of race does exist and it can be proven by several factors. Heres how ridiculous your sources are Ok so according to him theres no genetical influence in the IQ gap and that its clearly environmental. So wheres his proof? What studies have he done? All he is doing is talking and that’s about it. Another thing he forgot to point out is that amongst developing children black brains develop the least as time goes on. They also mature the fastest. He also hid the fact that amongst older children in the test the gap grew as time went by to 7, 12, 12 www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2602/is_0003/ai_2602000332And you cant blame it on culture either since if anything the whites are more likely to be discriminated against. Furthermore the test does not focus on things like verbal and I honestly don’t know why test givers think verbal is “biased”towards other races. Those white and black children still go to the same school and speak the same language. *sigh* do I have to do everything for you?, ok do you know how humans came about? Humans and modern primates are descendents of a similar primate ancestor. Due to evolution both groups went different paths. With the emergence of modern humans about 200,000 years ago you get blacks. In fact the oldest modern human remains happen to be blacks from Ethiopia similar to modern blacks today. Blacks and whites branched off when early humans went to colder places like Europe. The oldest remains of whites first appeared about 100,000 years ago and they were very different from blacks found in Ethiopia. Africans today are not that different from Africans 200 thousand years ago. Whites and Asians though are very different from those ancient Ethiopians mainly in skin tone and brain size which I already gave evidence on skull size and brain power. More dangerous? Says who? The colder climates had things like wooly mammoths and 12 foot tall bears. It was cold so the only people who survived were the ones who could master tools and hunting patterns. A random strong dunce wouldn’t be able to survive. A group of intelligent hunters however will. Tropical climates are war so all you need to do is get some spears and that’s it. In colder climates though, you needed to build mammoth skin houses, sophisticated clothing to block the cold, Even motherly development differed. In warmer climates parents didn’t have to put in as much effort to raise a child. Not only that but they can also have more children since food was abundant. In colder climates though, mothers had to take care of their children from predators, the cold and other things. Look at how primitive African tribes today hunt then compare it to how ice age hunters hunt and you’ll see how much more difficult it was for the hunters who braved the arctic. Also the medditerean wasn’t as warm back then as it is today. Africa during the ice age was the warmest place to be. Modern Mediterranean people also happen to be caucasoids who moved to the middle east much later on. Hallam: I did and most people agree(excluding morons) that intelligence is affected by genes. Kame: that’s funny, cause ive been throwing you around all over the place in this debate. My scientific evidence comes from professor and published books. Your sources(actually you don’t provide scientific sources) are biased and does not even prove anything. Example: Comparing diamond rich Ghana to Communist Vietnam. Way to go.
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Post by BioMan on Feb 18, 2005 6:07:58 GMT -5
Does that still disapprove what I said about blacks averaging more testosterone? And I think it’s a little to obvious that testosterone diminishes with age. Oh yes, and look at the crime rates. Most black crimes are commited by young black males and not 60 year old black males. Way to go at twisting words.
And the bell curve never ever claims that blacks are retarded. In fact amongst the hundreds of pages in the bell curve only 1-2 pages deals with races. And they just use it to explain why Africas economy is crap compared to other economies. For example that chance of a person scoring 55 points above his IQ norm is very rare. Translated that means if a groups IQ average is 70 then amongst 700 million people only 70,000 will have an IQ 125 or higher. For a group with an IQ of 110 though 10-15% of them will have an IQ of 125 of greater. That explains why Vietnamese people for example do well in tests and are well represented in technology sectors as well as universities. Regardless of the fact that their homeland is in a communist crap hole. Compare that to African scientists who(which you claim Ghana being better than Vietnam) still seem to be lacking in Americas top technology fields.
You seriously need to look at things in a perspective.
Fact 1: In IQ tests men score roughly 5 points higher than women. The funny thing about that study is that in all other cases men usually had the higher chance of higher IQ and SATs. And you forgot one major thing.
