|
Post by captainusa1 on Jun 23, 2004 0:00:36 GMT -5
Actually, lists of names don't exactly support what you say. And the way you attempt to support your position is highly questionable. First off, you arbitrarily cut off Southern Europe from Western Europe. Secondly, while cutting off Southern Europe, you add the Jews (who are mostly of a "Medish" or Armenoid phenotype) as a part of Western Europe. Lists of inventions and discoveries put Italy (even controlling for population) far above most Northern European countries, and France (which is not Nordic, and indeed has a high proportion of Meds and even more Alpines) as well. And this is only the small period in history from the Industrial Revolution to now. One cannot seriously entertain that Norway, Sweden and Finland have played a greater role, even controlling for populations, than Italy. Yes, Southern Italians may differ from Northern Italians, but Northern Italians are not Nordic -- nor are they exactly Central European in general. Yet it is these Scandinavian countries that are Nordic or mostly Nordic (although Finland might lean a little more toward East Baltic, which is still plenty Nordic). Mind you, as a person of largely Spanish descent I don't care to take the accomplishments away from Italians or Greeks (especially since many Italians and even more Greeks strike me as foreign-looking), but it remains a fact that if you take away Germany and Britain from Europe, Italy and France have contributed far more to Western civilization in the modern period than all other Northern European nations combined. Statistically, the Spanish are not up there in inventions, although they do have very prominent men on lists (as noted by Mynydd), but they more than make up for it in their art and architecture, which far surpasses much that is seen in Northern Europe and is recognized by lists which favor Northern Europeans due to cultural bias. In fact, the best museum in the South of the United States is not even of an American -- it is a Spaniard (Dali)! And that museum doesn't even have his best works. America simply does not have the art and architecture, nor the richness of culture, that the Spanish have. Some comparisons are simply apples and oranges. Still, it remains a fact that Northern Europe has done a lot in modern times, and shamefully those chest-beating about these accomplishments online tend to be among the worst elements. By the way, the American philosopher who wrote the best prose was a Spanish-American -- George Santayana. Again, I'm not referring to just Scandinavian countries. I'm referring to the countries that comprise the region that is considered by most people to be Western Europe. Most people are talking about the British Isles, France, Germany etc. when they mention Western Europe. My definition of Western Europe is not questionable. It is based on the generally accepted idea of what countries comprise that region. I also stand by what I said about the lists of discoveries and inventions. They are dominated by Americans of Western European descent and Western Europeans, not Italians. The Italians have contributed a lot, though. I put Jews of Western European descent in this category because their families have lived in Western Europe for centuries. It was the anti-Semites who tried to make it otherwise. As for Santayana, you're entitled to your opinion, but we all know that the best writers come from the USA and the British Isles. ;D
|
|
|
Post by galvez on Jun 23, 2004 0:10:51 GMT -5
Again, I'm not referring to just Scandinavian countries. I'm referring to the countries that comprise the region that is considered by most people to be Western Europe. Most people are talking about the British Isles, France, Germany etc. when they mention Western Europe. My definition of Western Europe is not questionable. It is based on the generally accepted idea of what countries comprise that region. I also stand by what I said about the lists of discoveries and inventions. They are dominated by Americans of Western European descent and Western Europeans, not Italians. The Italians have contributed a lot, though. I put Jews of Western European descent in this category because their families have lived in Western Europe for centuries. It was the anti-Semites who tried to make it otherwise. As for Santayana, you're entitled to your opinion, but we all know that the best writers come from the USA and the British Isles. ;D We don't disagree much, especially if you are going to add France (which is largely Med and Alpine) to Western Europe, and especially to make up for the relative barrenness of the (real) Nordic nations up there in Scandinavia. I do think Britain and the U.S. have been more technology-oriented. But regardless, there is absolutely nothing in the U.S. to compare to the architecture of Spain. The U.S. (and arguably Britain) have lagged in their production of visual art. By the way, it was Will Durant who claimed that Santayana was by far the best writer among America's philosophers.
