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Post by topdog on Mar 12, 2005 13:03:33 GMT -5
There are very few studies on the AEs where they were grouped with East Africans. You have completely made it up, because there is no study where they are grouped with East Africans before West Asians or native Berbers. Your study was probably terribly biased, and more likely than not, excluded WEst Asians and Berbers from the survey. Don't make shit up... I made it up? However, the Gurnawi gene pool does not consist of a simple combination of Near Eastern and sub-Saharan gene pools, but also includes an East African specific component. This situation has already been observed for the Ethiopian gene pool (Passarino et al. 1998). Thus, the report of a second population in this geographic area showing a similar distribution of mtDNA haplotypes, including the same high frequency of a specific haplogroup (M1), raises the question of a hypothetical presence of an ancestral East African population. Such a population, as evoked by Passarino et al. (1998) for Ethiopia, could have settled on a wider area from Egypt to Ethiopia (including Sudan), the differences observed in current populations being due to further influences from neighbours (South Arabian peninsula for Ethiopia (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001), sub-Saharan input for Sudan as demonstrated in this study by a high exchange rate between Sudanese and Kenyan populations). A similar hypothesis of the existence of an ancestral population characterized by a specific haplogroup could also be evoked in the Maghreb with the U6 haplogroup (Brakez et al. 2001; Rando et al. 1998).,
The results of this study point to a genetic structure of the Gurna population similar to that of the Ethiopian one. This population structure has probably been conserved in some other Egyptian populations even though those which have already been analyzed, such as Mansoura, Assiout and Cairo, failed to show the same characteristics. Mansoura, Assiout and Cairo are very big cities with much continuous and current admixture of individuals from several other regions and countries forming great melting pots. Consequently, data from these great conurbations could be somewhat biased. More extensive investigation of the genetic structure of Egyptians from other villages and from Ethiopian and Sudanese populations will be required to complete the understanding of the structuring of the current population from the ancestral East African population.Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt A. Stevanovitch 1,**, A. Gilles 2 , E. Bouzaid 1 , R. Kefi 1 , F. Paris 3 , R. P. Gayraud 4 , J. L. Spadoni 1 , F. El-Chenawi 5 and E. Béraud-Colomb 1,*[/b] www.blackwellsynergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00057.x/full (Access required) I really made this up(insert rolling eyes here).
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 13:03:34 GMT -5
The architecture of the Sahel in present day Senegal, Burkina Faso, Mali, Niger, Northern Nigeria, Northern Ghana, etc is a mud brick architecture very similar to that in Sudan. Also, since the West Africans during the middle ages would travel west they would encounter the pyramids. So, in the Songhay Empire there is the tomb of the Askias which is a mud brick small step pyramid! In Mali, they have dug up ancient terra cotta sculpture which is often zoomorphic meaning a human body with animal heads. Sound familiar? also, in Mali, is the only other place with rock art similar to in Upper Egypt. Wow. There were pyramids in Mexico and China. Not to mention mummies in Chile and Argentina. THe Mayans had a similar calendar to the egyptians, made of up 360 days divided into months with a group of five days at the end for celebrations. Also, the Mayans regarded their king as a god-king and valued the sun god above all other gods. THere is much more in common between Egypt and the civilizations of Central Mexico than there is between either culture and WEst Africa. And Egyptians are not even related to Mexicans. What you say proves absolutely nothing.
