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Post by Faelcind on Mar 12, 2005 2:47:12 GMT -5
Don't attempt to speak for the whole dodona community. I have not seen Kame, make the claim that egyptians are or were fully black. Again you seem to be painting everone with the same brush, that certainly evidence of extremism. I don't want to come of as Kame's lawyer as Igu put it, but I think he gets unfairly compared to some of our more famous afrocentrist posters. He has said some ridiculous and racist stuff in this argument but so have you.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 2:52:39 GMT -5
Don't attempt for the whole dodona community. I have not seen Kame, make the claim that egyptians are or were fully black. Again you seem to be painting everone with the same brush, that certainly evidence of extremism. I don't want to come of as Kame's lawyer as Igu put it, but I think he gets unfairly compared to some of our more famous afrocentrist posters. He has said some ridiculous and racist stuff in this argument but so have you. I didn't try to speak for the whole "dodona community". Kame did indeed insinuate that egypt was a wholly African civilization in race and culture and although he isn't as extremem as other previous posters, he makes some similar mistakes. If I misunderstood him and he didn't think the AEs were mostly black then I apologize. I don't think you can compare me saying the egyptians were mostly Caucasoid with negligible Negroid influence to heinous AFrocentric claims of pure black Egyptians.
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Post by Faelcind on Mar 12, 2005 2:59:32 GMT -5
I think you calling them heinous is pretty extreme. Sad yes, ignorant yes, arrogant maybe, but heinous when you state it like that its hard not get the impression your a racist.
Since Egyptians are by all credible accounts mostly caucasian and have been since the dawn of their history your position is certainly more credible. Its sheer zealotry of your desire for egyptian caucasianess and disgust at the idea of black admixture that is comproable extreme in my humble opinon. Though let me say that I do respect you for being able to continue having this debate with me in civil tone, I don't think your a troll just a little overly emotional about your homeland.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 3:02:10 GMT -5
just a little overly emotional about your homeland. I suppose so, but if you really think about it- Who isn't?
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Post by Faelcind on Mar 12, 2005 3:05:52 GMT -5
Many people are sure but lets just say you often take to an extreme .
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Post by topdog on Mar 12, 2005 7:36:25 GMT -5
I agree with mike that egyptians have more affinties with ethiopian and somalian type east africans then nilotic negroids. Somalis and Ethiopians are black Africans. BTW, being SSA African in phenotype doesn't necessarily entail fitting one specific stereotypical physicaly type.
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Post by topdog on Mar 12, 2005 10:34:46 GMT -5
No there isn't, you might be able to support the idea that AE had closer affinities to east africans then modern egyptians, but ever scientific morphometric study of AE's has clustered them closer to west asians and other north africans then SSA especially west african blacks. Which studies are you talking about? References please. Every study on AEs that I have saw always emphasised that Upper Egyptians were morphologically closer to Nubians, Somalis, Saharans, etc. All of those peoples are 'sub-Saharans' in th broadest sense of the word. West African blacks as well as East and Northeast Africans cannot all be grouped together as the same because there is great diversity within each of these populations. In other words, not all West Africans look the same, populations in the northern part of West Africa are less robust and broad than those in the southern part. There is even a north-south cline in morphological traits in West Africa, but the cline has nothing to do with mixture with Arabs and North Africans, its mostly driven by climatic adaptation and natural selection. I had to make this point because you keep emphasising the 'West African blacks' distinction.
