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Post by BioMan on Feb 6, 2005 18:48:03 GMT -5
Africa is currently in a situation much worse than Europe, Asia, the Middle East and pre colonial America was during any part in time of the last 3000 years (excluding the Black Death in Europe, Potatoe Famine in Europe and maybe a couple of other instances). This is astonishing because the rest of the world is advancing quickly in a positive direction, while Africa is degenerating with each passing day. In fact African life 3000 BC to 1960 AD would have been preferable than today’s condition. The main causes for Africa’s problems are-
1. Aids 2. Famine 3. Constant wars 4. Belief in magic and lack of education 5. Racism
What everyone should do is not attempt to fix all these problems at once, instead we should try fixing them one by one.
For example magical belief breeds superiority complex, this superiority complex creates racist African attitudes, racism causes war, war causes ethnic cleansing, ethnic cleansing results in many lives lost(especially skilled farm workers),ethnic cleansing causes famine. Famine causes malnourished children, malnourished children have low Iqs. People with low Iqs make poor decisions. These kids grow up to make poor decisions. These decisions include believing in magic, joining a military faction to help on the killings, or spreading aids due to multiple partners. And then we are back to square one, belief in magic and so forth.
There is no root to all of Africa’s problems, instead it is a cycle in which one factor must be abolished one at a time. Like I said, everyone should work together to fix one problem at a time rather than trying to fix everything at once. Even if we solve aids it wont stop the wars or famine. If we solve the wars it still wont fix aids. Break the cycle one by one to make the otheres easier to solve and Africa will be peaceful.
One thing I believe however is that we should stop food aid to Africa. No matter how much food we send, Africa is still starving. Reason? Because of reproduction. Unless Africa can modernize to support its population they wont be able to maintain its population. If we stop food aid though, the population just might stabilize until its at a level where it can support itself. Yes its painful to many in the short run but it might actually spare more lives in the long run. Overpopulation is bad, in fact its also helping the spread of Aids in the African continent.
I also believe that if we are to solve these problems the first thing we will have to do is stop the wars. The war causes famine, racism, genocide of several skilled workers, and children learning to fight rather than learning to read and write. The wars also make it difficult to open schools to educate. Once the war issue is solved, the next thing everyone should do is revitalize agriculture. Once Africa can feed its own population then its time to open up schools so that the newly well fed generation can learn the skills necessary in life. They will learn not only proper morals and racial tolerance, but will also learn to think logically rather than magically. More importantly they will learn about AIDS. Once this new generation is ready, they can start using their education to improve their life span as well as educate their children properly. Thus breaking the cycle of degeneration and creating a new cycle.
War ends/no war-à Peaceà Less Fear and chaos and more land available for farming rather than battlesà farmers are able to feed hungry mouthsà More schools open and children no longer have to fear or learn to fight-à Well fed children get proper education about tolerance, logic and Aids à Lower rates of Aids à Children grow up to be adults and educate their children properly -à this new generation no longer wants war -à Peace Etc etc the cycle repeats itself.
What do you think is the solution to Africas problem, or if you believe there are no solutions, explain why. Please no stupid ideas like invading Africa and placing them in camps.
PS Im aware that Africans average lower Iqs even when well fed+they are much more aggressive then say Asians and are much more R then K . But im still confident that they can sustain themselves if they are led to the right path. Africa might never become a superpower or reach the level of Asian and European countries, but it can still be peaceful.
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Post by alexandrian on Feb 6, 2005 19:07:40 GMT -5
It's quite sad. The only solution is to solve and encounter problems head on. Aid must stop being give-aways, instead of food, how about farming tools, fertilizer, or lessons? Condom distribution must continue. Moreover, Africa must be opened up to investment and every company that invests in Africa must open its books to show that money doesn't just go into the coffers of African warlords and corrupt officials. Africa has huge mineral wealth, it should be the richest continent in the world. I think companies in the more successful nations like Egypt, Morrocco, and South Africa should invest more in African resources, if only to make a heady profit. Africa has enormous untapped potential, the only way to achieve it is to open up more economically and have governments become way more transparent. Corruption is the biggest cause of African failure.
