Iranian Origin of Arthurian Tales

[Aria88]

Greetings, y'all. I am, amongst other things, an avowed Iranicist, though I swear by my objectivity. Recently I have read 2 works on the Sarmatian/Alan (Iranian) origin of the Arthurian mythology. Briefly: a contingent of 5500 defeated heavy Sarmatian cavalry was sent by Emperor Marcus Aurelius from Pannonia to Northern Britain, near Hadrian's Wall. Over 200 years later the incursion of Alanic tribes, themselves a branch of Sarmatians, into Western Europe added to the idealization of heroic mounted warriors, synthesized with traditional Celtic imagery and Romano-British history and produced the Arthurian quasi-history. Caveat: I have greatly simplified the premise, as I am pressed for time. I recommend those interested to purchase the following:

From Scythia to Camelot, by Littleton & Malcor

Arthur the Dragon King, by Reid

Apparently there is a feature film opening this summer based, somewhat, on this topic; however, it is a live-action Disney movie, so I don't expect too much.

[Abelard]

Aria88 said:

Greetings, y'all. I am, amongst other things, an avowed Iranicist, though I swear by my objectivity. Recently I have read 2 works on the Sarmatian/Alan (Iranian) origin of the Arthurian mythology. Briefly: a contingent of 5500 defeated heavy Sarmatian cavalry was sent by Emperor Marcus Aurelius from Pannonia to Northern Britain, near Hadrian's Wall. Over 200 years later the incursion of Alanic tribes, themselves a branch of Sarmatians, into Western Europe added to the idealization of heroic mounted warriors, synthesized with traditional Celtic imagery and Romano-British history and produced the Arthurian quasi-history. Caveat: I have greatly simplified the premise, as I am pressed for time. I recommend those interested to purchase the following:

From Scythia to Camelot, by Littleton & Malcor

Arthur the Dragon King, by Reid

Apparently there is a feature film opening this summer based, somewhat, on this topic; however, it is a live-action Disney movie, so I don't expect too much.

Uh huh, but Le Morte Darthur which is the basis for all modern Arthurian legend is basically a compilation of French romantic prose. Lancelot, Camelot, Guinevere...

[Aria88]

The crux of the Iranian (Sarmatian/Alan) argument is that there were 2 major currents of origin: the Sarmatian cavalry ca. 160 CE in Ribchester, near Hadrian's Wall; and Alan incursions in Western Europe (France, Spain, N. Italy, etc.) from the 5th century CE onwards.

The Celtic overlay occured as a result of the former. Anything "French" is a result of the Alans, who ruled, with or without the alliance of Goths, various regions of Gaul/France. The Alans brought their superior martial culture to Western Europe beginning ca. 400 CE. A great deal of the Motre D'arthur is based on Breton locales, an area dominated by Alan nobility through to the heart of the Middle Ages. If you see anything French (as well as Celtic) in Arthur, it is simply because of the Sarmatian/Alan element that helped create the tradition itself.

Often mythic history is the result of folkish memory and retelling of real events and the poetic elaboration of such over a period of aeons. By the way, the name of the Roman commander of the Sarmatian cavalry in N. Britain is historically attested as Artorius.

Beware of folk etymologies!

[Abelard]

Aria88 said:

The crux of the Iranian (Sarmatian/Alan) argument is that there were 2 major currents of origin: the Sarmatian cavalry ca. 160 CE in Ribchester, near Hadrian's Wall; and Alan incursions in Western Europe (France, Spain, N. Italy, etc.) from the 5th century CE onwards.

The Celtic overlay occured as a result of the former. Anything "French" is a result of the Alans, who ruled, with or without the alliance of Goths, various regions of Gaul/France. The Alans brought their superior martial culture to Western Europe beginning ca. 400 CE. A great deal of the Motre D'arthur is based on Breton locales, an area dominated by Alan nobility through to the heart of the Middle Ages. If you see anything French (as well as Celtic) in Arthur, it is simply because of the Sarmatian/Alan element that helped create the tradition itself.

Often mythic history is the result of folkish memory and retelling of real events and the poetic elaboration of such over a period of aeons. By the way, the name of the Roman commander of the Sarmatian cavalry in N. Britain is historically attested as Artorius.

Beware of folk etymologies!

I'm sorry but you're a revionist crackpot. 90% + of modern Arthurian legend comes from 10th to 13th century French poetry. It is that simple.

[Aria88]

Dude, you're the Frog crackpot. I guess you don't read much. The whole point is that these "French" in the Middle Ages were the descendants of Alans (though not, of course, all Frogs -- er -- French). There is an entire list of toponyms in Franch (and neighboring countries) with the etymology of "Alan." The name itself appears in various forms in the Grail stories themselves. And it was the Sarmatians and Alans themselves who brought the chivalric tradition to western Europe. The Arthurian mythology is based on what I have previously mentioned in my 2 posts. Furthermore, there is a corpus called the Nart Sagas, which is the Alanic tradition in the Caucasus, the last remaining enclave of Alans/Sarmatians left in the world (the rest of whom blended with all their host nations). I myself am Polish-Russian-French-German-Lithuanian, so I almost definitely have Sarmatian blood coursing through my veins. And because of the 3rd ethnicity I know how to say "I surrender."