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 13:07:19 GMT -5
Alexandrian, Studies of Genetics on African Americans have shown 2/3 of African American men have an African forefather mainly fromthe Western tip. That includes Wolof, Mande-speakers and Fulani/Peul. The African American slang is based heavily on words from these groups. If you knew anything about the Mali/Songhay, you'd know that they had a large empire of millions. www.1911encyclopedia.org/M/MA/MANDINGO.htmThe genetic reports on Egyptian mummies have not been ordered not to be released and they been doing them since 2000! All of the reports on West Africa have not been published. One third on African American men have a European forefathers mainly Haplotype Rb1 (Celtic). Slavemasters went wild! Most "White" men marrying Black women here currently are Jewish and pass down Ashkenazi surnames/genes to their kids. Oy vey. Well, that's another story. Baruch Atah Adonai Melech HaOlam, Hear Oh Israel, The Lord Thy God is One, Shango, enough for now,
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 13:07:36 GMT -5
I made it up? However, the Gurnawi gene pool does not consist of a simple combination of Near Eastern and sub-Saharan gene pools, but also includes an East African specific component. This situation has already been observed for the Ethiopian gene pool (Passarino et al. 1998). Thus, the report of a second population in this geographic area showing a similar distribution of mtDNA haplotypes, including the same high frequency of a specific haplogroup (M1), raises the question of a hypothetical presence of an ancestral East African population. Such a population, as evoked by Passarino et al. (1998) for Ethiopia, could have settled on a wider area from Egypt to Ethiopia (including Sudan), the differences observed in current populations being due to further influences from neighbours (South Arabian peninsula for Ethiopia (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001), sub-Saharan input for Sudan as demonstrated in this study by a high exchange rate between Sudanese and Kenyan populations). A similar hypothesis of the existence of an ancestral population characterized by a specific haplogroup could also be evoked in the Maghreb with the U6 haplogroup (Brakez et al. 2001; Rando et al. 1998).,
The results of this study point to a genetic structure of the Gurna population similar to that of the Ethiopian one. This population structure has probably been conserved in some other Egyptian populations even though those which have already been analyzed, such as Mansoura, Assiout and Cairo, failed to show the same characteristics. Mansoura, Assiout and Cairo are very big cities with much continuous and current admixture of individuals from several other regions and countries forming great melting pots. Consequently, data from these great conurbations could be somewhat biased. More extensive investigation of the genetic structure of Egyptians from other villages and from Ethiopian and Sudanese populations will be required to complete the understanding of the structuring of the current population from the ancestral East African population.Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt A. Stevanovitch 1,**, A. Gilles 2 , E. Bouzaid 1 , R. Kefi 1 , F. Paris 3 , R. P. Gayraud 4 , J. L. Spadoni 1 , F. El-Chenawi 5 and E. Béraud-Colomb 1,* [/b] www.blackwellsynergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00057.x/full (Access required) I really made this up(insert rolling eyes here).[/quote] Wow....34 people from a remote village in Lower Nubia is supposed to prove something? Not at all. Your survey even admits that neither Assiut (in southern egypt/Middle Egypt), Cairo, or Mansoura has these traits. THis means that in places where there are collectively 20 million Egyptians, there are no East African genes, whereas in a village of a few hundred, they exist. Again, it proves nothing. Besides, here's a quote from the survey: "This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations." THis states that even the Gurna was not isolated from neighboring populations. Furthermore, one of the main connections between the Gurna pop. and East Africa was a WEST EURASIAN component.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 13:08:22 GMT -5
Alexandrian, Studies of Genetics on African Americans have shown 2/3 of African American men have an African forefather mainly fromthe Western tip. That includes Wolof, Mande-speakers and Fulani/Peul. The African American slang is based heavily on words from these groups. If you knew anything about the Mali/Songhay, you'd know that they had a large empire of millions. www.1911encyclopedia.org/M/MA/MANDINGO.htmThe genetic reports on Egyptian mummies have not been ordered not to be released and they been doing them since 2000! All of the reports on West Africa have not been published. One third on African American men have a European forefathers mainly Haplotype Rb1 (Celtic). Slavemasters went wild! Most "White" men marrying Black women here currently are Jewish and pass down Ashkenazi surnames/genes to their kids. Oy vey. Well, that's another story. Baruch Atah Adonai Melech HaOlam, Hear Oh Israel, The Lord Thy God is One, Shango, enough for now, What the hell does any of this have to do with Egypt? Go post it on some thread dedicated to AFro-Americans.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 13:10:33 GMT -5
