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Post by alexandrian on May 17, 2005 22:26:27 GMT -5
Human, this is true but understand that the ancestors of the Dogon most likely came from the Central and southern Sahara. The Sahara desert was not always as dry as it once was today. pre-dyanstic Egypt did have a relationship with the Eastern and Central Sahara. The point is that many concepts within ancient Egypt were African. Early and contemporary Egyptologist have pointed this out. The rainmaker king is one such example. Most of the examples you cite can be applied to a multitude of civilizatons, whether it be a rainmaker king, a similar way of seeing creation, divine kingship (just about every civilization had it), or ancestor worship. Your "connections" are truly and honestly laughable. The Egyptians only had consistent communication with one African group- the Nubians, outside of their realm, all their most important correspondances, allies, and political rivals were of the Middle East or Eastern Mediterranean. As for you claiming all the studies I've cited are done on modern Lower Egyptians, how do you know they're Lower Egyptians? I'd like to remind you that over 70% of Egyptians live in what you refer to as Lower Egypt. Statistically, very few Egyptians live in that Upper Egypt corridor between Luxor and Aswan. Aswanis and whoever comes south of them aren't even Egyptian because they were considered part of Nubia by the ancient Egyptians. Scientists at the University of Cairo tested DNA from the remains of pyramid workers from 2600 BC, and found that the DNA of ancient Egyptians matches that of modern Egyptians. That is, the people living in Egypt now are essentially the same as the people living there thousands of years ago. (Read an excerpt from PBS's Secrets of the Pharaohs) Borgognini-Tarli and G. Paoli, 1982. The ABO blood type frequencies of ancient Egyptians showed no signs of differing significantly from that of present-day Egyptians. According to the authors, "the blood-group distribution obtained for Asiut, Gebelen and Aswan necropoles shows resemblances with the present leucoderm population of Egypt and particularly with its more 'conservative' fraction (the Copts, MOURANT et al., 1976)." Numerous mummies with hair still attached to the skulls show that straight, wavy, or lightly curled hair types were common in ancient Egypt. For example, in a study (Titlbachova and Titlbach, 1977) involving detailed microscopic investigation of hair samples taken from several ancient Egyptian mummies, most were determined to have been naturally straight, wavy, or gently curled, with a roundish cross-section typical of modern Eurasian and North African peoples. Only a minority showed evidence of structural characteristics traditionally called "Negroid"; even in these the "Negroid" elements were weakly manifested. Positions as plotted by Brace: Skeletal remains of the 26th to 30th dynasties in Giza, as per WW Howell's data- photos1.blogger.com/img/298/2598/1024/craniometric1024.jpgZero E(xE3b) (Negroid) genes were found in either the Upper or Lower Egyptians sampled Plus, if we look at the three only recontrustioncs to be done with the support and consent of the SCA, and thus the only three accurate and quality-ensured reconstructions (King Tut, King Ramses II, Amun-her Khepeshef) we see Caucasians, not Ethopids, not intermediates, and certainly not West African Negroes. More specifically, Middle eastern-looking Caucasians who would not look out of place at all in modern Egypt. I can just imagine Ramses II sitting at a streetside ahwa sipping some shisha in Cairo, in the token gallabiya of course. www.geocities.com/dienekes_dodona/E3b/index.html
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 17, 2005 23:17:23 GMT -5
No, the rainmaker king is exclusive to North-eastern Africans. Another African trait that the Dyanstic Egyptians had was the circumcision rites. Yes, I realize that other people such as Semites had this but only Africans circumcize their youth as a coming-of-age ritual.
The following still occurs in rural parts of Egypt.
Because most of the genetic samples come from Lower Egypt. The studies say so themselves. Very few samples come from people living in villages in Upper Egypt.
Yes, I realize that most people live in Lower Egypt,but this is also the same area where the most foreign gene flow has occured.
Aswan was the first nome of Upper Egypt. It was called Ta-seti but it was still apart of the ancient Egyptian nome system.
During the dyanstic period Luxor-Aswan is where most of the Upper Egyptian population was.
The population in Lower Egypt from from Faiyum to the Delta.
Problem with this study is it was never published in a peer reviewed journal. The question is what Egyptian population was tested in this study. Do you know?
Relatively few ancient remains have been tested. Pre-dyanstic Egyptian remains will tell us more about the ancient Egyptians than some testing around the Great Pyramid.
