Greatest Civs

[Octavivs]

When I wrote Near East I meant Middle East, I don´t know if in English there is a difference...

[ramsharma]

Well, I accidentally clicked on East Asia, but I would have gone with Northern Europe. I think the last 500 years, if you ask me has seen progress after progress after progress, like never before, coming primarily from England, Germany, a bit from Scandinavia, Italy and France. Plus, America has a Northern European beginning anyway....

[roc]

Well let's see, the Middle East and Egypt were farthest ahead in the earliest part of history. For most of last two thousand years, it was India and China that led the world in wealth and technology. Only in recent centuries did Europe pull ahead of Asia, and that was due to technological advances centered around the northwest part of Europe. So I would say Mediterranean Europe is very bad choice. I voted for East Asia.

[alex221166]

roc said:

Only in recent centuries did Europe pull ahead of Asia, and that was due to technological advances centered around the northwest part of Europe. So I would say Mediterranean Europe is very bad choice.

Where did the Renaissance start? Where was the Age of Exploration born? Which countries were the first to take European culture to such places as America, sub-saharan Africa, India, China, Japan and Indonesia?

Northern Europe has the last 200 years, France had the 50 years prior to those, and Italy, Spain and Portugal had the 250 years prior to those of France.

So no, in my opinion Mediterranean Europe is an excellent choice (though southern Europe would be a better one).

[roc]

Renaissance and Age of Exploration were made possible after China introduced printing press, compass, and gunpowder. First one was copied by German, last two by Italian. Francis Bacon wrote in 1600 how these three inventions totally transformed everything, and that all three of these came to Europe from China. The difference is that Europe decided to use the last two for their own purposes and take land and resources from other places belonging to other people.

You ask which countries were the first to spread European culture to America, sub-saharan Africa, India, China, Japan and Indonesia. You say that like it is good thing. No good came out of that. The former England colonies are the only successful ones today and even some of those are bad.

Open your eyes! Your language that you use here has Germanic root, your alphabet (aleph-beth) has Phoenician root, your numbers have Indian root, you practice a religion with Middle East root. Southern Europe did not start agricultural revolution, they did not start industrial revolution, they did not start any major religion, they were not first in any crucial building block of civilization. Their role was only to prepare stage for northwest Europe including France.

[ramsharma]

Yeah, I actually have to agree with Roc here, although, let's just say that back in the days slavery was an acceptable part of the system; everybody partook in killing, maiming and abusing other people. If you scrutinize ancient civilizations, I think we can all conclude that there have been many instances when one subgroup replaces another, and another one replaces the subgroup, etc.
Also about Southern Europe taking Europe to different parts of the globe, I think that is quite true. But in the global context, however,one thing to be said is that India, China, Japan, Central Asia, Middle East were already tied to each other(or had discovered each other, if you prefer) since day 1, although I must confess that China, India and Japan(Asian cultures) are much much closer culturally. I think that in the future, when China opens up economically, there will be a mutual symbiotic relationship between India and China, as has been in ancient times. The two big asian countries have always been inextricably linked. So, personally, this is what I am hoping for, and we need to put our differences aside and think for mutual benefit. Just think what two countries with more than a billion countries can achieve were they to collaborate in matters that are of utmost importance to both the countries.

However, let's keep in mind that Italy has contributed quite a lot to take European culture ahead. It is a Southern European nation.

[alex221166]

"Renaissance and Age of Exploration were made possible after China introduced printing press, compass, and gunpowder."

The Age of Exploration was made possible thanks to Portugal. As simple as that. The last time I checked, Portugal was in southern Europe.

Gunpowder had NO IMPORTANCE in the Age of Exploration, though it was important in colonizing the world. As to the compass, the ones used by the Portuguese explorers were so crappy that they relied on the North Star and on the so called "Padrões" (stone monuments built along the African shore with their location recorded).

As to the printing press... What the hell are you talkign about? We started exploring the world 150 years before Guttenberg had the idea of a press.

"Francis Bacon wrote in 1600 how these three inventions totally transformed everything, and that all three of these came to Europe from China."

Many things came from China to Europe (one of them was tea) and most of them were brought by the Portuguese.

"You ask which countries were the first to spread European culture to America, sub-saharan Africa, India, China, Japan and Indonesia. You say that like it is good thing. No good came out of that. The former England colonies are the only successful ones today and even some of those are bad."

To me, expanding Western European culture is a good thing. Even in Indonesia, the Portuguese colonization is remebered fondly by the locals (believe it or not!).

"Open your eyes! Your language that you use here has Germanic root,"

Portuguese has a Germanic root?

"your alphabet (aleph-beth) has Phoenician root,"

So?

"your numbers have Indian root,"

Do they?

"you practice a religion with Middle East root."

So?

"Southern Europe did not start agricultural revolution, they did not start industrial revolution, they did not start any major religion, they were not first in any crucial building block of civilization."

Of course not - which is why Europe was in the middle ages until we started sending our ships across the ocean, and which is why northern European countries had to hire Portuguese pilots and cartographers massively to sustain their own exploration expeditions.

"Their role was only to prepare stage for northwest Europe including France."

Yes, we explored 2/3 of the world and expanded Christendom just to prepare the stage for France.

[geirr]

alex said:

Many things came from China to Europe (one of them was tea) and most of them were brought by the Portuguese.

To me, expanding Western European culture is a good thing. Even in Indonesia, the Portuguese colonization is remebered fondly by the locals (believe it or not!).

