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Post by alexandrian on May 17, 2005 17:04:13 GMT -5
Afrocentrists always critique Coon and consider him inaccurate and biased. WE all know that that is gonna change now.
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Post by mike2 on May 17, 2005 18:13:43 GMT -5
Assuming that the Badarian is a Negroid type, Coon was perhaps right when he said the racial history of Egypt is largely the replacement of the Upper Egyptian type by the Lower Egyptian one.
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Post by Crimson Guard on May 17, 2005 20:42:08 GMT -5
Was not!
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 17, 2005 20:48:22 GMT -5
human, most early anthropologist saw the founders of ancient Egyptian civlization was the Beja people in modern day Eastern Sudan and the Red Sea hills.
However, I tend to see cultural elements in ancient Egyptian civlization that is more like the modern southern Sudanese and even some Western Africans.
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Post by alexandrian on May 17, 2005 20:54:49 GMT -5
human, most early anthropologist saw the founders of ancient Egyptian civlization was the Beja people in modern day Eastern Sudan and the Red Sea hills. Are you sure about that? However, I tend to see cultural elements in ancient Egyptian civlization that is more like the modern southern Sudanese and even some Western Africans. HAHAHA....and what were those "common elements"... The fact that you think the AEs were related to southern Sudanese or WEst Africans is proof of your insane biases
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Post by Crimson Guard on May 17, 2005 21:01:58 GMT -5
Christ this AE crap still continues on ,its like the energizer battery....It keeps going and going and going!
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Post by alexandrian on May 17, 2005 21:05:11 GMT -5
Christ this AE crap still continues on ,its like the energizer battery....It keeps going and going and going! That's what happens when people feel history-deprived- they feel the need to take on the role of someone else's ethnicity so they become obsessive-complusive about it. I find modern Egyptian history more interesting than ancient Egyptian history.
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 17, 2005 21:29:40 GMT -5
Yes,
FROMENT, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l?Égypte ancienne: l?apport de l?anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98. (fig., tables).
The origin of the Ancient Egyptians has long been a subject of interest for physical anthropologists. Aside from some fanciful theories, a general consensus used to present them as Mediterranean, or "leucoderm Africans with a Hamitic background". However, some African nationalists, like Diop, whose theories now have a large scholarly audience, challenged this opinion. Using linguistic and cultural criteria, studies of paintings and carvings, and texts from Antiquity, he tried to demonstrate that the Ancient Egyptians were Black. Besides this typological, or raciological view, a more biologically acceptable, non-racial approach considers human variation as a clinal, environmental adaptation. Numerical computations are possible from cranial, or cephalic measurements, which enable populations to be compared by discriminant analysis. Such an analysis was carried out on a set of 384 skull samples from Egypt, Nubia, India, Maghreb, Europe and Subsaharan Africa. Two very discriminant measurements showed a strong correlation with the axes: nose breadth and bizygomatic breadth. This representation of population distribution maps very closely onto their geographic location: on average, the Ancient Egyptian people is morphologically equidistant from Europe and Africa. Nile Valley inhabitants display a wide range of variation, as a consequence of a long process of mixing. Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations. Abridged author?s summary
The physical types found in pre-dynastic and early dynastic burials are remarkably consistent, and show that the ancient Egyptian cultivators were of a short and rather lightly built race indistinguishable from the modern Beja of the Red Sea hills or from the Danakil and Somali of the Horn of Africa
A Short History of Africa Roland Oliver and J.D. Fage pg 13
Culturally, the ancient Egyptians were very much related to the southern Sudanese and some Western African groups. This was pointed out by early Egyptologist such concepts as divine kingship and ancestor veneration.
The early remaines at Nabta Playa show a people that were culturally like Pastorialists.
See the following:
The rainmaker king is one of those concepts
But although the purely archeological evidence might appear to demonstrate a parallel development in the two areas,we know that in fact this,though superfically existing in material culture,was not the product of indentical societies,nor was it leading to such state of affairs. In Mesopotamiathe beginnings of little independent city- states under tutelary gods,rulers,councils and assemblies are perceptible,though later to be submerged in a familar patter of oriental despotism,but in Egypt from the beginning we are able to glimpse that essentially African figure,the omnipotent,rainmaking,god- king]'The perhistoric cheiftain,a rainmaker and medicine-man,with magic power over the weather and therefore able to keep his people in health and prosperity' becomes with the founding of the first ,'the Pharoah ,a divine king being in command over the Nile and able to substain and protect the notion'
page 9
Cyril Aldred Egypt to the End of the Old Kingdom
following text taken from The Dawn of Civlization by Professor Stuart Piggott.
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Post by alexandrian on May 17, 2005 21:33:24 GMT -5
a. Your first point about Beja Egyptians is in the opinion of one man. Most studies conducted on the Egyptian populations have found them to be overwhelmingly Caucasian. Period. Some connections to East Africa have been found, but absolutely none to West Africa. Egyptians are still an overwhelmingly Caucasian group.
b. Ancestor worship and divine kingship were hallmarks of almost every society. The Mayans/Aztecs had that and so did the Chinese. The Egyptians were neither Mongoloid nor Amerindian. Though Mongoloid Egyptians makes more sense than Negroid ones...
