Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 11, 2005 17:42:24 GMT -5
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Post by BioMan on Feb 11, 2005 17:53:54 GMT -5
Human: Actually the ironic thing about the Galileo thing is that im the one who should be using it to prove my point. In America for example it is wrong to claim that the races are different. But even you must admit that differences exsist. It is also taboo to say that Blacks are genetically superior in running sports yet we have evidence. I bring up my point as well, and I can prove it with science, wheras those who oppose my points will say its all false even without a shred of scientific information. And guess who will believe who? Most will believe the other side because A. If you don’t you’re a racist in their eyes B. Its “morally” correct to believe all races are only skin deep C. The other side is supposedly crazy. In America people just do not want to believe that races are different(just like how no one wanted to believe that the earth was not the center of the solar system). And civilization started in the Middle East, earliest city I believe was catal hyuk in Turkey. Of course the earliest tribes started in Africa then spread. The creation of the 3 major races "supposedly" occured something like this. Melnorme: About Charisma, well im not too sure if Charisma is really associated with race.Whites would like to see a white president, asians like to see a asian president, blacks like to see black president. Charisma is several factors put in one(some factors being greater than others) for example -looks -speaking ability -intelligence -emotions(a smiling president is better than a frowning president) -experience -back ground story(no one wants a criminal, but people love war heros) -height etc then again, Africans do have high charisma so they'd probally want to be the dominant male more than whites or asians. This can be a pro I guess, although I think its more of a con since blacks on average have tougher times working together which leads to less productivity. Kame: Well you can read books like the G-factor, Bell Curve or you can even read the book Taboo: why Black athletes dominate sports and why we are afraid to talk about it(doesn’t talk about black intelligence, only sports dominance which probably wont be as offensive as other books). Other intresting links include www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/JP_Rushton/Race.htmsq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htmhome.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/tab.htmhome.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/ARJtribute.htmwww.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind93/chap1/doc/1c8b93.htmOr whatever, if you want other info I can give out the links or even publish books on it. About racing, yes I guess racing can be thrilling but then good drivers arnt the ones who are aggressive, in fact they try to find a opening at the right moment just so they wont get killed. And Confucian ethics+good is BS. It has a small factor but not that much. Several asian Americans families lost their Confucian roots, they act like normal whites families yet they enjoy great success and I already listed my sources at the top. And why is it that children with one black parent and one white parent actually score a lot higher than the average African American? Is it because the white parent is a good influence? Also Asian brains and white brains are very different. Fact 1: Whites actually average higher verbal points in SAT or IQ tests then Asians. However Asians score the highest because they blow away whites by several points in math tests. Hence the stereotype of Asians being good at math as well as being over-represented in engineering colleges and scientific researches. About the Somaon and Mongolian thing, Mongolians have the potential to be very smart. Also Mongolians arnt that big, for example the average Korean male is taller. But the big point I should make though is that not all “Asians” are smart. I already said that East Asians(Chinese, Japanese, Korean) are the ultimate when it comes to things like math. Fillipinos for example are at the level of Hispanic people(between blacks and whites). And Lynn and Rushton both have phds, they are much more credible then the average person. Oh and you vastly overestimate the violence in Japanese crimes. Ever saw the crimes Africans commit in Africa? Like hammering your foe with a club then eating his brains so you can gain his strength? Nevertheless that still doesn’t change the fact that “JAPAN HAS ONE OF THE LOWEST CRIME RATES IN THE WORLD”. The opposite is true for Africans who have much much higher rates of crime. Someone murdering a kindergartener in Japan is a big deal. Someone in Africa slaughtering an entire village full of children however is routine. Not only that but look at the US. Which race is much more likely to commit crimes? You keep blaming it on culture, so then according to you Asians have smaller penises, unique eyes, and shorter average heights because they follow Asian culture? I guess that means if you introduce an Asian with rap music and feed him soul food like a stereotypical African American, then the Asians skin will turn dark and he will get a big penis. Correct? And Japans groping rate is much much much lower than Africas(who btw you see women raped then shot and no one cares). Furthermore Japans groping laws are very poor. Police don’t even care about it, so old men continue to grope. HOWEVER Japanese groping rate in America is very very very low. Much lower than American whites and especially blacks. Why? Because theres stricter sexual harrassment laws in the US. And please tell me about ghanas and botswanas crime rate. Also tell me if they really have a police force.
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Post by BioMan on Feb 11, 2005 18:03:51 GMT -5
you'd be surprise at the number of people who know that race and crime rate+intelligence effect each other.