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 17, 2005 23:18:10 GMT -5
The same authors you cite also tested the remains and found affinities with the modern day Haratin in Algeria:
ABO typing of Dyanstic Egyptian skeletal reamains showed remarkable difficulties. Satisfying results howver been obtained performing the test with aqueous extracts of the bone powder previously washed with 90 % phenol/water. With this technique 220 right femora have been tested,but only 160 of them [73%] gave rise to a definitie result. Furthermore,some biochemical analyses of the same extracts used for ABO typing have been carried out ,namely organic nitrogen dosage and protein estimation. It results that the immunological reaction is helped by an optimal amount of these substances,but both excessively high or low content of nitrogen and= proteins can interfere with HI reaction.
The genic frequencies calculated on the basis of the phenotypical distribution are the following ones:p=34&35;q=21*45;r=44*20. Similar frequencies can be found,among the living populations of Northern Africa,in the Algerian Haratin. This resemblence ,however,remains unexplained
G.Paoli
Department of Natural History of Man
Pis University, Pisa,Italy
Recieved 31,December 1971
Population Biology of the Ancient Egypt
Academic Press
London and New York
Edited by
D.R. Brothwell British Museum[Natural History] London,England
B.A. Chiarelli
Institue of Anthropology,University of Turin,Italy
Among the data collected by Mourant,Kopec,and Domaniewska-Sobczazk[1958]a few groups can be found ,here and there,showing similar distributions. The close resemblence existing between our Dyanstic Egyptian population and a sample of northern Haratin,living in the Algerian Sahara desert,is particulary interesting. This resemblence ,shown in Table seven could of course be due to chance ,but it could also shed some light on the problem of the origin of Haratin,pointed out by Cabot-Briggs[1958].
page 464
From what time period where the mummies? What dyansties ?
No such thing as ''negriod'' genes.
Here is another study:
Y-chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt
to appear in American Journal of Physical Anthropology Brief communication: Y-chromosome haplotypes in Egypt G. Lucotte *, G. Mercier International Institute of Anthropology, Paris, France ABSTRACT
We analyzed Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Nile River Valley in Egypt in 274 unrelated males, using the p49a,f TaqI polymorphism. These individuals were born in three regions along the river: in Alexandria (the Delta and Lower Egypt), in Upper Egypt, and in Lower Nubia. Fifteen different p49a,f TaqI haplotypes are present in Egypt, the three most common being haplotype V (39.4%), haplotype XI (18.9%), and haplotype IV (13.9%). Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab haplotype, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt in the Nile River Valley. Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan populations, shows a southern geographic distribution in Egypt. Am J Phys Anthropol 121:000-000, 2003. © 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc. .. As for mtDNA (Krings et al., [1999]), the present study on the Y- chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y- haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings et al. ([1999]) to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan. It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history (3200-3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991-1785 B.C.), and more permanently during the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490-1437 B.C.). The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th Dynasty (730-655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered Egypt. .. Concerning less frequent Y-haplotypes in Egypt, haplotype VIII is characteristic of Semitic populations, originating in the Near East (Lucotte et al., [1993]). For example (Lucotte et al., [1996]), the frequency of haplotype VIII is 26.2% among North African Jews (where it represents the majority haplotype) and 77.5% among Jews from the island of Djerba (Tunisia), reaching 85.1% among Oriental (from Iraq, Iran, and Syria) Jews. Similarly, haplotype VII had a general geographical distribution fairly identical to that of haplotype VIII (which it often accompanies as a secondary haplotype); haplotype VII distinguishes itself by increased preponderance north of the Mediterranean and in Eastern Europe (Lucotte et al., [1996]). Haplotype XV is the most widespread Y-haplotype in Western Europe (Lucotte and Hazout, [1996]), where its frequency decreases from west to east (Semino et al., [1996]; Lucotte and Loirat, [1999]). Haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV are less common haplotypes in Egypt (7.3%, 6.6%, and 5.5%, respectively), and tend to be located in the north of the country, near the Mediterranean coast. Possibly haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV represent, respectively, Near East, Greek, and Roman influences.
Ann Hum Genet. 2004 Jan;68(1):23-39. Related Articles, Links
Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt.
The Brace study also found that sub-Saharans cluster with Aboriginees but genetically these two people are distinct.