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 12:11:45 GMT -5
I know the Jews didn't build the Pyramids, and neither did Blacks. Egyptians built it. I don't need to prove to you that i'm egyptian, I know I am. You are the one with no connection to egypt. You're just an ashamed AFrican-American with nothing to find in your WEst African heritage. You claiming ancient Egypt is like a Yemeni claiming ancient China. Furthermore, your "evidence" revolves around a reproduction of a painting that doesn't even show the actual painting and that is in a book by a notoriously idiotic Afrocentrist, CHiekh Anta Diop. Furthermore, the original reliefs you show are not of egyptians. WHy would the artist get it wrong, if in his pic there were clearly four Libyans, while in the Diop reproduction that isn't true? I've already disproved the Herodotus quote earlier in the thread and have provided Greco-Roman texts that suppot my point of view. Interesting how you refused to comment on this actual relief, taken straight from the tomb Why did you not comment on the last two tomb pictures I posted that clearly showed stark differences between Egyptians and Negroes? Afraid to see the truth? The burden of proof is on you buddy, with no genetic evidence to back up your opinion, a couple of misinterpreted quotes, and an inaccurate reproduction of a tomb relief, you don't have much of a case against something we in the real world like to call common sense. Common sense is what hits you when you clearly see in the last two tomb pictures I showed that the ancient Egyptians completely differentiated themselves from black Africans, Sorry to break it to you buddy You are not an Egyptian I am You have no claim to ancient Egypt I do Nobody in the real non-Afrocentric world views you as related to the AEs Alexandrian, I've been studying West Africa for quite some time now. It is with this study that I KNOW West Africa has much more in common with East Africa and AE than most people realize. What I see is that the foreign push into Africa by Semites i.e. Avraham and Sarah into Mitsraim (Semitic land of bondage) was the first in an ever continuing desire to get back to the real Eden(Africa). Alexandria was the first stop having centuries upon centries of invaders destroying the original Black population and pushing them further south. Then, Nubia was next. Then, Ethiopia. All long the Nile foreign men slept with the original African women producing halfbreeds. The modern Ethiopian Amhara men have much NearEastern Y chromosomes. They have a high propartion of Haplotype J. The invasion of MidEasterners deeper and deeper into Africa has produced more halfbreeds along the Sahelian region going further west and west until reaching the western tip of Africa where by chance or not chance Europeans enslaved West Africans to the Americas.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 12, 2005 12:13:33 GMT -5
Which studies are you talking about? References please. Every study on AEs that I have saw always emphasised that Upper Egyptians were morphologically closer to Nubians, Somalis, Saharans, etc. All of those peoples are 'sub-Saharans' in th broadest sense of the word. West African blacks as well as East and Northeast Africans cannot all be grouped together as the same because there is great diversity within each of these populations. In other words, not all West Africans look the same, populations in the northern part of West Africa are less robust and broad than those in the southern part. There is even a north-south cline in morphological traits in West Africa, but the cline has nothing to do with mixture with Arabs and North Africans, its mostly driven by climatic adaptation and natural selection. I had to make this point because you keep emphasising the 'West African blacks' distinction. There are very few studies on the AEs where they were grouped with East Africans. You have completely made it up, because there is no study where they are grouped with East Africans before West Asians or native Berbers. Your study was probably terribly biased, and more likely than not, excluded WEst Asians and Berbers from the survey. Don't make shit up...
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 12:24:50 GMT -5
Furthermore, the largest monument in Africa is not in Egypt, but rather in Nigeria. It is the 100 mile long Eredo wall. From Ethiopia to Senegal there is a line of megaliths in which the megaliths in Mali, West Africa have a strong resemblance to those in Ethiopia.
Senegal has the largest number of megaliths concentrated in any country in the world. They are arranged in circles near burial mounds of the ancient kings and are filled gold, silver and other precious objects. They are near the Senegal River Valley. Mali to the East also has these burial mounds with megaliths (obelisks) near by. When the MiddleEasterners came into the river valley areas they called the Senegal river "The Nile" and they called the Niger River "The Nile" . They did not have an accurate map and thought the Blacks living in these areas were at the most southern end of Nubia.
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 12:33:30 GMT -5
The architecture of the Sahel in present day Senegal, Burkina Faso, Mali, Niger, Northern Nigeria, Northern Ghana, etc is a mud brick architecture very similar to that in Sudan. Also, since the West Africans during the middle ages would travel west they would encounter the pyramids. So, in the Songhay Empire there is the tomb of the Askias which is a mud brick small step pyramid!
In Mali, they have dug up ancient terra cotta sculpture which is often zoomorphic meaning a human body with animal heads. Sound familiar? also, in Mali, is the only other place with rock art similar to in Upper Egypt.
