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Post by BioMan on Feb 13, 2005 9:50:09 GMT -5
I fanatically embrace the fact that races are different because people like you and Kame refuse to believe they are different. Tell me, if everyone on this board was the same they please counter act the facts I made that distinguishes race. Experts can tell races apart just by looking at bones or even earwax samples. That’s how different the races are. And most theories that claim that race is nonexistent happens to NEVER PROVIDE SCIENTIFIC PROOF. What the do claim is that their theory is morally correct. In that sense its like claiming that the earth is the center of the solar system. Its morally correct in the eyes of the catholic church a few centuries but it still contradicted science. Who won in the end? Science will win in the end. Im not posting theories either. Look at all the facts I presented. I would look at your sides facts and consider them, but strangely enough neither you nor kame provide scientific fact to counter anything I say. Its true that your side is morally correct but that’s about it.
Its also very stereotypical to label smart people as nerds with no social lives. Have you ever been to East Asian countries or visited densely areas with lots of Ashkenazim jews? Theres plenty of laughter and fun going on. And perhaps smart people are much more likely to work for the boss as “SERVENTS” but then the key factor to why black countries were never as successful was because they never organized or worked together as well. High testosterone leads to aggression and urge for complete dominance and control. Instead of working together to maximize effectiveness blacks chose to split up in tribes.
Not only that but did I claim that everyone in race A is super smart while everyone in race B is dumb? No I didn’t, there are plenty of blacks with Iqs over 140. Its just that they occur much less frequently(much like white and asian 100 meter sprinters in the Olympics).
And I can gaurantee you that even 50 years from now Blacks will still be blaming all problems on white Americans for their lower success rate in the US. You do know that Americas average IQ is actually dropping? If you read the book “IQ and the Wealth of Nations” you’ll be surprised to know that a mere 3 point in difference in IQ amongst nations can be a huge difference”.
And what are you trying prove about wanting to live in a society of the “dumbest, cleverest and average”? Diversity can be a good thing, it can also be something thats bad.
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Post by Human on Feb 13, 2005 12:12:55 GMT -5
ive said that before and i will do so again. i do believe there may have differences deeper than the physical ones... every individual is different by the way. that is pretty obvious.
now, that the differences are the ones you are saying, with our methods still flaw in many way, thats quite another different matter...
your fanatical positions should be replaced by an open minded approach on our apparent differencies...
you might better be saying, e.g, this thing may be that, or that one may be so, ... you see, start using may to express some tendencies your empirical observations have lead you to believe.
the future may prove our present conceptions on race to be entirely wrong. you know that. even in the present you espouse the most discreted of theories.
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Post by eufrenio on Feb 13, 2005 14:39:33 GMT -5
Its also very stereotypical to label smart people as nerds with no social lives. Have you ever been to East Asian countries or visited densely areas with lots of Ashkenazim jews? Theres plenty of laughter and fun going on. I wonder if that´s an American stereotype. That is, the strange idea that if you´re not a "regular guy" you must be a "nerd". ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) I know what you mean, in my country, Spain, where everybody is more or less extraverted, intelligence doesn´t interfere with having a normal social life. Everybody goes out and meets other people. Bioman, are you Oriental?
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Post by Human on Feb 13, 2005 14:53:28 GMT -5
i didnt say intelligence correlates with 'being nerdy'. i said the people bioman said are 'the cleverest' tend to be nerdy, and highly introverted. ive read about a typical japanese syndrome where people do all the things a normal person needs to staying at home (working, buying thing, having 'virtual sex', etc etc). japs are amongst the most introverted of all. they are extremely hard working, and they seem to sacrifice their lives for it (i wonder if theyll ever have a 30 hour or so labour time like they have in France ever). if thats an 'intelligent' way of life im running of, definetely...
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Post by BioMan on Feb 13, 2005 15:39:03 GMT -5
True there is no perfect way to measure intelligence and intelligence shouldnt be labeled into a single category. Yet when it comes to useful knowledge blacks lag behind the other races. And my position isn’t fanatical, I listen to your side as well. If anything your side is the fanatical one since Kame refuses to read the stuff I post or largely ignores the points I make. How can you dissect racial differences if Kame cant even admit racial differences exist.
Eufrenio yes im Asian and I must say that some of the most popular kids in Asian schools are also the smartest or the best in sports.
Human again: The cleverest tend to be nerdy true, but then the clever people of any race make up only 1% of the population. Go to any school and you’ll find lazy, athletic, nerdy and cool kids all over the place. Asians in Asians schools don’t behave all that differently from blacks in black schools. Both hang out with their friends and study .