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Post by alexandrian on May 17, 2005 23:49:25 GMT -5
No, the rainmaker king is exclusive to North-eastern Africans. Another African trait that the Dyanstic Egyptians had was the circumcision rites. Yes, I realize that other people such as Semites had this but only Africans circumcize their youth as a coming-of-age ritual. The following still occurs in rural parts of Egypt. Circumcision, as even you admit, was certainly not limited to Northeast African populations. The Hebrews had been doing it since the time of Abraham and it was a prevalent practice throughout the Semitic world. What is circumcision if not a coming-of-age ritual?? In Turkey, even to this day, boys are circumcised at 13 and they celebrate it- that is certainly a coming of age ritual- are the Turks Aethopid? Because most of the genetic samples come from Lower Egypt. The studies say so themselves. Very few samples come from people living in villages in Upper Egypt. Yes, I realize that most people live in Lower Egypt,but this is also the same area where the most foreign gene flow has occured. Most people living south of Luxor are no more pure Egyptians than those in Lower Egypt, maybe even less so. The vast majority of the population lives in either Lower or Middle Egypt. Don't you think where the most Egyptians are can better present to us the picture of the typical Egyptian? Aswan was the first nome of Upper Egypt. It was called Ta-seti but it was still apart of the ancient Egyptian nome system. During the dyanstic period Luxor-Aswan is where most of the Upper Egyptian population was. The population in Lower Egypt from from Faiyum to the Delta. Aswan was always considered a Nubian city, or a border city. The heart of "Upper Egypt" in the eyes of the AEs was further North. Most of ancient "upper Egypt" is what I consider "Middle Egypt" today. Problem with this study is it was never published in a peer reviewed journal. The question is what Egyptian population was tested in this study. Do you know? Yes, the Egyptian population studied, I believe, were Cairenes. Relatively few ancient remains have been tested. Pre-dyanstic Egyptian remains will tell us more about the ancient Egyptians than some testing around the Great Pyramid. What do you mean relatively few remains? I just gave you three studies. You saw where the race study grouped Egyptians, even [predynastic Upper egyptians, the group most likely to have signifcant non-Caucasoid admixture, is still on the fringe of the Caucasoid sphere. They are more Caucasoid than Indians.
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Post by alexandrian on May 17, 2005 23:55:46 GMT -5
No such thing as ''negriod'' genes. What the hell? Still though, this negroid haplotype or whatever was more prevalent in Portuguese, Morroccans, and Palestinians than it was in Upper or Lower Egyptians. If Egyptians are Negroid, so are all the above-stated groups. See how ridiculous that sounds? Here is another study: Y-chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt to appear in American Journal of Physical Anthropology Brief communication: Y-chromosome haplotypes in Egypt G. Lucotte *, G. Mercier International Institute of Anthropology, Paris, France ABSTRACT We analyzed Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Nile River Valley in Egypt in 274 unrelated males, using the p49a,f TaqI polymorphism. These individuals were born in three regions along the river: in Alexandria (the Delta and Lower Egypt), in Upper Egypt, and in Lower Nubia. Fifteen different p49a,f TaqI haplotypes are present in Egypt, the three most common being haplotype V (39.4%), haplotype XI (18.9%), and haplotype IV (13.9%). Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab haplotype, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt in the Nile River Valley. Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan populations, shows a southern geographic distribution in Egypt. Am J Phys Anthropol 121:000-000, 2003. © 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc. .. As for mtDNA (Krings et al., [1999]), the present study on the Y- chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y- haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings et al. ([1999]) to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan. It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history (3200-3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991-1785 B.C.), and more permanently during the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490-1437 B.C.). The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th Dynasty (730-655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered Egypt. .. Concerning less frequent Y-haplotypes in Egypt, haplotype VIII is characteristic of Semitic populations, originating in the Near East (Lucotte et al., [1993]). For example (Lucotte et al., [1996]), the frequency of haplotype VIII is 26.2% among North African Jews (where it represents the majority haplotype) and 77.5% among Jews from the island of Djerba (Tunisia), reaching 85.1% among Oriental (from Iraq, Iran, and Syria) Jews. Similarly, haplotype VII had a general geographical distribution fairly identical to that of haplotype VIII (which it often accompanies as a secondary haplotype); haplotype VII distinguishes itself by increased preponderance north of the Mediterranean and in Eastern Europe (Lucotte et al., [1996]). Haplotype XV is the most widespread Y-haplotype in Western Europe (Lucotte and Hazout, [1996]), where its frequency decreases from west to east (Semino et al., [1996]; Lucotte and Loirat, [1999]). Haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV are less common haplotypes in Egypt (7.3%, 6.6%, and 5.5%, respectively), and tend to be located in the north of the country, near the Mediterranean coast. Possibly haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV represent, respectively, Near East, Greek, and Roman influences. This is one study, and it still found sub-Saharan DNA to reach a maximum of 13%. Populations don't go from being black to carrying only 1/8 sub-Saharan genese due to mere invasions. Furthermore, this survey misrepresents Egyptians. One of the major three components of the survey are Lower Nubians. Lower Nubians clearly are not ethnically Egyptian and have never been so, so to include their results in an Egyptian average is ridiculous and misleading. If you took out the entire contribution of the Nubians surveyed, the Negroid number would go down significantly. And that's a fact. The Brace study also found that sub-Saharans cluster with Aboriginees but genetically these two people are distinct. And....your point is? Certainly the Haratin thing is interesting, but it seems to be restricted to outdated surveys. Furthermore, as I mentioned in my earlier posts, and you conveniently ignored. We know how the AEs looked like. The images of King Tut, King Ramses II, and Amun-her Khepeshef are not of Aethopids, intermediates, and nowhere near Nubians, they are of Middle-Eastern looking people who look typically Egyptian. Furthermore, Egyptians painted themselves, overhwlemingly, with aquiline, point noses, reddish skin, and straight hair. This reddish skin was also after spending their entire days doing backbreaking work half-naked under the hot desert sun. It is undeniably their bodies were tanned significantly.