Male brains and Female brains are different. Women still score higher than men in vocabulary even in SATs. They also excel in multitasking(cleaning, cooking and talking on the phone at the same time). Men excel in spatial, geometry and focusing on one thing alone at a time. This can be explained by how brains developed differently due to evolution. Men hunted so they needed a better understanding of the land as well as complete focus on hunting game. Women often stayed at home and took care of children, cook meat as well as socialize with other females rather than hunting.
I never took that British exam but I can tell you that its favored for women. While tests like IQ tests and SATs(men average higher even black men average more than black women) favor mens strength. Way to go at showing how biased you are. Oh yeah and you forgot one thing. Blacks in Britain also have affirmative action. They are awarded additional points.
And more importantly if black females were 5 time more likely than black males to have an IQ of 140 than the black womens IQ average should be over 10 points higher than mens(unless black females also have. But it isn’t. Unless you equally say that black women are 5 times more likely to have someone with an IQ of 30 than black males just to balanace the stats out. You know how ridiculous that test is? Also I believe theres something similar to Affirmative action in Britain.
Also I don’t trust that bbc source. Heres what they said-
If you level the playing field so that the tests calculate equal levels of strength in men and women then blacks wills till score the lowest. Oh yeah and African Pupils in England have more Caucasian blood in them than Caribbean blacks which explains the difference.
Also the African American mean IQ is 85. A African American to score 140(55 points higher than average) and above is really really rare. 1 in 10,000. Theres roughly 39 million African Americans in the US which translates to only 3900 blacks with Iqs at or over 140.
Never ever compare males to women in a women favored test. Black women did score alittle higher than white males, but then you forgot that the test not only favored women(as shown that women scored higher than males) but you also forgot that black males only scored 25 and 34. And you still fail to prove you point considering that Chinese for example score in the 70s male or not.
Translation: I cant make a decent argument because im a moron. I also have behavioral problems and since I cant argue decently im just going to call bioman a racist and claim my victory.
Also Finlands unemployment rate is 9% compared to Japans 5% which is similar to Swedens. Norways rate is 4.7%. One key factor you forgot though is that the larger your population is the harder it is to find jobs for everyone. Finland Sweden and Norway combined still has a smaller population than Japan.
And I didn’t mean egalitarianism lol I meant altruism. Asians are the most altruistic while im guessing blacks are the ones who desire egalitarianism the most due to the average blacks shortcomings(blaming it on racism rather than themselves). Even though immigrants also receive racism+ have little knowledge of English or American culture. Guess who outperforms who? And now the situation is the complete opposite. Asians(who btw are discriminated against even today) and Whites are given no advantages in jobs. Blacks however are given reverse racism such as test score bonuses, job priorities and other crap that measures based on race and not qualifications.
Yes I did read that link and I laughed at it. Why because the concept of race does exsist and some groups are just more intellectually favored then others. And still you ignore 95% of what I type anyways claiming that its pseudo science and BS. If its pseudo science then you should have an easy time counter it. Funny how my supposedly “pseudo science” is overwhelming your “legit science”. LOL.
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Post by BioMan on Feb 18, 2005 6:08:31 GMT -5
Anyways to further show how pathetic your arguments are let me point out the facts and let me also count how many of them you’ll ignore.