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 12:42:50 GMT -5
The main West African group which has traveled from the Nile to West Africa's Senegal is the Fulani, Fula, Peul, Peulh, Pullo, and some call them fellahin. They intermarried heavily with the Mandingoes and other groups. These cattle herders are the real precursors of the Ancient Egyptians. The Malian writer Ampate Hamadu Ba was able to decipher the rock art in North Africa using the Fulani/Peul oral traditions. The Genetic studies on the Fulanis countless times link them with the Middle East From Diekenes Blog: dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/archives/000624.htmlK2 represents another migration into Africa In addition to the ancient back-migration bringing R1*-M173 and mtDNA haplogroups U6 and H into Africa, there appears to be another event during the Paleolithic which brought Eurasians into Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 74:532-544, 2004 "K2-M70 is believed to have originated in Asia after the emergence of the K-M9 polymorphism (45–30 ky) (Underhill et al. 2001a). As deduced from the collective data (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002; present study), K2-M70 individuals, at some later point, proceeded south to Africa. These chromosomes are seen in relatively high frequencies in Egypt, Oman, Tanzania, Ethiopia, and Morocco and are especially prominent in the Fulbe (18% [Scozzari et al. 1997, 1999]), the highest concentration of this haplogroup found
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 12:46:01 GMT -5
More recent studies on West Africans show connections between West Africans and East Africans including locating mtDNA M1 in West Africa. Dienekes Blog again: dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/archives/000620.htmlWest African Guinean mtDNA Annals of Human Genetics Volume 68 Issue 4 Page 340 - July 2004 MtDNA Profile of West Africa Guineans: Towards a Better Understanding of the Senegambia Region Alexandra Rosa et al. Summary The matrilineal genetic composition of 372 samples from the Republic of Guiné-Bissau (West African coast) was studied using RFLPs and partial sequencing of the mtDNA control and coding region. The majority of the mtDNA lineages of Guineans (94%) belong to West African specific sub-clusters of L0-L3 haplogroups. A new L3 sub-cluster (L3h) that is found in both eastern and western Africa is present at moderately low frequencies in Guinean populations. A non-random distribution of haplogroups U5 in the Fula group, the U6 among the "Brame" linguistic family and M1 in the Balanta-Djola group, suggests a correlation between the genetic and linguistic affiliation of Guinean populations. The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier suggestion of their Sudanese origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand, were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers. Particular haplotypes, found almost exclusively in East-African populations, were found in some ethnic groups with an oral tradition claiming Sudanese origin. A possible ancient migration from Asia to Africa was proposed by Cruciani et al. (2002) to explain the presence of some unusual Y-chromosome lineages identified in West Africa. Haplogroup R1 (defined by M173 mutation), without further branch defining mutations (M269 and M17) specific to Europeans, accounted for ~40% of the Y-chromosomes in North-Cameroon, while not yet having been sampled elsewhere in Africa. More data from Central and Western Africa are needed to cast light on the origin of such idiosyncratic mtDNA and Y chromosome lineages. Thus, our U5 sequences from the Guinean Fulbe people corroborate Cruciani's hypothesis of a prehistoric migration from Eurasia to West Sub-Saharan Africa, testified by their present day restricted and localised distribution. Link
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Post by shango on Mar 12, 2005 12:52:18 GMT -5
Now, let's look at the religion of the Mandingoes: Their main god Faro is a god who is castrated and becomes the Riger Niger. it parallels what happens to Osiris by Set in Kemet where Osiris is worshipped as the Nile.
And of course, the name Faro should be familiar.
Back to Genetics, i have more DNA reports on Africa than Dienekes. What he is missing is a report on U6 in West Africa showing the prescence of that Haplogroup in the Songhai, Tuareg, Mandeka, Wolof and other West African tribes. if you would bother to read carefully the folktales of these African groups, you'd see a clear heavy interaction with Tuaregs, if not other Berbers. practically 1/3 of men in Mali are E3b.
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Post by topdog on Mar 12, 2005 12:55:52 GMT -5
Their was no Nubian Empire,it was a Kingdom. It was first started by the Egyptians btw.(?) Prehistoric Nubia
7000 B.C.-3100 B.C.Near modern-day Khartoum is the oldest known record of settled African civilization. This civilization, called Khartoum Mesolithic culture (c 7000 B.C.), is noted for its settled way of life and pottery production that seemingly preceded agriculture, unlike development in early Near Eastern cultures. These early Nubians subsisted on hunting and fishing, but their remarkably sophisticated ceramics are among the oldest known. Fashioned from low-fired Nile mud and decorated with ompressed dots and wavy lines, this pottery dispersed throughout the African continent and remained unchanged for thousands of years. The earliest evidence from Egyptian civilization shows strong affinity with Khartoum Mesolithic (c. 6000 B.C.). Later (c. 4000-3500 B.C.) Predynastic Upper Egyptian and Lower Nubian materials are strikingly similar. Human figurines, cosmetic palettes, and black-topped red pottery were common to both cultures.The A-Group 3100 B.C.-2800 B.C.A-Group, Lower Nubia's earliest civilization, appeared around 3100 B.C., immediately preceding Egypt's unification. Although finely painted ceramics imitating basketry and a spectacular mace head with a gold handle were excavated from A-Group graves, this civilization was dismissed as a chiefdom of nomadic cattle herders.
Qustul's royal burial ground was excavated by the University of chicago's expedition in the 1960s, and the large, rich graves of local kings were revealed. These contained Egyptian imports as well as local artifacts. Despite theories that Qustul's kingdom preceded the early Egyptian proto-states found at Nubt-Naqada and Nekhen-Hierakonpolis, all these states probably developed simultaneously, some with contacts with Syria Amuq Valley Mesopotamian civilization. An Outline of Nubian HistoryPeter Lacovara Assistant Curator of Egyptian, Nubian and Near Eastern Art Museum of Fine Arts, BostonCited from Egypt in AfricaTheodore Celenko p. 92
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