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Post by mike2 on May 17, 2005 21:34:57 GMT -5
Do you think the Badarians of predynastic Upper Egypt were Caucasian, too, Alex?
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Post by alexandrian on May 17, 2005 21:36:56 GMT -5
Do you think the Badarians of predynastic Upper Egypt were Caucasian, too, Alex? I don't know and quite frankly I don't care. Ancient Egypt was a dynastic civlization, what was there before, I can't say I care for.
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Post by alexandrian on May 17, 2005 21:49:14 GMT -5
I wouldn't say overwhelming... perhaps by a slight margin. Just reading between the lines of what Coon said... He was saying that it wasn't a black and white change but more grey, like how the cranial vault didn't change. A lot of them probably looked like Hollywood mullato or East Africans. A lot of them will crania-wise be "Caucasian". Just be looking at depictions of themselves, and it's clear they were able to represent themselves accurately. They didn't even draw themselves the same as they did with Middle Easterners or North Africans. It's possible that people were always coming in from the Middle East as part of neolithic expansion and as part of immigration. Historic movements during Greco-Roman times is well documented and afterwards. Coon clearly classified the Egyptians as a Caucasian people. The example you cited is solely limited to Badarians. Furthermore, Egyptians saw themselves as very distinct from SSAs. They most likely looked like the average modern Egyptian- who, as we know- is Caucasian.
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 17, 2005 21:49:53 GMT -5
Most studies you cite are genetic studies done on modern Lower Egyptians. Lower Egyptians are not pristine examples of dyanstic Egyptians or pre-dyanstic Egyptians.
We are talking about pre-dyanstic Egypt that formed the dyanstic civlization. Not modern genetic studies which only tells us what the modern Egyptian population is like.
Most early anthropologist considered people like the Beja to be caucasians as they did with people from the Horn of Africa.
You glossed over what I said about the concept of the rainmaker king and divine kingship. The concept of the rainmaker king is only found amongst Africans,and not amongst any of the groups you assert.
A more recent Egyptologist named Nicolas Grimal found similarities between the Dogon and ancient Egyptians:
The Parisian historian Nicolas Grimal has pointed out to a number of correspondence between Egyptian and African religious ideas:the famous Egyptian jackal-god Anubis resembles a jackal who bestows divine girfts upon humans in the myths of the Dogon people of Mali; both the Egyptian and the Dogon see universe as being formed by eight original gods; the Egyptian ram god Amun,crowned with a solar disc, is like an African celestial ram,crowned with a gourd;Osiris is like the Dogon spirit called :Lebe who imminent resurrection is proclaimed by emerging millet; and both Egyptian and African belief the individual has both a soul and a vital force or essence.[15]
Girmal's work also useful when he analyses the form of the ordinary Egyptian house, which was divided into two parts, one consisting of reception-rooms for welcoming guests, the other of private rooms for living and cooking. The first part itself divided into two rooms,one used by women for the cult of the household gods, the other used for entertaining vistors.[16] We shall find similar, though by no means identical twofold divisions in houses in North Africa, and also in Ethiopia.
Further African elements in Egyptian civlization have been noted by the British writer Michael Rice, in particular the dualisation of all the state's institutions[notably in the idea of the king's placenta, seen as his twin.[17] The German Egyptologist Eberhand Otto has argued that the Egyptian veneration of stones,pillars,animals and insects is African, while the anthropomorphic aspects of Egyptian religion are Semetic.[18] It is tobe observed that, even if matrilineal succession did not exist among the Egyptian population as a whole, in the royal family succession was through the king's principal wife, and she was usually his predecessor's daughter---and thus his own sister.[19]
15. Nicolas Grimal , A History of Ancinet Egypt,tr. Ian Shaw[Oxford Blackwell,1992] pg. 45
16.Ibid,pg 280 280-2
17. Michael Rice , Egypt's Making: The Origin of Ancient Egypt,5000-2000 BC[London:routledge,1990],pp 25 and 110-11
18. Eberhand Otto ,'Ein Beitrag zur Deutung der aegyptischen Vor-und Frugeschichte',Die Welt des Orients 1[1952] 431-53
19. David, The Ancient Egyptians,pg 18
page 50
Black God
Julian Baldwick .
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Baladi
Junior Member
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Post by Baladi on May 17, 2005 21:53:13 GMT -5
Coon also classified Nilotic groups like the Massai as hybrids. He considered people like the Beja to be caucasians also.
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Baladi
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by Baladi on May 17, 2005 22:02:46 GMT -5
Human, this is true but understand that the ancestors of the Dogon most likely came from the Central and southern Sahara. The Sahara desert was not always as dry as it once was today. pre-dyanstic Egypt did have a relationship with the Eastern and Central Sahara.
The point is that many concepts within ancient Egypt were African. Early and contemporary Egyptologist have pointed this out. The rainmaker king is one such example.
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