1. African Americans(have white blood in them) average an IQ of 85. 2. Pure blacks average an IQ of 70 . 3. Studies done by Paul Broca, Robert Bean, Vint, Raymond Pearl , Kenneth Ho's , Katherine Simmons , Kenneth Beals and Lynn all found that brain size, cranial capacity and neuron numbers + brain connections was smaller than the other races. They also found the trend that blacks with more white blood in them had bigger brains with more wiring. Another study shows that indeed half black and half white people do in fact score higher on IQ tests and SATs. 4. A simple reflex test can be used to measure the brains ability to process and think. The faster the reflex in this test and faster the brain can test. When the races were tested to find the average, blacks had the slowest time. When the test was complicated black and white differences grew even more. 5. US army helmet sizes clearly show that blacks average the smallest helmet size even though they average the tallest in height. 6. Claiming that physical differences in races can exist while mental differences do not is ridiculous. Namely because the brain is part of the physical body and no amount of studying will make your brain bigger. That’s no different than saying that if you teach a gorilla than it will be smarter than a human. 7. Average income in both US and Britain shows that blacks average the lowest income even though they are given the most advantages thanks to things like affirmative action. Yet the most disadvantaged group- Asians still average the highest income. Not only that but most of them are first generation immigrants with little to no knowledge of English or American/British culture. Tell me, exactly on how earth do you lose to people who have trouble speaking English+no knowledge of America if all races are the same. You can say Asians try hard, but you also should know that genes also play a role in how hard you try. Maybe not 100% but its still significant. 8. Genetics plays a surprisingly large part in your behavior(which explains Kame’s crappy attitude of constant STFU). 9. What are the examples of superbly built African civilizations? I saw the ruins of Zimbabwe, although its impressive its still a joke compared to what the other races built. And don’t include Egyptian Pyramids since there was a significant Caucasoid population guiding African slaves. Rames II for example was scanned using computers to find out what he looked like. He looked like a middle eastern/Caucasoid.Even the great Aztec and Incan ruins(lived in similar environments+ the native Americans showed up much later than blacks) had much more impressive feats of engineering and much more unity. 10. Racial bone density, testosterone level. 11. How on earth are those IQ tests biased? If they are biased then why do Asians score higher than whites? Its ridiculous how they claim that anything that makes blacks score really low is biased. For example a verbal section is to be removed in the Kaufman test. Why are they removing the verbal section even though the 2 sides speak the same language? Why is it biased to blacks. Tell me why IQ tests are biased towards blacks? I could understand if Whites are awarded extra points(in the case of affirmative action blacks are awarded extra points) but IQ tests don’t do that. 12. Even though blacks represent over 13% of Americas population they are vastly under-represented in top colleges. Even though they have affirmative action on their side. 13. The SAT gap between black and whites is over 200 points and even more for Asians. Yet colleges will choose a black over a white on this. 14. Studies show that blacks during pregnancy average the smallest cranial size and black women also average the smallest in hip ratio size. Studies also show that blacks hit puberty 1-2 years earlier than the average white who in turn hits puberty earlier than Asians. Blacks not only mature the fastest but they also show that during this time blacks brain development stops earlier than the other races. This is true even in things like muscle development as well as dental and other factors. 15. When blacks were adopted by white parents they still didn’t come up to the IQ level close to whites. 16. Twin studies show that twins separated from birth still grow up possessing similar manners, behaviors and even IQ as well as height. This clearly proves that genes play a large part in behavior and IQ compared to environment. This also explains for example the crime rate in America not being evenly distributed amongst races as well as IQ differences. 17. Asian and Black children adopted in the same families still show the Asian outperforming the Black in IQ as well as school work. Blacks still matured the fastest. Proves that environment doesn’t play 100% of a childs development. 18. Africans came before Caucazoids or Mongoloids. They also still average the same brain to size ratio from several hundred thousand years ago. 19. Another test was done to find out behavior rates amongst races. A piece of candy was given to a group of black, white and Asian kids. The deal was that you can either eat a piece of candy now or eat a larger one tomorrow. Most blacks chose to eat the candy now. Asians had the higher number of kids who wanted the larger one. Whites in the middle. 20. If culture was so significant amongst the races then what explains the failure and the horrible aids rate in Africa? Since you say that Ghana is in a better state than Vietnam then why is the Aids rate much much much much higher in Ghana than Vietnam. Heres a hint, higher IQ people are more cautious and make better choices. 21. In military records amongst freak accidents and preventable accidents the lower IQ people had a higher rate of death due to such accidents. Coincidently the blacks were the most frequent to suffer from this as well. 22. Dozens of IQ tests were performed and found that blacks still always scored lower than whites. Regardless of going to a black school or white school. According to the IQ test correlations lower IQ scoring groups tended to have more women with high IQ averages than males. The reverse was true for higher IQ groups. 23. Higher IQ parents tend to be better parents and also make a more positive environment. Compare black ghettos to asian ghettos and ask the average white guy which is safer. People make their environment and high IQ averages tend to make better environments. Don’t forget that genes also affect behavior. This also explains why a ridiculously large amount of births from blacks happen to be illegitimate. 24. South Korea a tiny country the size of Virginia after being destroyed by war had an economy worse than some of the African countries. It then had a civil war and finally south Korea started modernizing. Modernization began only 30-40 years ago. Today its total GDP is probably greater than all of Africa combined even though it’s a tiny tiny country, has little resources, and its population is 14 times smaller. What explains the IQ difference of South Korea to the African countries? What also explains why South Korea was easily able to out pace Africa even though it doesn’t get food, resources and whatever like Africa gets right now? 25. Why is it that the African countries that had or has White populations are much more successful than the ones that didn’t have them?