It's the English who were the tea drinkers in Europe, tea was highly protected by the Chinese as it was their biggest earner and no one else had the knowledge, resources or expertise to grow tea. The balance of trade between China and England was a one way street. The English eventually stole plants from China and took them to India cultivating and harvesting them there destroying the Chinese monopoly while at the same time importing opium into China. The Chinese economy collapsed while Opium and it's consequences both social and ecomomic created political instability allowing the English to move in and 'colonise' the poor locals. To this day tea comes from the sub-continent produced mainly by English multi-nationals.

East Timor has been a war zone for the last 30 odd years, many Indonesians have nothing but contempt for the colonisers whether Dutch or Portuguese. Culturally the Portuguese left a lasting legacy in East Timor which many there want to hang on too, many Timorese are of Portuguese descent and Portuguese is still a common language. The Portuguese government did not leave East Timor in a good position socially and economically after independence in 1975 resulting in political instabilty. The Indonesians invaded East Timor days after independence leading to thousands imprisoned, tortured or killed.

[Tautalos]

Geirr said:

It's the English who were the tea drinkers in Europe,

... and the «English tradition» of tea at five o'clock, was introduced by... a Portuguese queen...

[Tautalos]

roc said:

Renaissance and Age of Exploration were made possible after China introduced printing press, compass, and gunpowder

Wrong. The Renaissance is basically the palid restoration of the ancient classic culture, which is Southern European.

The alphabet, as we use it, is from Southern European origin; Western Philosophy, Art, Politics, is almost completely based in the classical tradition, from both Greece and Rome; the language for scientific classification in biology and other sciences, is either Latin or Greek.

Their role was only to prepare stage for northwest Europe including France.

Haahahhahahah! Ridiculous arrogance... as if northwestern Europe was the centre of the world and of History...

[xxx]

Geirr said:

East Timor has been a war zone for the last 30 odd years, many Indonesians have nothing but contempt for the colonisers whether Dutch or Portuguese. Culturally the Portuguese left a lasting legacy in East Timor which many there want to hang on too, many Timorese are of Portuguese descent and Portuguese is still a common language. The Portuguese government did not leave East Timor in a good position socially and economically after independence in 1975 resulting in political instabilty. The Indonesians invaded East Timor days after independence leading to thousands imprisoned, tortured or killed.

I love this kind of cheap arguments, they are so simplistic. So the Portuguese are to blame because in the natives are useless? Alright, then let's blame the English for the position in which the former British colonies in Africa are, where even today former Rhodesia is a mess. Or let's blame them for the current situation of the one Caribbean nation they held. Or let's blame the Germans for the backwardness of Namibia. Or Belgium for Congo. Et cetera et ad nauseam.

[alex221166]

"It's the English who were the tea drinkers in Europe,"

That is true - they became great tea drinkers after a Portuguese queen introduced tea in England. The Portuguese also introduced tea in Europe in the 1560s.

"East Timor has been a war zone for the last 30 odd years, many Indonesians have nothing but contempt for the colonisers whether Dutch or Portuguese."

You are wrong. Nowadays Portugal and Indonesia have excellent diplomatic relations, Portuguese tourists swarm to Indonesia (one of them was killed in Bali) and I have even seen televised reports about Portuguese historians that were surprised to find that illiterate Indonesian peasants remembered fondly old stories of XVI century Portuguese merchants.

Japan is also one of the greatest importers of Portuguese culture. You neglect the (largely positive) effect of the Portuguese presence in Asia. Even the Japanese word "arigato" is a bastardization of "obrigado".

"Culturally the Portuguese left a lasting legacy in East Timor which many there want to hang on too, many Timorese are of Portuguese descent and Portuguese is still a common language."

I disagree. Most Timorees are tribals who besides being Christians, have no other European influences. East Timor was our most neglected colony (which was a good thing because that meant that the villagers could live like they had always lived with no Portuguese interference).

"The Portuguese government did not leave East Timor in a good position socially and economically after independence in 1975 resulting in political instabilty. The Indonesians invaded East Timor days after independence leading to thousands imprisoned, tortured or killed."

That is true. What is usually forgotten, is that in 1974-75, Portugal was controlled by communists who wanted to hand our colonies to USSR. For the most part, they succeeded in doing so.

[xxx]

alex said:

Japan is also one of the greatest importers of Portuguese culture. You neglect the (largely positive) effect of the Portuguese presence in Asia. Even the Japanese word "arigato" is a bastardization of "obrigado".

The Japanese dish known as tempura, a type of fried shrimps, was also borrowed from the Portuguese.

[alex221166]

Mynydd said:

The Japanese dish known as tempura, a type of fried shrimps, was also borrowed from the Portuguese.

I had no idea of that one. What I do know, is that the famous "pasteis de Belém" are flown from Lisbon to Japan regurlarly and that the Japanese pay as much as 25€ (!!!) for something that costs ~0.70€ in Lisbon...

[xxx]

alex said:

I had no idea of that one. What I do know, is that the famous "pasteis de Belém" are flown from Lisbon to Japan regurlarly and that the Japanese pay as much as 25€ (!!!) for something that costs ~0.70€ in Lisbon...

70¢ each? My brother-in-law and his mother bring me lots of them everytime they come here. I never have any sweets, I don't enjoy sweets at all. And yet I love those pastries a lot... topped with that powdery sugar and cinnamon.

I know the thing about Japanese tempura from my brother, who spent 3 years working and studying in Tokyo. I'll ask him if he knows of more Portuguese influences in Japan.

We, Spaniards, only left a religious print in Japan. It was the Spanish Jesuit St. Francisco Javier who introduced Christianism in Japan in 1549. But the commercial relations between Portugal & Spain with Japan (using the sea trade routes discovered and opened by the Portuguese navigators), and the first embassies sent to Lisbon and Madrid date back to the XVth Century. In 1639, both Portugal and Spain were expelled from Japan.