For example me.
In public I will never admit that race plays a part in intelligence because ill be labeled a racist+im a coward.
But deep down inside I know the truth.
Years after Galileo there were a considerable amount of people who started believe that the earth wasnt the center of the solar system. Yet the would never admit it. Why? Because they would be criticized, possible put into prison.
The same is true for bringing up race and genetics. You hear people saying that no race is superior at sports and that its only culture that makes blacks good at sports. Even though all scientific fact proves otherwise. Famous sports anchors have been fired or almost by simply saying that blacks are better at sports. Is it racist to admit that racial difference exist because they really do? If so then I guess im a racist even though I dont hate any race.
Kame, one question for you.
Do you believe that West Africans are genetically gifted at sprinting while Kenyans are genetically gifted at long distance running?
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Post by Human on Feb 11, 2005 18:06:16 GMT -5
what i meant is not that there are not any differences. are there? i suppose so... at least, at minimum, the visual difference. it may be likely that there are deeper differences...
now to say the differences are exactly those you are pointing and end of the question, that is wrong in my opinion.
our available tools to look for these differences may be still too primitive. doctors until the XXIX century didnt know about the transmition of infections (and they didnt even know about the existence of bacteria, virus, etc), i mean they were in touch with the patients blood and transmitted others people blood to the patients unaware of what they are doing.
i mean. do you REALLY know what is intelligence? i mean. do you REALLY know what is aggressiveness?
...
...
what i find important to stress is the moral consequencies of your approach.
i mean, like the negative point of death penalty.
what if one discovers after the death of the sentenced that he was innocent???
one is not able to fix things then. bad things will be already done.
there are likely races which are now gone. our racial estate is changing. and probably there will be new races in the future...
this thing is too dynamic to be frozen and explained as you are doing.
what if modern humans deliberately chose not to interbreed with the big headed neanderthal (assuming, as some say, they did it)?? we would not have then your 'above' all modern european... hairy, prominent nosed, somewhat autistic, and etc.
i guess the best approach is to look for the truth, withou thinking you already have achieved it. we havent achieved it in nearly all branches of knowledge... why would we have achieved it then in racial arena?
the moral consequences are too high to have such an attitude.
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Post by Human on Feb 11, 2005 18:07:36 GMT -5
XIX century of course
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Post by Human on Feb 11, 2005 18:12:46 GMT -5
black dominance in sports is a relatively recent phenomenon. some people at the beginning of the XX century used to think they were too stupid to become good boxers!!
they might be thinking wrong things about them, and us, now too...
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Post by BioMan on Feb 11, 2005 18:13:05 GMT -5
Well in that case I guess Africans are potentially high in IQ category of Music and Dance. They seem to be good at creating it even during discrimination. They were the masters of the blues creating unique songs, inventors of hip hop and break dancing. Even African trible dancing and songs were different amongst tribes. I guess you can say they are intelligent there. If muscle strength was part of IQ then I guess blacks would have high IQs as well.
But on a practical sense when it comes to functional IQ used for living in todays society verbal and visuospatial is much more important than being able to sing, dance or run fast.
Intelligence cannot be grouped into one jumble but it that doesnt mean we cant find out what effects what. High Visuospatial gaurantees easier success in math and science. Higher verbal guarnatees success in language, buisness, law and communication. We havent developed an IQ test for measuring other less needed IQ though, but brain power wise it still points that Asians have the largest brains.
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Post by BioMan on Feb 11, 2005 18:15:26 GMT -5
Yes Black dominance in sports is new but you have to remember that back then Blacks wernt allowed in sports. When blacks were given a chance at sports they started dominating in it. About a hundred years ago whites thought they were superior both intellectually and physically and that blacks were inferior. Once blacks however were used in sports and especially during the 1936 olympics. Blacks became known as the sports race. It was also during this time that whites changed the excuse to "blacks are good at sports because they are closer to animals". Blacks were destined to be better at sports.
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Post by Human on Feb 11, 2005 18:37:31 GMT -5
yes maybe the non 'intellectual' 'tortuos' way of seeing thing Miles Davis (and other black american artists) had is much more interesting than the whole code of honour of the 'so intelligent' samurais, who didnt care about their precious human lives (and others), and who used to think in terms of groups (group mentality) rather than as individuals...