Only difference is that one race has an easier time absorbing material and processing it while the other doesnt. And how do people become nerd geniuses in the first place? They become nerds by standing out. In a blacks case they can stand out amongst other blacks much more easilly. The average African Americans IQ is 85. Meaning 50% of African americans are below or at 85 and 50% are above or at 85. If you look at the bell curve IQ differences then that means less than 15% of African Americans will have an IQ of 100. And less than 5% will possess an IQ of 110. Thats why its much much rarer to see stand out African American "nerds". Something like a stand out 140 IQ African American will be way way way lower than 1% but they exist. Just not in great quantities. Thats why you label the other races as "nerdy and lacking social lives, because they have a higher likelihood of standing out".
Another surprising fact amongst the races, blacks are the least altruistic amongst the races. They also have the hardest time working together and instead wish for dominance. And you have no idea what your talking about when you say that its typical for Japanese to stay at home to do all needs. Japanese are perhaps the most out venturing people in the modern world. Typical Japanese live in crowded areas, in fact homes are small. It doesn’t matter though since most people do their living outside. Ever been to Tokyo, look how crowded that place is. Or go walk down Tokyo at night and you’ll see lots of people partying and singing. Its so lively and theres all this talking, everyones on their cell phones speaking with their friends. Quit making BS about Japanese staying home all the time. And why the hell do most Japanese buy cell phones in the first place if they stay at home all the time? Why are Japanese subways so danm crowded. When you exit a Japanese subway, you’ll find a dog statue in almost every subway exit. You have some sick twisted idea that people with higher Iqs tend to have no social lives.
People tend to use this excuse on smart people just to cover up their flaws. In your case, your using it on Asians to cover up the black race. Its an excuse and nothing more.
And is working for someone really that bad? Well if that’s what most Africans believe then its no wonder why they cant maintain powerful economies or civilizations. And besides its not like several African groups work and bow down to their Tribal masters as “SERVENTS” oh wait nevermind. In the working mans case, they get pay and they also choose whether or not they want to work for a boss. They can leave any time they want and start their own business. In fact you’ll see several self employed businesses by immigrants. Don’t blame the failure of blacks on other races and claim they are losers with no lives. In a sense, they can also point their fingers at you and call you lazy bums and failures. Do I believe blacks are lazy or destined to be failures? No I don’t, its just that they cant compete with higher IQ averages. First its culture to blame, now its social life. Whats next?
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Post by Human on Feb 13, 2005 16:36:37 GMT -5
i didnt mean all japanese are introverts. i only meant a general trend... e.g, the peculiar syndrome i mentioned above.
plus, i dont take any side, ok?
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Post by Human on Feb 13, 2005 16:53:46 GMT -5
also that thing about asians getting most of nobel prizes, considering a broader period of time, is a whole bulshit to me.
on this respect, nearly all sorts of humans have given their contribution to the general development of humanity.
being by far the most populated area in the globe, it should be expected some contribution from China. China alone has more mongoloids than the entire population of living negroids.
yeah. gunpowder, ok. what about the alphabet? what about the hindu numbers? what about Greek philosophy? what about Jewish morality?
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Post by Human on Feb 13, 2005 16:56:54 GMT -5
is there an IQ for artistic achievement as well? ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) i mean, i can listen reggae, i find jazz interesting, as well as blues. there are many other black styles as well. many people think like me... like me too, no one out your asian area enjoys your music. by the way, caucasians have done superbly well in the musical and artistic arena.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 13, 2005 16:57:30 GMT -5
Bioman your argument is circular because you use the lack of achievement of blacks as the evidence for the validity of IQ as predicitor of acheivments of races, and then claim IQ is the reason for that lack of acheivement. Your two premises are dependant on each other it fallacious argument.
The texts you quote are not well regarded with in the scientific community, that doesn't neccesarily mean there incorrect but it should give you pause to consider your own ideas. As I explained early on this thread and on other threads Cultural/Ecological materialism is a much better predicitor of national achievments then Race. If your postulating differences Racial between south east asians and north east asians your going straight against the best evidence of Genetics and Biology, there the same race very closely allied genetically its unlikely there would be significant difference between them in something as bioliogical important as intelligence.