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Baladi
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by Baladi on May 18, 2005 0:50:00 GMT -5
This is true for modern Egypt,but not for ancient Egypt. These areas were less populated compared to ancient Egypt. In genetic studies all areas of Egypt should be represented. From the Delta down to Aswan. Another thing which should be taken in consideration is if they are rural or urban Egyptians. The oldest cities in ancinet Egypt were all located around Nekhen[modern el-Kab] This was where the first dyansties ultimately came from. The ancient Egyptians did have have our standard North/South cirections. To go up and down was in the direction of the flow of the Nile River. Aswan was called Ta-seti which means ''first of the first'' During the Old Kingdom the area around Aswan[Elephantine] held much power. As can be seen from the tomb of Harkhuf. Again you are quoting the Brace cluster and clines test. Brace does not believe or support the notion of race so be does not believe in Caucasoids,Negriods,and Mongoloids as racial classifications. This is why the Brace Study is flawed: S. Keita, "A response to Brace et al.'s 'Clines and clusters versus race' (Yearbook of Physical Anthropology, 1993)" - The clusters made in this kind of research are suspect because although australian-melanesian data cluster with Africa, their DNA differs and places the former clearly in Asia. He listed a number of errors in the above mentioned publication, among them misrepresentations of statements made in certain publications by B. Trigger and the present writer, although he did not give more details, I forgot to ask him in what way my views had been distorted and which of my publications he was talking about. He showed many examples of African facial profiles indicating a great variability and denying the claims of some Africans (ie. Nigerians) to represent the true African prototype. He criticized as well the biased use of the language in definitions like for instance writing about "sub-Saharan" populations which has also other cultural implications, so to be consistent they should also use "supra-Saharan" instead of "north African" or other such nomenclature. www.geocities.com/juanjosecastillos/english.htmlAccording to Herodotus it was from the Egyptians and Ethiopians this pratice spread to Phonecians who then carried it to other Semetic speakers. Its definately possible this pratice difussed from North-eastern Africa. Which group in Turkey pratices this customs. You quoted outdated studies of ABO bloodtyping also. The same can be said for your ABO blood typing studies. From what I have read the reconstructions are not always accurate. Lot of them depend on guess work. The only definite way to know what the anicient Egyptians looked like is through artwork which shows a diverse population at different times. "Neave recently appeared on television depicting a 'Mayan' face belonging to one of the celebrated crystal skulls. However, bearing in mind that the shape of the nose can be predicted with only about sixty per cent accuracy and the shape of the tip with only about forty per cent (Macho 1989, 1986), and that the shape of the hair and hairline is unknown, this was indeed an inspired reconstruction!" Conclusions Facial reconstruction is destined to remain an art, albeit an increasingly informed one. The shape of the face bears only a restricted resemblance to the underlying bone structure. Facial reconstructions are inherently inaccurate, therefore, and cannot be used as a positive proof of identification ? certainly not in a court of law. Like many things in archaeology, a facial reconstruction is a scientifically-informed artistic recreation ? an interpretation. Nevertheless, a forensic facial reconstruction has value in potentially allowing the exclusion of a particular individual as the unidentified subject and, most importantly, in acting as a stimulus for recollection of an absent neighbour, friend or relative. In this sense, the accuracy of the image may not be as important as allowing the investigating agencies to benefit from timely media attention and the public eye. The contemporary relevance of research on computerised modelling and animation may benefit archaeology intellectually and financially. Within archaeology, the enhanced cosmetic aspects of facial reconstruction further increase the amount of error incorporated into the model. Nevertheless, the drama of sensitively presented facial reconstructions may foster a greater empathy with the people whose lives we hope somehow to represent. Archaeology continuously faces choices about how to engage with the contemporary world. In this, the first