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 11, 2005 18:41:41 GMT -5
OMG you are laughable. did you take my "Human Races: D & D style" thread seriously? yeah, and blacks can also bend space and teleport to distant planets. Theres this thing called a "meme" . A meme is unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another. Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans (and presumably other tool- and language-using sophonts) cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has superseded biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits.Memes are very powerful and their effect is well documented. Many asians perceive themselves as "harmonius" and such, regardless of their background. How do many american blacks perceive themselves in contrast? Thugs, pimps, hustlers etc.. anything other than smart or "square". Neoeugenics? Wow, quoting links from an avowed white nationalist and rushton (who is actually a racist) is hardly worth a passing look. I will not even waste my time on those sources. Link please. Listen, did you even go to my previous links on this subject? Black females in the UK (from the carribean and africa, arguably the blackest of the diaspora) do better than white males in academia and earnings. Here's what I think of your bell-curve www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/intelligence/clever.shtmlProbably more bigoted than the average person, I believe they've proven that, but credible? Hell no. PhD's just mean you went to school long enough to get one. Those are all physical differences. because you have squinty eye's and a smaller penis does that mean your IQ will be 110? No. You are a very simple man. Instead of looking at individuals by which the whole of humanity is comprised of, you think we are some amorphous blobs separated by race. Statistics just show current trends. Just because blacks suppossedly have a higher crime rate, you don't just jump out and say "they're inferior IQ is the result because they are black". There are more dimensions and complexity than just simply saying that. You're not a social scientist and stop pretending to be one. Atleast anti-social africans are predictable. Japanese will come out of the blue with some of the most horrendous acts of violence and then go about their day as if nothing even happened. Besides, the fact that Japan still has extremely violent crime is appaling in such an affluent and well-educated society. There is no comparison with superstitous and poverty-stricken africa. Reminds me of Europe during the dark ages. Now that is just dumb. So far, you have not proved your point at all. All you've done is provide bigoted, biased links and stereotypes. Oh yeah, that damn japanese government! They can't create the perfect people by introducing more laws! About crime is botswana and Ghana: www.go2africa.com/botswana/facts_3.aspwww-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/africa/ghana.htmlAnd yes they do have police forces. by all accounts they are excellent and respec the rule of law. Ghana has a lower crime rate than Japan.
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Post by visigodo on Feb 11, 2005 19:02:05 GMT -5
Bioman, the work you keep citing from those two Ph.D.s, has not been proven to be concrete science; there are plenty of academics who refute their work. The first suspicions of these two guy’s scientific worth can be confirmed by looking into Herrnstein and Murray’s academic background. Neither of their backgrounds are in genetics or even the biological sciences. The late Richard Herrnstein was educated in psychology and Charles Murray earned a degree in political science. “Furthermore, Murray and Herrnstein consistently confuse IQ with cognitive ability, intelligence, and smartness as if they were all one and the same thing. This obfuscation seems deliberate, as a thorough reading of the text would unveil the shakiness of their IQ = intelligence based reasoning.” (1.) If you would like I can further give you academic (Universities) WebPages which find this sort of social science, abysmal at best. Do you follow what I’m getting at? Also by your reasoning alone I can make absurd and ridiculous assumptions such as the “most intelligent race is that of the European Caucasoid, and not of the East Asian type as your purported evidence has led you to believe.” I will not use the IQ as a gauge of measurement but rather the Nobel Prize winners in each of their respected fields. Here’s the talking out-of-my-ass evidence. (Look at the overwhelming names on this list: Most if not all are Europeans/European descent ) Physics nobelprize.org/physics/laureates/index.htmlChemistry nobelprize.org/chemistry/laureates/index.htmlMedicine nobelprize.org/medicine/laureates/index.htmlLiterature nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/index.htmlEconomic nobelprize.org/economics/laureates/index.html1. www.rso.cornell.edu/scitech/archive/95sum/bell.html
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Post by BioMan on Feb 13, 2005 0:49:34 GMT -5
Human- way to go at comparing poets and artists with swordsman lol. Yes it’s a very good way to disguise between races. Sorry my sarcasm meter broke.
Kame: Take your DnD thread seriously? If by serious you mean truthful then yes I wanted to tell that races are different.
And if you cant even admit that blacks are superior at sports then I don’t know why im even debating with you. If you cant even admit racial differences then why are you here in the first place? Do you think it’s a mere conincidence that the fastest 100 meter times are held by blacks? Is it a mere coincidence that blacks dominate in the speedy positions of football? Is it a mere coincidence that they also dominate in basketball? I don’t know about you but there are a HELLUVA a lot more whites wanting to join the NFL or in school track then blacks. Yet blacks almost always make the cut over whites. Why is that? Is it because of culture or is it because of genetic differences?
