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Post by mike2 on Feb 23, 2005 21:13:43 GMT -5
You're right. Because I have a habit of considering Egypt a part of North Africa, I forgot it is also considered part of the Middle East. To clarify "Middle Eastern," I was referring to the Arab conquest which lent Semitic blood to the Egyptian gene pool (though I have no idea how much Arab blood, I agree with you in doubting it was strong enough to alter the racial character of the population significantly). And, yeah, by Congoid I was referring to the modern Nubian elements spread throughout the country (though most prevalent in Upper Egypt, of course). By the way, do the Nubians living in Egypt consider themselves Egyptian (not necessarily racially, just in a general sense) or do they tend to keep a black African identity? And by European I was referring to the Greek element, which is weak. Greeks do not generally look like Egyptians.
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Post by alexandrian on Feb 23, 2005 22:24:13 GMT -5
You're right. Because I have a habit of considering Egypt a part of North Africa, I forgot it is also considered part of the Middle East. To clarify "Middle Eastern," I was referring to the Arab conquest which lent Semitic blood to the Egyptian gene pool (though I have no idea how much Arab blood, I agree with you in doubting it was strong enough to alter the racial character of the population significantly). And, yeah, by Congoid I was referring to the modern Nubian elements spread throughout the country (though most prevalent in Upper Egypt, of course). By the way, do the Nubians living in Egypt consider themselves Egyptian (not necessarily racially, just in a general sense) or do they tend to keep a black African identity? And by European I was referring to the Greek element, which is weak. Greeks do not generally look like Egyptians. If you meant Semitic, I understand now. Though Egyptians do not stand out much in most parts of the Middle East. Your average American would not be able to tell the difference between a Morroccan, an Egyptian, an Iraqi, and a Saudi. I'd say Nubians in Egypt consider themselves Egyptian. They speak Arabic and most are Muslim so they don't stand out in those aspects. Moreover, they've lived in Egypt for a while and are Egyptian citizens. Some Nubians who live in big cities like Aswan, Kom Ombo, Cairo, and Alexandria mingly often with Egyptians, have Egyptian friends, and in some instances have Egyptian wives. Nubians are noted for their trustworthiness. Sudanese refugees in Egypt have no Egyptian identity and are very much stand outs. They retain their Sudanese Black heritage, but most were not born in egypt, and god willing, most will not stay long either. The Greek input is stronger than the Arab input in general. There were numerous influxes of Greek migration to Egypt. One was when they established a trading colony in northern Egypt, then came Ptolemaic Egypt, more came during Christian rule, and the last influx occurred in the nineteenth-century. In the early twentieth century there were Greek farmers in Egypt as far south as Aswan. Although generally Greeks and Egyptians are quite easy to tell apart, there are numerous Egyptians who wouldn't turn heads in Greece. People guess I'm Greek more times than they guess I'm Arab, and if you look at Gamal Mubarak, some Coptic Orthodox priests and monks, some prominent businessmen, actors and some government ministers, I don't think they'd turn many heads in Greece.
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Post by Shenuda on Feb 24, 2005 3:21:49 GMT -5
Sudanese refugees in Egypt have no Egyptian identity and are very much stand outs. They retain their Sudanese Black heritage, but most were not born in egypt, and god willing, most will not stay long either. Don´t forgett that there is a difference between Northern arabic muslim Sudanese and Southerners. Northern Sudanese don't stand out so much in Egypt as their Southern compatriots. Some Northern Sudanese can even pass for Upper Egyptians. Also their dialect is very close to Egyptian Arabic. These Northern Sudanese wouldn´t stand out much in Qena or Luxor:
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 25, 2005 23:45:01 GMT -5
They look like a step-up from ethiopians, following a clinal pattern that eventually moves into a more middle-eastern phenotype. Like I have continually been saying , the ancient egyptians are and always were an intermediate people . Not clearly black or white, but according to the one-drop rule they would be considered "black" in America. Like many light-skinned, wavvy-haired, straight-nosed, african-americans, puerto-ricans, or brazillians.
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Post by mike2 on Feb 26, 2005 0:33:16 GMT -5
So, Kame, basically your position is that the Egyptians were Aethiopids like the Somalis? That's an opinion I disagree with but can definitely respect because at least it's possible.