IQ is usefull tool for between invididual differences in a certain types of intellegence, it does not encompass the whole range of intelligence and it usually has some level of cultural bias. I read both sides of the IQ debate as well, I love Steve Sailer columns for instance, and I talk both sides with a pinch of salt. There are clearly biological differences between populations, people of West african descent can clearly run faster then Europeans and Asians, but there are other reasons for the patterns we see then Race you have to look at all the factors. Your argument about why Blacks don't dominate in Hockey Swimming and Car Racing is clear example of reaching for Biological answer when a cultural answer is much more Cogent.
Have You play ever played hockey it requires incredible leg strength and speed, it also requires the same flow thinking, and ability to visualise the actions of multiplayers that blacks have been so exceptional at in basketball and football. The reason blacks don't dominate hockey is the don't live in areas were hockey is played the black population of the US is Predominately in the south east, California and the north east all areas were game is not popular it is also a sport that requires a lot of monetary investment which makes it difficult for inner city black kids to get into it.
On Swimming the average male Swimmer has four percent body fat your argument is ridiculous, though in this case there is biological explantion, a long legs are disadvantage in swimming if you look at proffesional swimmers the have very long slender and limber trunks which are almost never found in africans.
Your obviously biased towards a racial answer for everthing and it makes your arguments hard to take seriuosly.
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Post by Human on Feb 13, 2005 17:02:32 GMT -5
another fact for you bioman.
though they werent pure negroids (but not nordics either), the north african ancient egyptians (most likely predominantly caucasoid) had some negroid admixture going on.
their civilization was great.
according to your theory it shouldnt be so... the 'so intelligent' mongoloids should have been first, as well as the then savagely tattoed blond naked scandinavians and germans (purer caucasoid types than the egyptians).
why didnt it happen so?
why the mixed Egyptians were amongst the first to outperform??
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Post by BioMan on Feb 13, 2005 18:11:46 GMT -5
Human: Well your still wrong then because there is no Japanese trend of being social celibates. Alphabets come in many forms they are everywhere. Another intresting fact is that the Chinese also created the concept of zero which is so vital in math. But enough about glorifying one group of people. True several races played there part yet you should remember that blacks still failed to accomplish much if at all. Jesus might have won a peace prize, creator of gunpowder would have won a prize in chemistry what about blacks though? And know this, how did Chinas population get so large? Look up at how Chinese farmers did farming, you’ll find some surprising facts. Africa however never really farmed in mass quantities. And about art and music, yes there is probably a IQ for that. IQ tests however deal with your brains ability to think, calculate and judge how logical you are. Blacks are potentially good at music, too bad it doesn’t effect important intelligent aspects like technology or business skills.
Falecinid: I see, so if the scientific community takes my facts with a grain of salt then why do they have so much trouble ever countering the facts? Why is it that most genetics actually believe that race and intelligent differences exist? Importantly though im not using blacks lack of achievements for IQ. Im using other facts like brain size, neuron levels, reflex and thinking rates, etc. Not only that but why on earth are white students in south African schools always scoring much much higher(2 deviations/30 IQ points) than the locals? Whites being the minority there, the whites are probably the ones who suffer discrimination.
And what does cultural effects have to do? What about my examples on children under age 8? Why were blacks always the slowest in the reflex, +complicated reflex test? Why are black children still scoring lowering even when adopted to white parents. What about Black Africans who come to the US during their teenage years(knowing nothing about American culture) still scoring lower? Why is it that all African countries score in the 70s and 60s in IQ tests? What about Asian children raised in white families(who do not follow Confucian values) still scoring way above adopted whites? Why are black babies born with smaller head ratios? Also there is a racial difference between NE Asians and SE Asians, ask anyone and they will agree there is a difference. Not only that but NE asian countries also stereotype SE Asians as inferior and dumb. SE Asians in America also score lower than NE Asians. There is genetic differences, not only that but look at pictures of Fillipinos and Koreans. Youll see a big difference not only in the outside but also the inside. That’s like saying that the Average white person is genetically the same as the average Hispanic guy or Indian guy.
Also in Richard Lynns 1993 IQ tests amongst nations there was no cultural bias. In I believe it was 1982 a IQ test with no cultural biases was used to test the IQ of races. People were so confident that everyone would score similarly and this would spark equality. The results were disappointing and quickly abandoned. And if all IQ tests have cultural biases then why the hell are Asians scoring the highest? With Asians parents or white parents, second or first third and tenth generations ? And IQ does tell a lot about success. Look at the success rate. Asians average the highest American income amongst the races at $45,000 even though most of them are first generation without much if any English speaking skills. Compare that to $25,000 for the average black american family who by the way has affirmative action to aid him/her in whatever occupation they are in. Yet they still make the lowest even though they know English and American culture better than first generation Asian immigrants. Yet who makes more money? Who has the higher IQ?