|
|
|
Post by Limesucker on Jun 23, 2004 1:53:42 GMT -5
This site has a compilation of famous mathematicians from ancient history to the present day. From the stats on that site I made a ranking of European countries ordered by mathematicians born within the countries' present boundaries, per million population (I use the 2001 population figures, which of course is only rough approximation of historical population).
|
|
|
Post by Limesucker on Jun 23, 2004 1:54:54 GMT -5
-country- | -greats- | -pop. (2001)- | -ratio- | Luxembourg | 2 | 0.4 | 4.55 | UK | 260 | 58.8 | 4.42 | Switzerland | 27 | 7.2 | 3.75 | France | 211 | 59.5 | 3.55 | Austria | 28 | 8.1 | 3.46 | Denmark | 18 | 5.3 | 3.40 | Hungary | 29 | 9.9 | 2.93 | Ireland | 11 | 3.8 | 2.89 | Greece | 25 | 10.6 | 2.36 | Norway | 10 | 4.5 | 2.22 | Germany | 162 | 82.0 | 1.98 | Belgium | 19 | 10.3 | 1.84 | Poland | 68 | 38.6 | 1.76 | Italy | 101 | 57.5 | 1.76 | Latvia | 4 | 2.4 | 1.67 | Netherlands | 25 | 15.9 | 1.57 | Estonia | 2 | 1.4 | 1.43 | Czech Republic | 13 | 10.3 | 1.26 | Sweden | 11 | 8.8 | 1.25 | Finland | 5 | 5.2 | 0.96 | Slovakia | 5 | 5.4 | 0.93 | Belarus | 8 | 10.1 | 0.79 | Ukraine | 37 | 49.1 | 0.75 | Croatia | 3 | 4.7 | 0.64 | Russia | 81 | 144.7 | 0.56 | Lithuania | 2 | 3.7 | 0.54 | Slovenia | 1 | 2.0 | 0.50 | Turkey/Anatolia | 22 | 67.6 | 0.33 | Portugal | 3 | 10.0 | 0.30 | Spain | 11 | 39.9 | 0.28 | Moldavia | 1 | 4.4 | 0.23 | Romania | 5 | 22.4 | 0.22 | Others | 0 | | 0.00 |
|
|
|
Post by galvez on Jun 23, 2004 2:31:21 GMT -5
One drawback from these types of statistical methods is that they do not make qualitative distinctions.
Charles Murray ranked European nations in Human Accomplishment as follows (which included the arts and sciences) from 1450-1900:
1. Britain 2. France 3. Germany 4. Italy 5. Austro-Hungary 6. Russia 7. Netherlands 8. Spain 9. Belgium 10. Switzerland
The lion's share went to the top 4. Controlling for population, some interesting changes come about. Interestingly, the zone of concentration of "human accomplishment" cuts into Central Italy and even a part of Southern Italy. If he were to have gone back before 1450, nations not on the list might have made it: and still, there would be no real qualitative distinctions. For example, Aristotle may very well be equivalent to a dozen guys giving some nations a favorable spot.
Here are his rankings of Western Art:
1. Michelangelo 2. Picasso 3. Raphael 4. Leonardo 5. Titian 6. Duerer 7. Rembrandt 8. Giotto 9. Bernini 10. Cezanne 11. Rubens 12. Caravaggio 13. Velazquez 14. Donatello 15. Van Eyck 16. Goya
Of course, Charles Murray has no background in art, and thinks that he can rank people based on how much space is dedicated to them in encyclopedias. Kinda primitive if you ask me.