issue of Assemblage, I would like to advocate a strategy of a critical appropriation of science and technology for archaeology. Acknowledgements The Sheffield computerised 3D forensic facial reconstruction project team includes Andrew Chamberlain, Beth Rega, Andy Tyrrell, Martin Evison, Linda Nelson and Kate Howell, and is directed by Prof. Michael Green of the Department of Forensic Pathology. We thank Phil Robinson of St. James' Hospital, Leeds for access to CT facilities. I thank Ian Tyers of Sheffield Dendrochronology Laboratory for his tireless scanning. The project is supported by the UK Home Office. www.shef.ac.uk/assem/1/evison.htmlThere are also scenes where the Egyptians paint the Punites in the same color as themselves which is reddish-brown. The pharaoh lived mostly in the palace and never worked in the sun but his skin is shown reddish brown in all depictions. Also there are tomb scenes showing Egyptians with dark brown coloring such as the tomb of Sennefer,Ipuy,Rekhimire,and others. You can only vaguely tell the hair texture from tomb scenes because most of the time people are wearing wigs. Contrary to what people might say, you can't tell admixture from just one study. The mixture in populations vary depending on which people were sampled.
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 18, 2005 0:52:31 GMT -5
There is no such thing as a specific halpotype being assigned to any particular racial group.
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Post by Crimson Guard on May 18, 2005 1:26:53 GMT -5
All the latest Genetic test prove their is no negroid markers in the Egyptians...
You naysayers need to move on!
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Post by topdog on May 18, 2005 7:04:11 GMT -5
All the latest Genetic test prove their is no negroid markers in the Egyptians... You naysayers need to move on! They are 'sub-Saharan' markers in modern Egyptians but what does your post have to do with ancient Egyptians?
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Post by Minstrel on May 18, 2005 12:04:23 GMT -5
Oh yes, a prime study sample indeed. Vastly represenative of the egyptian population. Throw in the fact that it was actaully conducted by the university of cairo and you have a fine work of non-biased scholarship ready for peer review. Thats the stuff boys! Not only is divine kingship an idea that started in africa, it is even more absurd to say mongoloid poeples have more in common with egyptians, the two were no where near each other. Your shameless denial of SSA influence is in itself as de-legitimizing as afrocentrist claims. By this is time I think I can begin get a grasp upon you from your posts and opinions so far: 1) alexandrian is probably insecure and harbors a complex, especially towards SSA africans, most likely to do with historical and contemporary perceptions of SSA's. 2) the information you present is either mis-informened or mis-interpreted or both, much can be gathered about your credibility from previous posts. That said, even if SSA's had abosulely nothing to do with ancient egypt (which ofcourse is false), they are representing some of the oldest populations, of which most modern humans are mostly a subset of, being that, technically they can "claim" all civilizations, since we can ultimately trace our ancestors to their migrations. Thus me, being a SS african (american) can make the alexandrianist claim (claiming the acheivements of my ancestors) to just about everything, egypt even more so due to it proximity to my homeland. Now do you see the absurdity of your language?
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Post by Crimson Guard on May 18, 2005 12:40:53 GMT -5
Listen Afrocentrists lay off the mind altering substances and find a new hobby,the Egyptians where always a Caucasoid -Mediterrean people:
Here's what Coon said:
"One such concentration of [Paleolithic] food-gatherers is seen in the Sebilian culture of Upper Egypt. The skeletal remains from this culture, which have not yet been published, are said to anticipate in physical type the predynastic, placing a fine Mediterranean type in pre-Neolithic times.
"The importance of these [early Neolithic] people is that they probably represent the prototype of the Neolithic agriculturalists who moved westward along the shore of North Africa to Morocco, and over into Spain, whence they spread the Neolithic economy, with emmer flax, and swine, to the Swiss lakes and to the Rhine. ... The skulls of these people, which consist mostly of females and infants, are all dolichocephalic and Mediterranean. There is no trace of negroid influence and the skulls are said to be larger than those of predynastic Egyptians....