In 1993 Charles Murray and a few other scientists ran a test to measure how much IQ effects success. Here are some results-
(IQ ranged from 90-110 dull being in the low 90s, medium in 100 and bright closest to 110)
Heres another
And another
Mind you the subjects were both from the same family so there wernt outside factors like having bad parents or whatever.
And about sports, the fastest speed skaters happen to usually be Korean. Skating on ice does not require leg strength, I don’t know about you but when I skate its not that difficult. Your gliding on a frictionless surface unlike running in which you thrust your legs against the pavement using all the muscle power you have. Also did you not read from earlier? Blacks have dense bones+denser muscles. That helps them to sink which also means he needs more power to propel himself in water.
Next time if you plan on disaproving anything I say try ATTEMPTING to do so with scientific evidence rather than mumbo jumbo.
Human again:
The earliest Egyptians were in fact Caucazoid, for example Emperor Ramses II whos corpse was found was run with computer scan, he looked very very Caucasoid. There were no doubt blacks in the area though but the 2 races arnt as mixed as they are today. Today due to mixing the average Egyptian IQ is in the 90s. Also Korea actually has a pyramid that’s larger than the pyramid of Giza, its not made of stone blocks like Egypt but its still nevertheless impressive. Those pyramids are currently in Manchuria. And I think its rather foolish to compare building impressive buildings “first” as a sign of intellect. I doubt China would have been the first to build the Collosseium because China didn’t have Roman architecture influences. Rome never built something like the great of wall of China because its designs used Roman walls plus never saw as much need as the Chinese to build walls.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 13, 2005 20:18:57 GMT -5
Why is it that most genetics actually believe that race and intelligent differences exist? Your just made your self look like a complete fool, you talk about scientific evidence and yet your clearly not aware of the literature. While there is variability with in the field Geneticists in genereal have been among the biggest supporters of discarding he concept of race though that seems be Changing. The most prominent geneticist of our time Luca Cavalli Sforza has stated an anti-race position in no uncertain terms. [ftp]http://www.goodrumj.com/CavalliS.html[/ftp] Geneticists usually see clines not races. Geneticists do use races a concept especially in medical genetics but they don't genereally adhere to a typological definition of race.Here are some articles discussing the issues of race as taxonomic category. [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15507999[/ftp] [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15508004[/ftp] [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15641920[/ftp] Your ignored the main point of my post because of your obbession with IQ but your wrong there too. The relationship between race and IQ is hotly in dispute among those who study it. [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11276904&dopt=Citation[/ftp] [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10876320[/ftp] South African negroids score as well as whites on non cultural biased test. [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2030133[/ftp] Would like to see the full article on this one as the abstract doesn't explain itself but claims the gap between whites and blacks is closing. [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14992214[/ftp] On the problems with Rushtons Cranial Size Data [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10876320[/ftp] [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3955327[/ftp] More problems with IQ and its correlations. Theres plenty of scientific evidence to convince any reasonable researcher of caution in trying understand Intelligence and the effects of genetics and enviorment.
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Post by Human on Feb 13, 2005 20:32:13 GMT -5
i did not say that Ancient Egyptians were not caucasoids. They were. Predominantly. Due to their proximity, they had some negroid going on too...
You understood what I meant. If non negroidness were the key to success why then that one of the first civilizations emerged in a place not so far away from them? I mean, why not amongst the pure savagely tattoed blond naked British or German of that time? ?
plus, and just for the sake of the argumentation, assuming your whole theory were true (which is not the case, again, in my opinion), even then mongoloids wouldnt outperform caucasoids. these highly controversital theories which you seem to fanatically adopt (and I dont) also say the deviation towards geniuses is more common among caucasoids than among mongoloids, i mean, on average yellow would be smater, but the average genius should be caucasian.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 13, 2005 22:27:15 GMT -5
Human if your really interested in Why civilization started first in places like Egypt check out my thread on the rise of civlizations in the historya and prehistory forum. And blond and tatooed is not a good description of the brits and germans.
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Hallam
Junior Member
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Posts: 94
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Post by Hallam on Feb 13, 2005 22:45:34 GMT -5
Some of those race "scientists" are hilarious. Just look at this quote from Rushton's book "Race Evolution and Behavior."
;D Pure ignorance.
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