So before you demonstrate your ignorance again by repeating "Frog literature of the blahblah century," I recommend you crack open one of these books at a library. Besides, what's so wrong with revisionist hitory any way? Once something is written it cannot be amended? History is a living science, and as such, as discoveries are constantly being made, it is only proper that conclusions are "revised."

[Slaven]

Lancelot, Camelot, Guinevere...

I don't know about Guinevere and Lancelot but read something about the etymology of the name Camelot. So they say... the word comes from Anglo-Saxon Cum(s)- a- lot ;D.

[Abelard]

Aria88 said:

Dude, you're the Frog crackpot. I guess you don't read much. The whole point is that these "French" in the Middle Ages were the descendants of Alans (though not, of course, all Frogs -- er -- French). There is an entire list of toponyms in Franch (and neighboring countries) with the etymology of "Alan." The name itself appears in various forms in the Grail stories themselves. And it was the Sarmatians and Alans themselves who brought the chivalric tradition to western Europe. The Arthurian mythology is based on what I have previously mentioned in my 2 posts. Furthermore, there is a corpus called the Nart Sagas, which is the Alanic tradition in the Caucasus, the last remaining enclave of Alans/Sarmatians left in the world (the rest of whom blended with all their host nations). I myself am Polish-Russian-French-German-Lithuanian, so I almost definitely have Sarmatian blood coursing through my veins. And because of the 3rd ethnicity I know how to say "I surrender."

So before you demonstrate your ignorance again by repeating "Frog literature of the blahblah century," I recommend you crack open one of these books at a library. Besides, what's so wrong with revisionist hitory any way? Once something is written it cannot be amended? History is a living science, and as such, as discoveries are constantly being made, it is only proper that conclusions are "revised."

No dude you're, like, the bonehead, you know? Y'all know what I'm saying? You're so enamored of the blood coursing through your veins that you can't distinguish fact from fallacy. The origins of the Arthurian legends do lay in ancient Celtic mythology but most of the key concepts of what we know of today as the Arthurian story come from medieval French writers, mainly Chretien de Troyes and Wace (none of whom were descended from 'alans'.) That's my point. I could not care less about your Iranicist fantasies. Now run along and stop making up history to suit your pathetic desire for a glorious history.

[Aria88]

I didn't create these theories; I simply support them. I was encouraged to read the 2 books mentioned above by Dr. Victor Mair of the University of Pennsylvania, the co-author of The Tarim Mummies (which deals with Iranians and Tocharians in western China). I find the premise absolutely credible. If you don't wish to peruse the contents of these scholarly writings, that's your prerogative. It's not my intention to convince you of anything. You simply prove that the closed-minded need not ever test their beliefs. Hurrah for you.

[Aria88]

Knock knock.

(Abelard) Who's there?

Mssr LePen.

(Abelard) Mssr LePen who?

Mssr LePen and 100 skinheads to invite you to be the guest of honor at le necktie party.

(Abelard) What happens after le necktie party?

Le dirt nap.

(Abelard)

[berschneider]

Aria88 said:

Knock knock.

(Abelard) Who's there?

Mssr LePen.

(Abelard) Mssr LePen who?

Mssr LePen and 100 skinheads to invite you to be the guest of honor at le necktie party.

(Abelard) What happens after le necktie party?

Le dirt nap.

(Abelard)

I guess it's supposed to be funny? You are a moron, Aria88, a real idiot.

[berschneider]

Abelard said:

No dude you're, like, the bonehead, you know? Y'all know what I'm saying? You're so enamored of the blood coursing through your veins that you can't distinguish fact from fallacy. The origins of the Arthurian legends do lay in ancient Celtic mythology but most of the key concepts of what we know of today as the Arthurian story come from medieval French writers, mainly Chretien de Troyes and Wace (none of whom were descended from 'alans'.) That's my point. I could not care less about your Iranicist fantasies. Now run along and stop making up history to suit your pathetic desire for a glorious history.

Abelard, you are wasting your time with this mutant. He's hopeless.

[Graeme]

All this fuss about a mythic figure whose fame rest on a type of table and being a cuckold. The Alans story is very far fetched in fact lunar.

[Aria88]

Wow. Nobody has been able to put together an intelligent argument against the Sarmatian/Alan genesis. I'm very disappointed in you pseudo-intellectuals.

[Abelard]

Abelard, you are wasting your time with this mutant. He's hopeless.

I know. Aria88 is obviously a slack jawed hick with delusions of grandeur for himself and his slave, errr, slav ancestors. And imagine the inner turmoil he must go through everyday trying to reconcile the fact that one half of his ancestry is human and the other sub-human.

[Melnorme]

Abelard said:

I know. Aria88 is obviously a slack jawed hick with delusions of grandeur for himself and his slave, errr, slav ancestors. And imagine the inner turmoil he must go through everyday trying to reconcile the fact that one half of his ancestry is human and the other sub-human.

Be nice, Moulin.