Also, laziness must be replaced with productivity. In Zimbabwe, and to a lesser extent, Namibia, farmland seized from whites is given to blacks who often time lack know-how and productivity. In Zimbabwe this is causing a famine and inflation, in Namibia, I saw people just sitting around on their land. This needs to stop. I think African governments should stop seizing white land.
It would also help if countries like Ethiopia learn to use their water productively instead of threatening Egyptian water supply.
Africa, especially sub-Saharan AFrica, is a real tragedy but one with a plethora of possibilities. I also think that when successful black African societies start to emerge, racial stereotypes and discrimination against blacks will falter, as was the case with Asians after Japan and Hong Kong proved so successful.
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Post by BioMan on Feb 6, 2005 19:28:57 GMT -5
I don’t think Africans can ever compete with the first world nations. A farm in America for example can employ huge machines that do the work of a hundred men. He can sell his crops for prices several times lower than his African counterpart, pretty much making it nearly impossible for Africans to compete. Africans really cant compete with anything. East Asians have highest visuospatial IQ and other math IQ amongst the races so they have the advantage of technology. Whites particularly Ashkenazim jews have high vocab IQ giving them the advantage of better communication which equates to good business. India has a large population so it can work for cheap labor in things like outsourcing. Hispanic and South East Asian countries don’t have as much advantages but at least they have some degree of organization. What does Africa have though? Africa isn’t organized, they don’t have an IQ advantage in either math or vocab. They are underfed and don’t have the manpower of China or India. The Africans who come to first world countries to be educate rarely come back to Africa to help it out. Africa is losing everywhere, truly a pity.
Youd be surprise to realize that Africans are not as lazy as media makes them to be. There are several lazy ones in the US(partially the fault of the US government with its welfare programs and affirmative action), but in Africa they are not lazy, they fight everyday just to survive. Zimbabwe is in piss poor condition due to its dictator/President Mugabe. He is actually ordering the death of many skilled workers. Some of the most skilled farm workers in Africa happen to be those who worked with the British during the time Zimbabwe was Rhodesia. These workers learned from several skills from the British, they are also the ones who hate Mugabe. And Mugabe is known to assassinate or kill anyone who opposes him, heck he kills those who worked for the British yet are still innocent.
They cant do anything though since Mugabe is ordering the death of these important folk and instead giving farm land to his military police(who by the way are not educate nor know how to farm, they prefer pulling heads over carrots). He is creating his OWN famine. Its not the peoples fault, its that moron Mugabes fault. One thing I realize about Africans though is that they are much less altruistic then Caucasoid or Mongolids. They should try to fight for the greater good of their country rather than for themselves.
I agree Africans should quit blaming everything on someone else or something and try fixing it themselves. Secondly they should quit using terror tactics. You might get rich by killing someone wealthy but it wont do any good to your country.
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 6, 2005 22:18:21 GMT -5
www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bc.htmlBotswana has about triple the relative GDP of Vietnam and almost double the GPD growth rate % of indonesia, they also score fairly high in international testing comparisons, (366 out off 500 on one test, not bad). Your gross stereotyping of africans and vast unestimation of their capability's is a rather common misconception. However do not underestimate them. 2,000 years ago scandanavians were'nt particularly accomplished, but they rebounded to form some of the world most advanced countries. Likewise africans could potentially make a serious rebound, probably within the next few decades. Who knows? Maybe a african from a highly advanced country in africa could be the first human on Mars........ This discussion could get interesting.....
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Post by alexandrian on Feb 6, 2005 22:56:26 GMT -5
www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bc.htmlBotswana has about triple the relative GDP of Vietnam and almost double the GPD growth rate % of indonesia, they also score fairly high in international testing comparisons, (366 out off 500 on one test, not bad). Your gross stereotyping of africans and vast unestimation of their capability's is a rather common misconception. However do not underestimate them. 2,000 years ago scandanavians were'nt particularly accomplished, but they rebounded to form some of the world most advanced countries. Likewise africans could potentially make a serious rebound, probably within the next few decades. Who knows? Maybe a african from a highly advanced country in africa could be the first human on Mars........ This discussion could get interesting..... One country means nothing. The sad part is the reason Botswana is so successful is because it has maintained the economic and political system set up for it by British colonoialists. Keep in mind, Botswana has the highest HIV infection rate in the world. However, it still provides an example of how to better manage natural resources. Imagine a transparent, democratic, stable government ruling Angola or Congo, equally distributing wealth, opening it up economically, and managing resources well. Southern AFrica would have the potential to become a world power.