Heres an example from the book “taboo”<br> “32 finalists in the last four Olympic Men's 100 meter races, all of them were of west African descent. The probability of that occurring is less than: 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001 percent”.
Not only is that unlikely but the trend still continues making the probability even less likely. You have a greater chance of getting struck by lightning twice or winning the lottery. The only reasonable explanation for this unlikely probability is that Blacks are in fact genetically much more talented in sports giving them much higher probability of getting into Olympics. Also 200 of the fastest 100 meter times belong to black men. No white person has ever broken 100 meters in under 10 seconds. Blacks have broken it several times. The likely hood of this happening if all races were equal is very unlikely unless race does play a factor. Its not a mere coincidence that blacks are all over the place in sports. Nor is it a coincidence that blacks are under-represented in science and business.
Secondly, why is it that they have denser bones then the other races. Why is it that they have much more testosterone than other races? And why is it that they dominate in sports? Culture is a lame excuse. Culture does not determine your brains size or neuron numbers. Nor does it determine how much testosterone you produce, how dense your bone is or whatever.
Since your so eager to blame everything on culture how about we use examples of children aged 8 and younger. Im sure they arnt into rap or gang violence which you seem to always associate blacks with. So then why is it that even amongst these innocent children blacks still average lower on IQ tests? Why is that they also hit puberty over a year earlier than whites and Asians? Why is that at birth Black babies are capable of supporting their head with their neck muscles yet it takes Asians and Whites several weeks just to develop the muscles to do the same? Why is it that black babies average the smallest head to body ratio at birth? Not only that but black babies cranial and neuron c capacities are lower than the races even at birth. What about other tests like a reflex test. A reflex can tell a lot about IQ+it also shows how fast the brain can react and think or respond to certain questions. So then why is it that even amongst children blacks average the slowest reaction times? Im sure the brains ability to process information isn’t culturally linked now is it? The reflex test is simple, just get a bunch of flashing lights and let them respond to it. The quick thinkers get higher reaction times. When the reflex test used different series of lights and even more complicated patterns the difference between reaction times amongst the races was even larger. Reflex tests are not biased nor do you really need a college education or confucian parents to do well on it.
Does culture effect the baby during its time in the womb? I doubt it. Does culture
Are you going to blame black babies development on stereotypes of black mothers shooting heroin during pregnancy? Are you going to blame it on Africans having poor diets during pregnancy(cause African American Women eat a lot) Excuses are getting old.
And the sites I pulled out were just quick ones I skimmed through excluding the first one. Why not sit down and actually read it rather than ignoring it. It brings up a lot of useful points. And about the site you pulled up, where does it say that black women do better in occupation and academia than white men? Also the link you requested can be found on the earlier links I gave. Particularly the first one. Also Rushton is not a white nationalist or not one when he wrote the article. I mean why the hell would a white person become a white nationalist while claiming asian superiority in intellect and black superiority in sports? That doesn’t make sense now does it. Another point I should make about the BBC thing is that yes black children adopted to white families do score higher than blacks in black families. However the BBC did not mention if they scored as high as white children in white families. Why? Because they knew that even then black children scored lower. If all races scored the same, the BBC would have pranced around all over the place claiming how all races scored equally.
And im not sure whats the case for Ghanas crime rate. Either theres serious bribing that’s done since people are rich in diamonds or perhaps maybe Ghana is one of the few exceptions to the rule. But that still doesn’t change the fact that Ghanas average IQ is 71. Compared to Vietnams IQ which is about 25-30 points higher. And im pretty sure you don’t think Ghana is starving or lacking education, I mean you claim Ghana is some sort of heaven. Yet why is its IQ so low? Can you blame it on culture? I don’t think people in Ghana know about American gangsters, rap music or joining the NBA. And like you said, they have a supposedly decent economy so they should be eating at the very least.
Perhaps theres nothing to steal, perhaps bribing, perhaps the police participate in crime and get away. I don’t know, you better bring up more info. And what are you trying to point out about un-predictable Japanese murders? Well of course there are murderous Japanese people. Theres over 120 million Japanese living in japan, atleast one of them is a murderer. Yet even then they still average one of the lowest crime rates in the world. And if you wish to compare brutal Japanese murders with African American murders then go right on ahead. Youll lose.