Ill write more later.
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Post by BioMan on Feb 18, 2005 6:16:28 GMT -5
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Hallam
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Post by Hallam on Feb 18, 2005 11:59:05 GMT -5
Hallam: I did and most people agree(excluding morons) that intelligence is affected by genes. I didn't say it wasn't. My message implied that anyone who had made the comment that "most geneticist agree" that genes "effect" 80% of intelligence is obviously ignorant of the science of genetics. (A conspicuous fact you make for yourself)
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 18, 2005 16:46:49 GMT -5
Bioman your just making me laugh what are you in high school have ever taken a sceintific research class? Your making a fool out of yourself. Your attempts to discredit my arguments all betray your lack of education. If you want to make in depth arguments from scientific perspective you have to study the primary literature I.E peer reveiwed journals. The fact you think books are more important indicates your completely lack of science education, books are second rate sources, that are allways behind the time, do not have to peer reveiwed and do not focus on methods. You ask why my sources all come from PUBMED because its the closest thing the sceintific article data bases researchers and students use available to the genereal public. I could as easily descredit you using medline but I would have to cut and past the abstracts which would be a pain in the ass not to mention a breaking copywright law. Speaking of abstracts. If you want to know flynns methods go read the article thats just an abstract. This one I had to quote And any site that claims that the concept of race is obviously run by a group of biased egalitarians. The concept of race does exist and it can be proven by several factors. First of all this is logical fallacy an ad Hominem, second Luca Cavilli Sforza is the most respected geneticist. If you don't know enough to take him seriously you clearly don't know the first thing about the field of genetics. As Hallam said you need to read up. This I have to quote too. *sigh* do I have to do everything for you?, ok do you know how humans came about? Humans and modern primates are descendents of a similar primate ancestor. Due to evolution both groups went different paths. With the emergence of modern humans about 200,000 years ago you get blacks. In fact the oldest modern human remains happen to be blacks from Ethiopia similar to modern blacks today. Blacks and whites branched off when early humans went to colder places like Europe. The oldest remains of whites first appeared about 100,000 years ago and they were very different from blacks found in Ethiopia. Africans today are not that different from Africans 200 thousand years ago. Whites and Asians though are very different from those ancient Ethiopians mainly in skin tone and brain size which I already gave evidence on skull size and brain power. Now your starting to piss me off I find this level of ignorance irritating. So you think that evolution just stopped for africans when the became modern? Were have you got your schooling in evolutionary theory from creationist? Evolution doesn't just stop, africans have been evolving over the last 200,000 years too. I actually favor the multiregional model and think the modern affinities of the Herto and Klasies river mouth are exagerated. In any event your wrong again, Herto and Klasies river mouth do not have close affinities with modern black africans, if you had to pick a modern population they most resembled it would be australian aborgines. Take a look at the skulls. Black African ![](http://www.evolutionnyc.com/ImgUpload/P_457357_911049.jpg) Herto ![](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/herto.jpg) Also the skull size bit thats the biggest load of bullshit of the bunch. Herto had 1450 cranial capacity as well above the modern average for blacks whites or asian. The fact is that most UP paleolithic populations had larger Cranial capacities then moderns do you really think we have gotten dumber?