|
|
|
Post by geirr on Jun 23, 2004 5:24:50 GMT -5
Again, I'm not referring to just Scandinavian countries. I'm referring to the countries that comprise the region that is considered by most people to be Western Europe. Most people are talking about the British Isles, France, Germany etc. when they mention Western Europe. My definition of Western Europe is not questionable. It is based on the generally accepted idea of what countries comprise that region. I also stand by what I said about the lists of discoveries and inventions. They are dominated by Americans of Western European descent and Western Europeans, not Italians. The Italians have contributed a lot, though. I put Jews of Western European descent in this category because their families have lived in Western Europe for centuries. It was the anti-Semites who tried to make it otherwise. As for Santayana, you're entitled to your opinion, but we all know that the best writers come from the USA and the British Isles. ;D Geography is not a political science. You're giving Americans on this forum a bad name by placing Spain somewhere other than western Europe. Your argument about the modern world being an Anglo/American one is equally fanciful.
|
|
|
Post by captainusa1 on Jun 23, 2004 6:34:08 GMT -5
We don't disagree much, especially if you are going to add France (which is largely Med and Alpine) to Western Europe, and especially to make up for the relative barrenness of the (real) Nordic nations up there in Scandinavia. I do think Britain and the U.S. have been more technology-oriented. But regardless, there is absolutely nothing in the U.S. to compare to the architecture of Spain. The U.S. (and arguably Britain) have lagged in their production of visual art. By the way, it was Will Durant who claimed that Santayana was by far the best writer among America's philosophers. I agree with you to a certain extent about art. It does seem like the best artists came from France, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands. I'm not sure about the historical period after the Industrial Revolution. Spain has certainly contributed its fair share of artists. I must now give credit to the Scandinavian countries. They lead the world, including the USA, in most quality-of-life statistics. I don't favor their socialist systems and seeming abandonment of religion, but I must give credit where credit is due. BTW, your country just may have the most beautiful women in the world. As for architecture of another kind, I couldn't honestly say.
|
|
|
Post by captainusa1 on Jun 23, 2004 6:45:47 GMT -5
Geography is not a political science. You're giving Americans on this forum a bad name by placing Spain somewhere other than western Europe. Your argument about the modern world being an Anglo/American one is equally fanciful. Most people consider Spain to be a Southern European country. It should be obvious that I'm not speaking from a purely geogaphical standpoint. My argument about the modern world being a MOSTLY American/WESTERN EUROPEAN creation happens to be factual. You can like it or lump it. If what I said makes other Americans on this board look bad in your OPINION, so be it. I never really cared much for double standards and political correctness, anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Graeme on Jun 23, 2004 7:14:23 GMT -5
Cap'n you don't like people disagreeing with you. Too bad. Thomas Alva Edison was a genius? Come on, some hardworking, low intelligence deaf man, uses his businessman's brain to utilise able and intelligent people to invent his "inventions" does not make him a genius. Where would we be with Edison? Still listening to wax cylinders using trumpet-like sound amplifiers. Whoopi do. Marconi was not North American and he was a true genius. What about man on the moon? It certainly improved my life. Rockets = Werner von Braun, a Nazi arse kissing German go-getter. Unlike you, Europe to me is Europe whether Italy or Germany or even England. The division of north from south, east from west in Europe is artificial and blatantly stupid except geographically. The Black Death I mentioned did not decide to stop at Russia or Austria. As for Americans, you lot are much the same as the Japanese. Great innovators and users of other people's inventions and technology. It is both your countries' true gifts, enterprise and cut throat economics. You will do anything for that buck, that edge. All is fair in love and war, and commerce. That does not make your lot genii.