Alexandrian, I've been studying West Africa for quite some time now. It is with this study that I KNOW West Africa has much more in common with East Africa and AE than most people realize. What I see is that the foreign push into Africa by Semites i.e. Avraham and Sarah into Mitsraim (Semitic land of bondage) was the first in an ever continuing desire to get back to the real Eden(Africa). Alexandria was the first stop having centuries upon centries of invaders destroying the original Black population and pushing them further south. Then, Nubia was next. Then, Ethiopia. All long the Nile foreign men slept with the original African women producing halfbreeds. The modern Ethiopian Amhara men have much NearEastern Y chromosomes. They have a high propartion of Haplotype J. The invasion of MidEasterners deeper and deeper into Africa has produced more halfbreeds along the Sahelian region going further west and west until reaching the western tip of Africa where by chance or not chance Europeans enslaved West Africans to the Americas. A. You base your whole reply on your own inaccurate studies B. You are just making assumptions, there is no proof to back up anything you say C. Again, if the Egyptians were so black, why did they clearly differentiate between themselves and Nubians. D. Finally, if this is all due to the ARab invasion, then why did Greco-Roman accounts compare Egyptians to N. Indians
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 13:13:35 GMT -5
The main West African group which has traveled from the Nile to West Africa's Senegal is the Fulani, Fula, Peul, Peulh, Pullo, and some call them fellahin. They intermarried heavily with the Mandingoes and other groups. These cattle herders are the real precursors of the Ancient Egyptians. The Malian writer Ampate Hamadu Ba was able to decipher the rock art in North Africa using the Fulani/Peul oral traditions. The Genetic studies on the Fulanis countless times link them with the Middle East From Diekenes Blog: dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/archives/000624.htmlK2 represents another migration into Africa In addition to the ancient back-migration bringing R1*-M173 and mtDNA haplogroups U6 and H into Africa, there appears to be another event during the Paleolithic which brought Eurasians into Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 74:532-544, 2004 "K2-M70 is believed to have originated in Asia after the emergence of the K-M9 polymorphism (45–30 ky) (Underhill et al. 2001a). As deduced from the collective data (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002; present study), K2-M70 individuals, at some later point, proceeded south to Africa. These chromosomes are seen in relatively high frequencies in Egypt, Oman, Tanzania, Ethiopia, and Morocco and are especially prominent in the Fulbe (18% [Scozzari et al. 1997, 1999]), the highest concentration of this haplogroup found Are you saying Egyptians are West Asian? I just don't get you. So much contradictory information. First you say they are pure East Africans then you attribute West Asian DNA found in certain WEst African populations to an Egyptian root. Egyptians, Morroccans, and Omanis clearly are not black. Furthermore, there is no proof at all to even substantiate an immigration from the NIle Valley to the West. THese are based on the assumptions of some illiterate Malian musician. Wow. You guys really don't value sources. YOu'll take anything you can get.
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Post by topdog on Mar 12, 2005 13:14:18 GMT -5
Then, Ethiopia. All long the Nile foreign men slept with the original African women producing halfbreeds. The modern Ethiopian Amhara men have much NearEastern Y chromosomes. They have a high propartion of Haplotype J. I can't agree here. Foreign men were not sleeping with African women producing 'half-breeds'. Ethiopian Amhara have 34% J-M267, which is indicative of geneflow from Southern Arabia, but it hardly quantifies your theory that foreign men were going up and down the Nile sleeping with African women. Excluding the Amhara, Arab geneflow with East Africans was very limited. (?) What are you talking about here? The Sahelian region isn't full of half-breeds and Middle-Eastern mixture in West Africans is low to negligible. There was no invasion of Middle Easterners deep into West Africa.
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 13:17:39 GMT -5
quote author=Alexandrian link=board=racesoc&thread=1107546041&start=361#24 date=1110650614] Wow. There were pyramids in Mexico and China. Not to mention mummies in Chile and Argentina. THe Mayans had a similar calendar to the egyptians, made of up 360 days divided into months with a group of five days at the end for celebrations. Also, the Mayans regarded their king as a god-king and valued the sun god above all other gods. THere is much more in common between Egypt and the civilizations of Central Mexico than there is between either culture and WEst Africa. And Egyptians are not even related to Mexicans. What you say proves absolutely nothing.[/quote] Ay Caramaba, La presencia africana en Mexico, la tierra de los indios es muy grande: www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/ancientamerica.htm
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 13:22:28 GMT -5
Hahahaha Wow, what a joke. The Olmec do have black facial feautures, but that doens't prove much. Also, it was the Mayans with similarities to Egypt, were they black too?? Just by posting this link and taking it seriously, you have invalidated all of your own claims.