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 18, 2005 19:12:39 GMT -5
![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) WTF? How is it that direct immigrants from africa have more caucasian blood than afro-carribean children who are descended from miscentegated slaves? The depths to which you will go to try and prove a point is simply amazing. Nevermind the fact that the female "part caucasian african blacks" you speak of score better than their male white peers. Why on earth would they acheive better scores than caucasians if their are only part-caucasian? Come again. Early Ethiopians were proto-caucasoid. "Caucasians" did not begin in the cold hinterlands of europe, they arose from the immense genetic diversity in eastern africa, whose progeny migrated all across the world. Just like epicanthic folds did not originate in "mongoloids", many east-africans and khoisan bushmen have that trait. Read some Cavilli Sforza and then come back to me. You sound like a 19th century racial scientist, come back to the 21st century son. They were not "random dunces" in the first place, Bioman, Their brains developed in africa. The first tools were developed in africa. And africans did'nt just stop evolving 200,00 years ago dumbass. Your wooly mammoths and giant super-bears went extinct many thousands of years ago. you have'nt been throwing anyone around, like 99% of the people here disagree with you. Not even the staunchest racists will take your side. Your sources are outdated and lynn and rushton are not even geneticists. So, like I said, come up with some more recent studies done by actual genetic scientists or medical professionals and comeback to me. Untill then, your arguments are total hogwash. Nobody takes that stuff seriously. America's unemployment rate is 6% and has more than double the population of Japan. Learn a little something about markets and economics and come back again, because right now you sound like a dumbass. It did'nt "favor" anybody, it just pointed out an interesting part of the study pertaining to comparisons between white males and black females. According to you vietnam should still be doing better because the gap in intelligence and ability is so large. Nevermind the fact I did'nt say ghana, I said botswana. Pay attention. Vietnam has the same explosive growth model as china I don't see why not? source. No, I'm calling you what you are. No need to pretend like your not. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) Give me the source of all of your your "proven" studies above, then we'll talk. Anyways, bioman, your asian right, what is your beef with black people? What did we do to you?
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 18, 2005 20:25:59 GMT -5
Basically the same thing. They are both terms that reach outside the boundary of selfishness favoring a more cooperative behavior that can be detrimental to the individual. Altruism is not neccesarily good either. Our economies run on selfishness not altruism, altruism destroys the self, removes motivation from the human spirit. Anyways I would'nt neccessarily call slavery, segregation or colonialism "shortcomings", as if to imply we caused them. OMG ROFL ;D ;D Overwhelming? hilarious bioman. Vietnam is not exactly a step ahead of ghana, reagrdless of the meaningless pictures of pverty you show me. Ghana and vietnam are roughly equal in GDP.There's poverty everywhere, unfortunately as a result of historical conditions and other things, Africa suffers heavily from poverty. I never said the book claims it directly, however, it is what they are implying. The funny thing is prior to 1973, a mentally retarded IQ was about 85, the IQ average you say african-americans are at, today it is 70, the rough average, according to you, of pure africans. www.ericdigests.org/2003-4/mental-retardation.htmlNow an IQ of 70% is about 2% of the U.S. population, the equivalent pre-1970's would be 85, again that would have been the lower percentile of the population. You are telling me that 95% or more of the african population is basically mentally retarded then? Wow, thats quite an outrageous assertion if you ask me. Funny thing is, Nigerian immigrants happen to be one of the most highly educated groups in the US. There were savannah's in meso-america? Notice how some indian groups developed those civilizations while others lived in tents and were hunter-gatherers. "Civilizations" develop based upon certain conditions. Besides the fact you've probably never heard of nubia, yes there's great zimbabwe (which was huge, this civilization consisted of dozens of lesser known towns and cities) and some others that are much lesser known, but no less impressive. For example, the Loango kingdom through the 14th-18th century was at a level comparable to feudal europe. They had wheeled carriages. Built elaborate well-planned cities and buildings out of wood. Made glass, textiles, intricate ivory artwork, beads, they had well-devoloped export industries based upon craftmanship. ![](http://www.mariner.org/captivepassage/photos/lg_g160a8loango.jpg) Ancient City-State of Loango ![](http://www.sciencebuff.org/images/dynamic/welcome/perceptions9.jpg) Picture of Vili people and architecture (loango) ![](http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Ibn_Battuta/kilwa.jpg) ancient tanzanian city of kilwa ![](http://www.crystalinks.com/pyrmeroe.jpg) Pyramids of nubia ![](http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientnubia.jpg) Nubian temple