I hate to tell you, but Italy and Spain are Western Europe. European countries have been trading with each other for many centuries and whether you like it or not, these countries have been linked economically long before the EU even before Galileo. The USA is the world's biggest economy and it started, with foolish trading, the depression of the 1930s, but it has done little to contribute to world culture and betterment until very recently. Oh, yes, I can't live without Jazz, rock 'n roll, jeans, skate boards, mass drug use... Hell, yes I can!
|
|
|
Post by geirr on Jun 23, 2004 7:32:52 GMT -5
I agree with you to a certain extent about art. It does seem like the best artists came from France, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands. I'm not sure about the historical period after the Industrial Revolution. Spain has certainly contributed its fair share of artists. I must now give credit to the Scandinavian countries. They lead the world, including the USA, in most quality-of-life statistics. I don't favor their socialist systems and seeming abandonment of religion, but I must give credit where credit is due. BTW, your country just may have the most beautiful women in the world. As for architecture of another kind, I couldn't honestly say. The word modernism itself is often used to describe architecture centered around Barcelona which itself was one of the centres of Art Nouveau, the first 20th century art movement. Italy is the founder of futurism still a significant influence on modern art and design particularly in the United states. Stop making infantile quips about Southern European women and read a book.
|
|
Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
|
Post by Sandwich on Jun 23, 2004 7:56:32 GMT -5
The problem here is one of periodization. There is going to be a major correlation between scientific investigation and degree of national industrialization, just as merchant wealth and opulent display were factors in the Renaissance.
If you take Nobel prizes as an index of major contributions to the modern world, you will find that the one group who stand out are Jews. If you look at the transformation of the modern world in the 19th century, Britain and France, with their continental and intercontinental empires are hugely significant.
As Graeme has aptly pointed out, it all depends on when you date the start of the modern world. The 14th century is indeed one candidate. Personally, I think we are talking about the triumph of capitalism.
America's role in terms of really major discoveries that have changed our life has not been that significant.
What would you count as the three most significant technological changes to the reality of YOUR life of the last century? I would say antibiotics and vaccination, television and the internal combustion engine but that's just off the top of my head. (Fleming, Pasteur, Baird and Langen)
Or you could simply talk about the history of electricity - Volta, Ampere, Coulomb, Ohm, Faraday, Maxwell.
Or you could say Lavoisier and Watt.
None of that compares to the social changes that have transformed the way we live and whose origins lie in the American and French revolutions.
|
|
|
Post by captainusa1 on Jun 23, 2004 8:03:12 GMT -5
Cap'n you don't like people disagreeing with you. Too bad. Thomas Alva Edison was a genius? Come on, some hardworking, low intelligence deaf man, uses his businessman's brain to utilise able and intelligent people to invent his "inventions" does not make him a genius. Where would we be with Edison? Still listening to wax cylinders using trumpet-like sound amplifiers. Whoopi do. Marconi was not North American and he was a true genius. What about man on the moon? It certainly improved my life. Rockets = Werner von Braun, a Nazi arse kissing German go-getter. Unlike you, Europe to me is Europe whether Italy or Germany or even England. The division of north from south, east from west in Europe is artificial and blatantly stupid except geographically. The Black Death I mentioned did not decide to stop at Russia or Austria. As for Americans, you lot are much the same as the Japanese. Great innovators and users of other people's inventions and technology. It is both your countries' true gifts, enterprise and cut throat economics. You will do anything for that buck, that edge. All is fair in love and war, and commerce. That does not make your lot genii. I hate to tell you, but Italy and Spain are Western Europe. European countries have been trading with each other for many centuries and whether you like it or not, these countries have been linked economically long before the EU even before Galileo. The USA is the world's biggest economy and it started, with foolish trading, the depression of the 1930s, but it has done little to contribute to world culture and betterment until very recently. Oh, yes, I can't live without Jazz, rock 'n roll, jeans, skate boards, mass drug use... Hell, yes I can! I don't mind it when people disagree with me. However, when they resort to sarcastic nonsense in lieu of solid evidence to refute what I said, I consider that to be an obvious sign that they can't disprove what I said with facts. Your post was a case in point. Educate yourself on the ways in which Americans and Northwestern Europeans (for the literal-minded) changed the world since the Industrial Revolution. Of course, we know that you'd rather chop off your devil-tail than to give them any credit for their obvious achievements. Keep up the rhetoric. I'll stick to reality
|
|
|
Post by captainusa1 on Jun 23, 2004 8:10:50 GMT -5
The word modernism itself is often used to describe architecture centered around Barcelona which itself was one of the centres of Art Nouveau, the first 20th century art movement. Italy is the founder of futurism still a significant influence on modern art and design particularly in the United states. Stop making infantile quips about Southern European women and read a book. I've read enough books to know what I say is true. I also have enough common sense to recognize obvious insecurity when I see it. Some of you guys are as insecure as the Nords you mock. BTW, I'll make any quips about attractive women that I darn well please. Comprende?