Visigodo
If you look at this years Nobel Prize winners, they win prizes for some of the most ridiculous things, Protein degradation and receptors. Sounds fancy and smart, but seriously what are some of the big applicable uses it will have? Most Asians dominate in the technology sector and there is no nobel prize in technology for building a revolutionary new type of TV, Cellphone car or whatever. Other than that look at the worlds timeline before 1600 AD and compare Asia with Europe. If Nobel Prizes existed 3000 years ago then Asians would in fact attain most prizes over time. I mean guess who had the printing press hundreds of years before gutenberg thought of it. Who made gun powder, fire works, bombs and guns. Who developed the first iron clad ships. Who made steel? Who invented paper money or the concept of factories or compassess. Etc etc? You must remember that the only truly modern nation in Asia is Japan. South Korea nor China has really modernized to Japan or Europeon and American levels. But they will get there and when they do Nobel prizes will be dominated by Asians. As for Japans case though, in a practical sense if there was a nobel prize in things like electronics and robotics youd see Japan all over the place. However Nobel Prizes focus on things like Peace(which can be won by any race), Literature(which is biased in favor of Europeons since the judges are europeon descent +cant read asian literature+translation makes texts lose a lot of its meaning). In things like Chemistry and Physics well they can go both ways, but the tide will change pretty soon.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 13, 2005 2:57:42 GMT -5
Africa problems are based on the three major issues, race is not one of them. The first is the difficulty of food production in Sub-Saharan africa, the most productive crops and animals simply do not grow well in africa. If you look at countries with similar climates through out the world they are for the mot part the poorest nations in the world. Its no conicidence that most of the wealthiest countries in africa are in the south were the climate is more suitable to agriculture. You see the same pattern in South america were the wealthiest most succefull regions are in the climatically medditerean or temperate Zones. The biotech revolution has also failed them by decreasing the diversity of crops and making crop failure and famine much more likely.
Illiteracy is another huge problem, illiterate people can not compete in todays world market and it leaves you incredible vulnerable to exploitation. Most of asia had a long history of literacy indead China was ruled by a scholar class for much of its history. Very few SSA nation had a history of literacy of any kind.
The final one is Western Explotation, the simple fact is that the vast majority of africa's mineral and botanical wealth ends up extracted, co-opted and copy wrighted by western and East asian corporations. The same thing is happening in south east asia, and south and central america. Every corporation attempts to externalize its costs and it benefits western corporations for africa, south east asia, and south and central america to be poor because they provide cheap labor and haven't the power to prevent the extraction of their resources. Its not bullshit PC Rhetoric we are a major source of the poverty of these nations it what props up our prosperity.
Its at false analogy to contrast the effects of Colonization in africa with that of colonization in east asia. East asia had civilization that was literate, extensively organized with powerfull economies of their own. Europeans never had th same hold there as in Africa. A better comparison is as I said South east asia and south and central america areas that are geneticall close to east asia but suffer the same problems on global scale as africa. I am firm believer in biological differences between people and am Curious as to whether there is racial pattern to their distrubution but if you think their the root of histories patterns your simply not looking close enough.
The easiest way to have SS'africa and similar areas enter the first world is to encourage population controll(to bad we have bush in office) help prevent disease, invest in literacy and agro-forestry, and prevent our own coroporations from practices that are causing poverty. We also need to explore alternative energy sources because their simple isn't enough fossil fuels for all nations to industrialise.
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Post by Human on Feb 13, 2005 5:22:35 GMT -5
hi Bioman. I find it awesome, when reading that your posts, that you fanatically embrace these theories on race youve just exposed as if all that had to be learnt on this respect has already been learnt. There are many different modern theories nowadays on race. Most of them are just the opposite of what you say.
Nice to know aggressiveness, intelligence, propensity to criminality, are such an easy concepts. There aint complexity at all. I mean all these controversies, according to you, are not because the subjects are really complex, but because people simply do not want to tell the truth.
fanatiscism = narrow mindedness
by the way, I have no embraced theory on the subject diversity of humans. Even if I had I wouldnt discredit all the others... and think the future wouldnt hold any surprises (i mean, i have to explain this to you, people in the future proving what you were thinking was entirely wrong and bulshit).
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Post by Human on Feb 13, 2005 5:29:06 GMT -5
even if we assumed blacks were the dumbest and asians the cleverest still the question wouldnt be answered, phylosofically speaking.
i mean, i wouldnt like to live in a country of nerdy introverts, a nation of savants, people addicted to electronic games (etc, etc), who knows how to calculate, but cant have a proper laugh or so.
i prefer diversity, with the dumbest, the cleverest, the average.
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