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Post by alexandrian on Feb 26, 2005 1:35:08 GMT -5
They look like a step-up from ethiopians, following a clinal pattern that eventually moves into a more middle-eastern phenotype. Like I have continually been saying , the ancient egyptians are and always were an intermediate people . Not clearly black or white, but according to the one-drop rule they would be considered "black" in America. Like many light-skinned, wavvy-haired, straight-nosed, african-americans, puerto-ricans, or brazillians. and like many dark-skinned, straight-nosed, wavy-haired Arabs and Middle Easternes. In terms of facial features, the Egyptians portrayed their facial features in reliefs as most closely matching with those of the Libyans. Egyptians most certainly were not Ethiopians. They completely distinguished themselves from Ethiopians and all ancient references show that the Egyptians were lighter than the Ethiopians and had straighter hair, as I've shown. I don't think any of the people psoted by Shenuda, with the possible exception of the black-skinned old man, would stand out in North Africa or the Middle East (outside of the Levant). This kid in particular caught my eye: Look at the kid on the right. His hair is very light brown, if he was an upperclass kid who didn't spend as much time indoors, he wouldn't have such a tan. He looks like a quintessential Caucasian. If you take out his tan, he would look very Mediterranean.... Almost all of the above people, except for two of the pictures, would stand out in Ethiopia and Sudan as foreigners or Arabs. I'm not gonna post each one and make a comment on them though because that gets boring and repetitive. These people certainly have more Caucasian blood than Negroid blood and certainly are much closer to West Asian types than East African types... Most of them wouldn't be considered African-American in America either...they'd probably get grouped with other Arabs, just like Egyptian-Americans are today. The fact of the matter is Americans can easily distinguish between an Egyptian and EThiopian, whereas they have harder times dsitinguishing between an Egyptian, a Morroccan, a Saudi, and an Iraqi. In America, Egyptians and Persians get confused for each other a lot, at least based on what I've seen personally...
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 26, 2005 2:04:05 GMT -5
WTH is an "aethiopid"? I hate terms like that, just use east-african or something.
If you mean exactly like the somalis or ethiopians, no. What I said is "black" people as we know them, follow a clinal pattern, eventually moving into middle-eastern phenotypes. In other words, as you move further and further into north-eastern africa and into the sinai penninsula you begin to see more west-asian looking people, with traits becoming more solidified, not like the "fuzzy looking" (as I call them) egyptians.
Middle-easterners are fairly closely related to SSA because the gene flow was good and due to geographical proximity (in relation to migrations). The irony is that melanesians look the most like blacks, but are the furthest genetically from them because they left africa 70,000 years ago and received little or no outside gene flow since settling in the pacific region. Europeans and ME's to SSA's are like night and day, but are more related to each other than melanesians or native australians.
I can easily tell if someone is african-looking or has african ancestry. Even though they are west-asian looking they have many "black" (for lack of a better word) traits. Alexandrian, ofcourse will deny this till the cows come home, but it is in plain sight, and anyone who's seen brazilians, puerto ricans or cubans will know what I talking about.