|
|
|
Post by captainusa1 on Jun 23, 2004 8:18:10 GMT -5
The problem here is one of periodization. There is going to be a major correlation between scientific investigation and degree of national industrialization, just as merchant wealth and opulent display were factors in the Renaissance. If you take Nobel prizes as an index of major contributions to the modern world, you will find that the one group who stand out are Jews. If you look at the transformation of the modern world in the 19th century, Britain and France, with their continental and intercontinental empires are hugely significant. As Graeme has aptly pointed out, it all depends on when you date the start of the modern world. The 14th century is indeed one candidate. Personally, I think we are talking about the triumph of capitalism. America's role in terms of really major discoveries that have changed our life has not been that significant. What would you count as the three most significant technological changes to the reality of YOUR life of the last century? I would say antibiotics and vaccination, television and the internal combustion engine but that's just off the top of my head. (Fleming, Pasteur, Baird and Langen) Or you could simply talk about the history of electricity - Volta, Ampere, Ohm, Faraday, Maxell. Or you could say Lavoissier and Watt. None of that compares to the social changes that have transformed the way we live and whose origins lie in the American and French revolutions. I'm specifically referring to the USA and Northwestern European countries after the Industrial Revolution. Everyone tries to change those specific parameters in order to change the subject, or so it seems.
|
|
|
Post by captainusa1 on Jun 23, 2004 8:22:02 GMT -5
-country- | -greats- | -pop. (2001)- | -ratio- | Luxembourg | 2 | 0.4 | 4.55 | UK | 260 | 58.8 | 4.42 | Switzerland | 27 | 7.2 | 3.75 | France | 211 | 59.5 | 3.55 | Austria | 28 | 8.1 | 3.46 | Denmark | 18 | 5.3 | 3.40 | Hungary | 29 | 9.9 | 2.93 | Ireland | 11 | 3.8 | 2.89 | Greece | 25 | 10.6 | 2.36 | Norway | 10 | 4.5 | 2.22 | Germany | 162 | 82.0 | 1.98 | Belgium | 19 | 10.3 | 1.84 | Poland | 68 | 38.6 | 1.76 | Italy | 101 | 57.5 | 1.76 | Latvia | 4 | 2.4 | 1.67 | Netherlands | 25 | 15.9 | 1.57 | Estonia | 2 | 1.4 | 1.43 | Czech Republic | 13 | 10.3 | 1.26 | Sweden | 11 | 8.8 | 1.25 | Finland | 5 | 5.2 | 0.96 | Slovakia | 5 | 5.4 | 0.93 | Belarus | 8 | 10.1 | 0.79 | Ukraine | 37 | 49.1 | 0.75 | Croatia | 3 | 4.7 | 0.64 | Russia | 81 | 144.7 | 0.56 | Lithuania | 2 | 3.7 | 0.54 | Slovenia | 1 | 2.0 | 0.50 | Turkey/Anatolia | 22 | 67.6 | 0.33 | Portugal | 3 | 10.0 | 0.30 | Spain | 11 | 39.9 | 0.28 | Moldavia | 1 | 4.4 | 0.23 | Romania | 5 | 22.4 | 0.22 | Others | 0 | | 0.00 |
Ten of the top twelve countries are from the region to which I was referring. Imagine that.
|
|