"The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are more prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid. ... Morant shows that the Badarian cranial type is closely similar to that of some of the modern Christians of northern Ethiopia—who incidentally do not show negroid characteristics in the skull—and also to the crania of Dravidian-speaking peoples of southern India. ... On the basis of these racial comparisons, it seems reasonable to suggest that this Badarian physical type may have come from the south, near the headwaters of the Blue Nile. It may represent an early Hamitic racial strain, which persists despite some negroid admixture in Ethiopia and Somaliland to the present day.
"In Lower Egypt lived another group of Mediterranean predynastic people who differed from the Upper Egyptians in certain noticeable ways. The heads were broader, the cranial indices higher, reaching a mean of 75, whereas the Upper Egyptian mean is nearly 72. The vault height is less, the face is no broader, but somewhat longer, and the nasal index is lower.
"The two types from Upper and Lower Egypt represent the extremes of a purely native Egyptian population, but from the beginning of dynastic times, around 3000 B.C. until Ptolemaic times, the numerous series which give an excellent picture of the progress of racial continuity and change in Egypt show the interactions of these two types. The racial history of Egypt in the course of three thousand years was simply the gradual replacement of the Upper Egyptian type by that of Lower Egypt. ... Ancient Egypt must remain the most outstanding example yet known in the world of an important, naturally isolated region in which native racial types were permitted to develop their own way for several thousand years completely uninfluenced by foreign contacts.
"The wealth of contemporary illustrative material from Egyptian art sources may be divided into two classes, conventional representations and portraits. The former show a definite and well-recognized type; slender-bodied and wiry, with narrow hips and small hands and feet. The head and face are those of a smoothly contoured fine Mediterranean form.
"The pigmentation of the Egyptians was usually a brunet white; in the conventional figures the men are represented as red, the women often as lighter, and even white. ... the hair is almost inevitably black or dark brown, and the eyes brown.... The Egyptian representation of foreigners is quite accurate; besides the Libyans, who have Nordic features as well as coloring, Asiatics, with prominent noses and curly hair, sea peoples from the Mediterranean, with lighter skins and a more pronounced facial relief than the Egyptians, are also shown, as well as negroes. ... The Mediterranean pigmentation of the Egyptians has probably not greatly changed during the last five thousand years."
(Carleton S. Coon, The Races of Europe)
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Post by topdog on May 18, 2005 12:49:12 GMT -5
Listen Afrocentrists lay off the mind altering substances and find a new hobby,the Egyptians where always a Caucasoid -Mediterrean people: Here's what Coon said: "One such concentration of [Paleolithic] food-gatherers is seen in the Sebilian culture of Upper Egypt. The skeletal remains from this culture, which have not yet been published, are said to anticipate in physical type the predynastic, placing a fine Mediterranean type in pre-Neolithic times. "The importance of these [early Neolithic] people is that they probably represent the prototype of the Neolithic agriculturalists who moved westward along the shore of North Africa to Morocco, and over into Spain, whence they spread the Neolithic economy, with emmer flax, and swine, to the Swiss lakes and to the Rhine. ... The skulls of these people, which consist mostly of females and infants, are all dolichocephalic and Mediterranean. There is no trace of negroid influence and the skulls are said to be larger than those of predynastic Egyptians.... "The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are more prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid. ... Morant shows that the Badarian cranial type is closely similar to that of some of the modern Christians of northern Ethiopia—who incidentally do not show negroid characteristics in the skull—and also to the crania of Dravidian-speaking peoples of southern India. ... On the basis of these racial comparisons, it seems reasonable to suggest that this Badarian physical type may have come from the south, near the headwaters of the Blue Nile. It may represent an early Hamitic racial strain, which persists despite some negroid admixture in Ethiopia and Somaliland to the present day. "In Lower Egypt lived another group of Mediterranean predynastic people who differed from the Upper Egyptians in certain noticeable ways. The heads were broader, the cranial indices higher, reaching a mean of 75, whereas the Upper Egyptian mean is nearly 72. The vault height is less, the face is no broader, but somewhat longer, and the nasal index is lower. "The two types from Upper and Lower Egypt represent the extremes of a purely native Egyptian population, but from the beginning of dynastic times, around 3000 B.C. until Ptolemaic times, the numerous series which give an excellent picture of the progress of racial continuity and change in Egypt show the interactions of these two types. The racial history of Egypt in the