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 6, 2005 23:48:47 GMT -5
I know that, I was merely stating it as a counter-example to biomans assertions. Namely that africans were incapable of advanced, economically sophisticated societies. Besides, it's not only just botswana, you have namibia, gabon, and to a lesser extent, ghana.
Hmmm, why did'nt it work for the plethora of other african countries colonised by the british as well as it did botswana? Even with british influence and ideas, incompetence in leadership will get your country nowhere, as is demonstrated well throughout africa. Give credit, where credit is due.
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Post by alexandrian on Feb 7, 2005 0:54:39 GMT -5
Hmmm, why did'nt it work for the plethora of other african countries colonised by the british as well as it did botswana? Even with british influence and ideas, incompetence in leadership will get your country nowhere, as is demonstrated well throughout africa. Give credit, where credit is due. I did give them credit. And I did blame problems on incompetent leaders. Please read what I wrote in the context of my post and don't just take out small portions to make me look biased or racist.
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Post by BioMan on Feb 7, 2005 6:26:02 GMT -5
This topic is about the whole of Africa not about Botswana.
Botswana’s economy is also driven by Diamonds. One negative factor for this however is that if all African countries were to unite and attempt to sell diamonds to support their economy, it would fail. A diamond based economy is very very limited and can only support a tiny population. Secondly Botswana is a very very tiny country with only a population of 1.5 million. Its much easier to expand a tiny country then a complicated one with a population in the 10s of millions(nor will diamond hunting support it).
And still my other issues about the problems of Africa is that im not really concerned about how much wealth it has. Im concerned about things like wars, Aids, education etc.
According to the same site you’ve given the average life span of someone living in Botswana is 30.99 years for male 30.53 years for female(2004) estimate.
Vietnams average life expectancy is 67.86 years for men 73.02 for women.
The average life expectancy for women is a clear indication that the men’s life expectancy is shrinking if we were to take the 2004 estimate since women live longer then men(It should be lower than 29 years for sure).
Also the infection rate for aids is 37.3% according to the same site you’ve given. Vietnams is 0.4%.
Its not like the larger African nations can learn and become like Botswana and become wealthy as well. Diamond mining isn’t really a skilled occupation, nor can it support a really large population. And its not like Africa is stockpiled of diamonds for all of its hundreds of millions of people to sell.
About Vietnam you have to remember that Vietnams population is much much larger and harder to substain. It was also communist for a while and didnt really start until the 1990s. Botswana however had atleast 100 years(40 years of independence and several more under colonial rule). Botswanas total wealth is 14 billion US. Vietnams is over 200 billion. Because of how limited a diamond based economy is it will stop growing and can only support a limited population. More importantly do you think Diamonds are a unlimited resource? They are so expensive because it is very limited. Diamond mines are exhausted very quickly.
Heres a question-What do you think will happen to botswana if diamond mines run dry?
To tell you the truth, if you were a local of either Botswana or Vietnam, where would you want to live? Most would probably say Vietnam.
It is also very unlikely that a African nation will be able to compete with Asian nations in technology, Western nations in buisness, or countries like China and India in manpower. The only advantage Africa has is lots of natural resources.
Everything else is just a disadvantage to Africa.
PS-Its very unlikely that a African nation will have the first astronaught in mars. With the current situations getting worse each day+lower visuospatial IQ+Most smart Africans are not actually living in Africa.
Africans will be much more concerned about staying alive then going to mars.