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CCC
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Post by CCC on Mar 17, 2005 15:43:11 GMT -5
I think most of us in the more developed nations fail to realize that in order for one group to live in luxury someone else has to live in poverty. If the entire world industrialized like say, the United States, then the US wouldn't be able to maintain the level of opulence it has grown accustom to. The major powers of the world don't want Africa to reach its full potential. Unbeknownst to the average citizen of the 1st world we are still heavily exploiting the rest of the world. We pay off dictators in chump change of millions and fund civil wars in order to gain access to billions of dollars in nearly unlimited resources, so unless you want to give up the things you take for granted we should just sit back and allow imperalism to do what is does best. Its not and issue of superior vs inferior, although that might tingle your egos to think so. Many Africans who immigrate from their native countries go on to become successful doctors, lawyers, businesspeople, etc. There are intellegent and unitellegent people in every ethnic, or racial, or whatever you want to call it, group. By the way if you study the history of the IQ test the averages have changed depending on the cultural norms of a particular period. 100 is always the white average because the test is always curved to make whites test out at 100. Today's 100 isn't the same as 1920s 100. Asians for example used to test out at 84-85, now they test out at 107, and a miner in rural Zambia who has never had a formal education equal to that of a American suburbanite isn't going to test the same.
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Post by eufrenio on Mar 17, 2005 16:11:59 GMT -5
I think most of us in the more developed nations fail to realize that in order for one group to live in luxury someone else has to live in poverty. If the entire world industrialized like say, the United States, then the US wouldn't be able to maintain the level of opulence it has grown accustom to. . That´s no true. For capitalism to grow, you need a network of comparable economies exchanging goods, services and capitals. US economy depends on trade with other developped parts of the world, such as East Asia and Europe. Nobody profits from Africa being backward, except local corrupt politicians.
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CCC
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Post by CCC on Mar 17, 2005 16:33:07 GMT -5
That´s no true. For capitalism to grow, you need a network of comparable economies exchanging goods, services and capitals. US economy depends on trade with other developped parts of the world, such as East Asia and Europe. Nobody profits from Africa being backward, except local corrupt politicians. There wouldn't be corrupt politicians without outside forces funding their bank accounts. Look at what the oil industry has done to Equatorial Guniea. Its a small country with a population of several hundred thousand people and enough oil reserves for everyone in the country to be millionaires instead its leaders live like kings, as do the foreigners employed by international companies. They have private gated compounds surrounded by poverty. Its very hard to get people in an industrialized first world nation to do things like pick fruit for pennies on the dollar so that a substantially large money making population can have oranges in the middle of winter. The wealthy and middle class need the lower classes to maintain and have the opulent variety that they have. People always complain about foreigners working at fast food facilities, but you can't get the average teenager in America to work at a burger joint anymore, but they want the latest video game. Capitalism, Communism, Democracy may all look good on paper and in theory, but unfortnately man is inherently corrupt and self centered so these ideals and thoeries don't tend to work out as planned in real life.
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