course of three thousand years was simply the gradual replacement of the Upper Egyptian type by that of Lower Egypt. ... Ancient Egypt must remain the most outstanding example yet known in the world of an important, naturally isolated region in which native racial types were permitted to develop their own way for several thousand years completely uninfluenced by foreign contacts. "The wealth of contemporary illustrative material from Egyptian art sources may be divided into two classes, conventional representations and portraits. The former show a definite and well-recognized type; slender-bodied and wiry, with narrow hips and small hands and feet. The head and face are those of a smoothly contoured fine Mediterranean form. "The pigmentation of the Egyptians was usually a brunet white; in the conventional figures the men are represented as red, the women often as lighter, and even white. ... the hair is almost inevitably black or dark brown, and the eyes brown.... The Egyptian representation of foreigners is quite accurate; besides the Libyans, who have Nordic features as well as coloring, Asiatics, with prominent noses and curly hair, sea peoples from the Mediterranean, with lighter skins and a more pronounced facial relief than the Egyptians, are also shown, as well as negroes. ... The Mediterranean pigmentation of the Egyptians has probably not greatly changed during the last five thousand years." (Carleton S. Coon, The Races of Europe) LOL, one of Coon's other 'Caucasoids': The Story of Man Carleton Coon p 196-197 Borzoi Books, 1965 Few skeletons have been found in the Sahara, and these are hard to date because of soil erosion. In Arabia prehistoric archaeology has barely been started. Yet we can be reasonably confident, until other evidence upsets the theory, that these deserts were the home of the slender variety of Caucasoid man. In East Africa this type has survived among the slender, narrow-faced Watusi and other cattle people. Good work Crimson, we can now add Tutsis to the Caucasoid family.
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Post by topdog on May 18, 2005 12:52:29 GMT -5
Why do people put so much stock in pseudo-science?
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Post by alexandrian on May 18, 2005 17:10:23 GMT -5
The oldest cities in ancinet Egypt were all located around Nekhen[modern el-Kab] This was where the first dyansties ultimately came from. The ancient Egyptians did have have our standard North/South cirections. To go up and down was in the direction of the flow of the Nile River. Aswan was called Ta-seti which means ''first of the first'' During the Old Kingdom the area around Aswan[Elephantine] held much power. As can be seen from the tomb of Harkhuf. First of the first as in first of the Nubian cities. Again you are quoting the Brace cluster and clines test. Brace does not believe or support the notion of race so be does not believe in Caucasoids,Negriods,and Mongoloids as racial classifications. This is why the Brace Study is flawed: Brace still groups both Lower and Upper Egyptian groups close to groups known as Caucasian. His opinions on race don't change anything of his findings. According to Herodotus it was from the Egyptians and Ethiopians this pratice spread to Phonecians who then carried it to other Semetic speakers. Herodotus never said that. Herodotus was debating whether the Ethiopians brought circumcision to the Egyptians or vice-versa. Furthermore, Herodotus was around 450 BC, we know for a fact Hebrews had been practicing circumcision since around 1800 BC. Its definately possible this pratice difussed from North-eastern Africa. Which group in Turkey pratices this customs. It's just a general Turkish custom. From what I have read the reconstructions are not always accurate. Lot of them depend on guess work. The only definite way to know what the anicient Egyptians looked like is through artwork which shows a diverse population at different times. "Neave recently appeared on television depicting a 'Mayan' face belonging to one of the celebrated crystal skulls. However, bearing in mind that the shape of the nose can be predicted with only about sixty per cent accuracy and the shape of the tip with only about forty per cent (Macho 1989, 1986), and that the shape of the hair and hairline is unknown, this was indeed an inspired reconstruction!" Conclusions Facial reconstruction is destined to remain an art, albeit an increasingly informed one. The shape of the face bears only a restricted resemblance to the underlying bone structure. Facial reconstructions are inherently inaccurate, therefore, and cannot be used as a positive proof of identification ? certainly not in a court of law. Like many things in archaeology, a facial reconstruction is a scientifically-informed artistic recreation ? an interpretation. Nevertheless, a forensic facial reconstruction has value in potentially allowing the exclusion of a particular individual as the unidentified subject and, most importantly, in acting as a stimulus for recollection of an absent neighbour, friend or relative. In this sense, the accuracy of the image may not be as important as allowing the investigating agencies to benefit from timely media attention and the public eye. The contemporary relevance of research on computerised modelling and animation may benefit archaeology intellectually and financially. Within archaeology, the enhanced cosmetic aspects