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 7, 2005 21:18:47 GMT -5
No sh!t sherlock, I was merely stating Botswana as a beaming example of African potential amongst the many failed states that compromise sub-saharan africa. Left to you however, Africans are incapable of anything above subsistence agriculture. Well it seems to be working for them for the time being and for the last 40 years. However they are rigorously looking for avanues of diversification. In fact, they just recently built a finance center in Gaborone in hopes of becoming the regional financial capital. But diversification and investment is difficult to attract in areas with small domestic populations, despite botswana's favorable investment climate legally wise. Yes, adjusted for AID's mortality, however that is unrealistic for the general population in non-AID's related cases. For instance their president is 62. More like 17% actually www.afrol.com/articles/15067 but that is still an alarming number nonetheless. Anyways, AID's did'nt start in Vietnam or Asia, it started in Africa, logically, it would bear the brunt of the of the epidemic. China is communist too. Vietnam is using the same economic formula china has been using for the last 20 or so years. A mixed social-market economy with heavy state intervention. It's apparently seems to be a successful formula. Besides, that is in relative wealth terms. Like you said, botswana's population is only about 1.5 million, but $14 billion spread over such a small population is quite alot. Wealth is more equitably distributed in botswana, which makes them richer, per-capita, than vietnamese. Um no Here's Botswana: ![](http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/travel/tg/lp/6f/500x500_6fd7b005efafafc5dca97fd968607549.jpg) Here's Vietnam: ![](http://www.wbra.org/html/local/Vietnam%20pics/ModernVietnam.jpg) I'll stick with botswana. Hmmm, you must be one of those people who think "mongoloids" have higher IQ's and such because of genes. I don't know, but if I was living dirt poor in squalor, no clean available water, wars, bad land, and AID's to top it all off, I would'nt be thinking of nobel prizes, so in a sense you are right. However you ofcourse, are wrong in the assertion that Africans, have no potential to equal or surpass asian or european countries simply because they are black. Some countries like china and india are just damn lucky. Their climate was optimal for development. Ample populations, good educations, fertile land, and good socio-economic climate ensure that they will be successful. Most of africa is'nt so lucky unfortunately, and there are a number of reasons why but none of the reasons are genetically related. Do not generalise. Every "race" has had it's dark era's or may have dark era's yet to come, like early scandavanians, africans might be in theirs right now.
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Post by alexandrian on Feb 7, 2005 21:51:13 GMT -5
I'd probably pick Botswana as a place to live if I were living as myself due to a more Western lifestyle (a remnant of British colonialism) and a standard of living very similar to that of South Africa. But if I had to live in either Botswana or Vietnam as a common person of that nation, I'd pick Vietnam because there are more oppurtunities to ascend and less a chance of getting AIDS.
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Post by Igu on Feb 8, 2005 13:22:22 GMT -5
-Tell me why should we fix SS-africa's problem? let nature decide who is able to survive and who's not, we must not interfer. -But still, we can give them advices... their main problem is that they are xenophobe and rancurous, they don't protect and respect immigrants who bring money and create jobs, they don't want to see non-natives responsible of a -possible- economic and cultural rise. they should get rid of all the communist and thirdwolrdist propaganda contained in their pseudo-nationalism. (a sort of neo-colonialism).
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Post by Igu on Feb 8, 2005 13:31:31 GMT -5
-Botswana could be considered as a south african province, like namibia... nothing can be created from nothing, botswana is not an exception.
-Botswana without the white-south african elite is like Algeria without oil. the only successful countries in africa are Morocco and tunisia (egypt does not have a good quality of humans).
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Post by Melnorme on Feb 8, 2005 13:40:46 GMT -5
Sub-Saharan Africa will always be poor ; however, redrawing borders to minimize tribal conflicts and installing pro-capitalist 'benevolent dictators' can go a long way in making it less poor. These solutions are probably currently considered politically incorrect, unfortunately.
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Post by Melnorme on Feb 8, 2005 13:43:23 GMT -5
the only successful countries in africa are Morocco and tunisia (egypt does not have a good quality of humans). Eh...who are the 'good quality humans' in Morocco and Tunisia ? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Igu on Feb 8, 2005 14:24:45 GMT -5
Eh...who are the 'good quality humans' in Morocco and Tunisia ? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) they are moroccans and tunisians! moroccans and tunisaians are very hard-working, disciplined, not dirty and not brain-washed with baathism and socialism. the worst quality (in North africa) is found in algeria.
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