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 13:44:25 GMT -5
Making myself clear: West Africa was not as separated from the rest of the world as everyone thinks. There is a strong tradition of Middle Easterners mating with African women along the Nile. The present day Nubians, are from that mix. www.thenubian.net/nubtoday.phpHowever, culture and language is transmitted by the mother. The Ancient Egyptians in my view were mixed closer to the African. Their reddish brown skin, clothes, customs, religion and general culture was mostly African. We can see from paintings that they absorbed some foreign women. The Nubians were darker and purer african. When going back to prehistoric times they were completely Black. Since, I have read Jewish interpretations of events, I know, I know they saw the Egyptians as Ethiopian(Black). Tead the Mishna! Also, I can see that the Saharan peoples were a strong influence on AE and were AE had two roots Saharan and Nubian. The RockAt of the Sahara is a precursor to what you'd see on Temple walls. The Nabta Playa Megalithic complex in Upper Egypt(Nubia) is older than any pyramid and the oldest burial mound found in Africa is in Niger. www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/sites/south_america/nabta_playa.htmlTin hanakaten www.futura-sciences.com/comprendre/d/dossier232-2.phpThe Sahara was a matrix for Ancient Egypt, West Africa and Berber/Tuaregs. The problem, I have with you Alexandrian, and others is that you always seem to disconnect yourself from Africans, but need to base your culture on Africans. Berbers do it by getting all their culture from the Tuaregs. L'Academie Berber based it's neo Tifinagh on the Tifinagh maintained by the Black Tuareg women. The Ashkenazim and Sephardim get their deepest understanding of original Judaism from the Beta Israel and say they aren't the original Jews. The Northern Egyptians take Egypt, while anthropologists have to go to the Nubians/Upper Egyptians to find people who preserved the ancient cultures. Hmm... Shango
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Post by topdog on Mar 12, 2005 13:44:42 GMT -5
THis states that even the Gurna was not isolated from neighboring populations. Furthermore, one of the main connections between the Gurna pop. and East Africa was a WEST EURASIAN component. You don't know how to read that study but I will refrain from explaining anything to you, since you will never see the light, I'd just be wasting my time. You previously stated that Upper egyptians show no affinity to East Africans and I simply showed that they do in fact show affinites with East Africans. I don't have to explain anything further.
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 13:50:54 GMT -5
Africans were in the lands of the Maya. Those heads show hair braided in African style. They found metal alloys in the area exactly the same as in percentage as in West Africa. 10 percent of the men in Mexico have West African Y chromosomes. The Mayans, Aztecs, and other American Indians are related to the Asians. Hahahaha Wow, what a joke. The Olmec do have black facial feautures, but that doens't prove much. Also, it was the Mayans with similarities to Egypt, were they black too?? Just by posting this link and taking it seriously, you have invalidated all of your own claims.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 13:53:25 GMT -5
This is ridiculous I am not going to argue with narrow-minded people dead-set on attaching themselves to some semblance of a heritage. Anyone who thinks that Egyptians/North AFricans/Middle Easterners are even remotely related to West Africans is not worth talking to. The burden of proof is on you to show that AEs are not related to Modern eGyptians and are more related to West AFricans. None of you have provided for it. I'm not going to argue with people on my own ancestors. It's pointless and worthless. I know who I am, I know where my ancestors came and I'm proud of that. I see no reason to believe that I'm not linked to them. I don't mind acknowledging that i'm mixed, because I know that, and I know many Egyptians are. It's more of a good thing, because in addition to Egypt, we can have a connection to ancient Greeks and Phoenicians. West African-derived Afro-Americans have no connection to any of the above-named ancient civs. Again, an Afro-American claiming Egypt is no different than a Yemeni claiming Korea.
This is incredible- 25 pages, 375 posts, 4500 views. Unbelievable.
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Post by Minstrel on Mar 12, 2005 14:12:35 GMT -5
I do not see the comparison. Korea is much further from yemen as west africa is from egypt. koreans are not even remotely culturally similar nor show any historical affinities to yemen. Egypt is in africa, on the same continent, separated a by the sahel desert where trade links have been ongiong for hundreds of years.
Need I also remind you that we are all descended from SS Africans anyway, the middle east being their first destination, through india and into central asia.
Alexandrian, I understand your frustration with afrocentrists, but do not go to the other extreme, you will end up discrediting yourself.
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