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Post by alexandrian on Feb 26, 2005 2:13:02 GMT -5
WTH is an "aethiopid"? I hate terms like that, just use east-african or something. If you mean exactly like the somalis or ethiopians, no. What I said is "black" people as we know them, follow a clinal pattern, eventually moving into middle-eastern phenotypes. In other words, as you move further and further into north-eastern africa and into the sinai penninsula you begin to see more west-asian looking people, with traits becoming more solidified, not like the "fuzzy looking" (as I call them) egyptians. Middle-easterners are fairly closely related to SSA because the gene flow was good and due to geographical proximity (in relation to migrations). The irony is that melanesians look the most like blacks, but are the furthest genetically from them because they left africa 70,000 years ago and received little or no outside gene flow since settling in the pacific region. Europeans and ME's to SSA's are like night and day, but are more related to each other than melanesians or native australians. I can easily tell if someone is african-looking or has african ancestry. Even though they are west-asian looking they have many "black" (for lack of a better word) traits. Alexandrian, ofcourse will deny this till the cows come home, but it is in plain sight, and anyone who's seen brazilians, puerto ricans or cubans will know what I talking about. I don't see noticeable black features on many of the pictures. Egyptians are not "fuzzy" that makes them sound like their on the border between Middle easterners and East africans. That is so far from the truth. Egyptians are closer to Europeans than sub-Saharahn AFricans, in the Hosch study egyptians were the closest to Euros of the five North African groups, and we know that Egyptians group with WEst Asians in terms of genetics. Egyptians do not stand out in the Middle East. That fact is universal. The fact of the matter is that middle Easterners are generally a dark-skinned people, even Persians. A lot of reddish brown Egyptians I know get confused for Persians in Persian restaurants. Very few people can, on the outset, tell the difference between Egyptians and other Middle Easterners. It is much easier for a layperson to distinguish between Egyptians/Middle Easterners and East Africans, they're not as closely related as you'd think. I know a lot of Egyptians in the States, and not one, I repeat, not one, has ever been confused for an East African. Most get frequently confused for other Middle Eastern groups. I can't reiterate this enough, and it's not just directed at Kame, Egyptians are not that different from other Middle Easterners, there is very little physical difference between the two groups. I'm not gonna turn this into a picture war (a la shenuda) but to me, this isnt even questionable.
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 26, 2005 2:30:18 GMT -5
They don't have to be "super negro" features, just little subtle consistencies with the traits generally found in many tropical africans and mixed groups. And I think we might have to make this a picture war alexandrian ;D
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Post by alexandrian on Feb 26, 2005 2:32:55 GMT -5
I think we might have to make this a picture war alexandrian ;D With pleasure...but it'll have to wait a day or two...
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 26, 2005 3:17:56 GMT -5
There is no time delay with me, this is business ;D egyptian kids Jason kidd (black/white) notice the same sort of milky complexion, very common is mulattos recent euro-admixed blacks. brazilian children egyptian children traces of blond can be found fairly commonly among mulattoes and many mixed brazilians in general, as in the egyptian child on the right. Notice the same brownish-pumpkin complexion. Brazilians are an interesting people. Very beautiful and phenotypically varied. I've seen mulattoes with straight, blond hair but more african features as well as the opposite. As any american or african-american and I will guarantee they would say that most of those people look intermediate, mixed or have disatant african ancestry. I can tell by their hair and other subtle features that they are of genuine partial african heritage. The race "classifiers" would probably give you the same rap as well.
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Post by Shenuda on Feb 26, 2005 4:05:57 GMT -5
This discussion is very funny ;D Continue please But there is still a question: Why are you Americans (Alexandrian & Kame) so concerned about race of Ancient Egyptians???
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Kame
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Post by Kame on Feb 26, 2005 4:18:14 GMT -5
Ummmmm is'nt that what this forum is for? I've seen people here argue over whether euroepans should be further diversified in to various sub-races and other useless stuff. It's just stuff that folks do here.
Anwways i think the race of the ancient egyptians as a topic will never go out of style. People debate it endlessly. Why can't we just come to middle ground? Obviously both sides have valid points.
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Post by Shenuda on Feb 26, 2005 4:30:07 GMT -5
Ummmmm is'nt that what this forum is for? I've seen people here argue over whether euroepans should be further diversified in to various sub-races and other useless stuff. It's just stuff that folks do here. Anwways i think the race of the ancient egyptians as a topic will never go out of style. People debate it endlessly. Why can't we just come to middle ground? Obviously both sides have valid points. I noticed that the people who argue about it are usually Americans, especially African-Americans but not only them. Egyptians (except americanised ones like Alexandrian)would never argue about it so much. For us it´s meaningless. Egyptians are mostly mediterrean caucasoids with substantial negroid admixture in the South, and Ancient Egyptians were too. Please A. and K. accept it and stop this kalam fadi. But post any nice picks!!! ;D Picks without comments it will be the best discussion.
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Post by mike2 on Feb 26, 2005 14:26:06 GMT -5
Hey, I'm just happy that nobody is claiming Egyptians are West African Negroes. A mulatto or East African vs. dark Caucasian argument is much better.
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