of facial reconstruction further increase the amount of error incorporated into the model. Nevertheless, the drama of sensitively presented facial reconstructions may foster a greater empathy with the people whose lives we hope somehow to represent. Archaeology continuously faces choices about how to engage with the contemporary world. In this, the first issue of Assemblage, I would like to advocate a strategy of a critical appropriation of science and technology for archaeology. Acknowledgements The Sheffield computerised 3D forensic facial reconstruction project team includes Andrew Chamberlain, Beth Rega, Andy Tyrrell, Martin Evison, Linda Nelson and Kate Howell, and is directed by Prof. Michael Green of the Department of Forensic Pathology. We thank Phil Robinson of St. James' Hospital, Leeds for access to CT facilities. I thank Ian Tyers of Sheffield Dendrochronology Laboratory for his tireless scanning. The project is supported by the UK Home Office. I like how you cite a study from the 80s to debunk reconstructions. REconstruction technology has progressed significantly in the last twenty years, and you know it. You just can't accept that the Pharoahs weren't black. There are also scenes where the Egyptians paint the Punites in the same color as themselves which is reddish-brown. The pharaoh lived mostly in the palace and never worked in the sun but his skin is shown reddish brown in all depictions. Also there are tomb scenes showing Egyptians with dark brown coloring such as the tomb of Sennefer,Ipuy,Rekhimire,and others. You can only vaguely tell the hair texture from tomb scenes because most of the time people are wearing wigs. Contrary to what people might say, you can't tell admixture from just one study. The mixture in populations vary depending on which people were sampled. The Pharaohs spent a lot of time in battle or hunting. The Egyptians always show themselves with straight hair and fine features that are far from Negroid. Most Egyptian statues do not portray Negroid faces. Puntites were potentially of ARabian origin. Besides, the Egyptian portayal of the PUntite queen showed someone far from Egyptian.
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Post by alexandrian on May 18, 2005 17:15:16 GMT -5
Oh yes, a prime study sample indeed. Vastly represenative of the egyptian population. Throw in the fact that it was actaully conducted by the university of cairo and you have a fine work of non-biased scholarship ready for peer review. Thats the stuff boys! hahahahhaha...I like how you think you can make a comment on internal Egyptian politics..it's quite entertaining. FYI, Cairo is the epitome of Egypt. It is home to nearly 20 million people (including all the suburbs and exurbs), that's over 1/4 of the Egyptian population. Moreover, the inhabitants of Cairo are from all over Egypt, from villages in the Delta to the towns of Upper Egypt, they all go to Cairo. It is the single best representation of Egyptians. But you'd probably prefer they base the entire Egyptian population on a small frontier town on the Sudanese border, right? Not only is divine kingship an idea that started in africa, it is even more absurd to say mongoloid poeples have more in common with egyptians, the two were no where near each other. Your shameless denial of SSA influence is in itself as de-legitimizing as afrocentrist claims. By this is time I think I can begin get a grasp upon you from your posts and opinions so far: 1) alexandrian is probably insecure and harbors a complex, especially towards SSA africans, most likely to do with historical and contemporary perceptions of SSA's. 2) the information you present is either mis-informened or mis-interpreted or both, much can be gathered about your credibility from previous posts. That said, even if SSA's had abosulely nothing to do with ancient egypt (which ofcourse is false), they are representing some of the oldest populations, of which most modern humans are mostly a subset of, being that, technically they can "claim" all civilizations, since we can ultimately trace our ancestors to their migrations. Thus me, being a SS african (american) can make the alexandrianist claim (claiming the acheivements of my ancestors) to just about everything, egypt even more so due to it proximity to my homeland. Now do you see the absurdity of your language? Egyptians had ZERO interaction with WEst African groups. Egyptians did have Asian eyes in some portrayals- that's more than their nonexistenet AFrican features. Furthermore, egyptians only interacted with one black African group- the Nubians, they interacted with INdians and Chinese before WEst Africans, and with more Middle Eastern/Mediterranean groups than AFrican ones. Human beings might originate in Africa, but we're not all originally negroes. I'm not the one with a complex, you are in you and your kinsmen desperate attempts to try and fabricate a connection to Egypt since you guys are so ashamed of your own, nearly nonexistent, heritage. I'm sorry you don't know what tribe you came from or if your great-great-great-great-great-great grandpapa was some chief, but it doesn't mean you need to try and pretend that you are a descendant of RAmses II. I've heard some idiots claim that the AEs fled to Nigeria and the modern Egyptians are merely a group of Arabs. How hilarious....see what kind of people you associate yourself with?
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