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Post by geirr on Apr 7, 2004 3:44:57 GMT -5
I love this kind of cheap arguments, they are so simplistic. So the Portuguese are to blame because in the natives are useless? Alright, then let's blame the English for the position in which the former British colonies in Africa are, where even today former Rhodesia is a mess. Or let's blame them for the current situation of the one Caribbean nation they held. Or let's blame the Germans for the backwardness of Namibia. Or Belgium for Congo. Et cetera et ad nauseam. It's not an argument I was simply stating what happened. I wasn't blaming Portugal for what the Indonesians did in East Timor, thats unfair. The Portuguese had there reasons at the time to let East Timor go, nevertheless the Indonesians invaded 9 days after independence and in 25 years of repression left hundreds of thousands dead and missing. East Timor today is an independent nation under the protection of the United Nations. If you want to blame the British, Germans or Belgians for the plight of their respective colonies be my guest.
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Post by geirr on Apr 7, 2004 4:18:09 GMT -5
You are wrong. Nowadays Portugal and Indonesia have excellent diplomatic relations, Portuguese tourists swarm to Indonesia (one of them was killed in Bali) and I have even seen televised reports about Portuguese historians that were surprised to find that illiterate Indonesian peasants remembered fondly old stories of XVI century Portuguese merchants. That maybe true today but Indonesia and Portugal had strained relations during the Indonesian occupation of East Timor. Unfortunately Indonesia is a no go area for tourists because of the terrorist threat to westerners, Yes, many in the area fondly remember old stories told to them about Portuguese merchants, including Aboriginals in Northern Australia. I disagree. Most Timorees are tribals who besides being Christians, have no other European influences. East Timor was our most neglected colony (which was a good thing because that meant that the villagers could live like they had always lived with no Portuguese interference). Portuguese is one of the official languages of East Timor because they very much value the Portuguese culture and it's influence on the country. Many East Timorese do have some Portuguese descent and the culture is clearly present in the East Timorese people that's what makes them distinct. That is true. What is usually forgotten, is that in 1974-75, Portugal was controlled by communists who wanted to hand our colonies to USSR. For the most part, they succeeded in doing so. My intention was not to bad mouth the Portuguese whom I have a lot of respect and admiration for, Australia, the USA and of course Indonesia made decisions at the time due to the cold war with the Soviet Union which resulted in what happened in East Timor.
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 7, 2004 6:57:13 GMT -5
It's not an argument I was simply stating what happened. I wasn't blaming Portugal for what the Indonesians did in East Timor, thats unfair. The Portuguese had there reasons at the time to let East Timor go, nevertheless the Indonesians invaded 9 days after independence and in 25 years of repression left hundreds of thousands dead and missing. East Timor today is an independent nation under the protection of the United Nations. If you want to blame the British, Germans or Belgians for the plight of their respective colonies be my guest. No, Timor is independant because hundreds of thousands of Portuguese - including myself - marched and protested for days on end for the East-Timoree liberation. Timor is also independant because the Portuguese diplomacy was excellent in uniting the International community. It took us some 25 years but we did it. Without Portugal, East-Timor would still be an Indonesian colony.
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 7, 2004 7:01:31 GMT -5
That maybe true today but Indonesia and Portugal had strained relations during the Indonesian occupation of East Timor. Unfortunately Indonesia is a no go area for tourists because of the terrorist threat to westerners, Yes, many in the area fondly remember old stories told to them about Portuguese merchants, including Aboriginals in Northern Australia. Portuguese is one of the official languages of East Timor because they very much value the Portuguese culture and it's influence on the country. Many East Timorese do have some Portuguese descent and the culture is clearly present in the East Timorese people that's what makes them distinct. My intention was not to bad mouth the Portuguese whom I have a lot of respect and admiration for, Australia, the USA and of course Indonesia made decisions at the time due to the cold war with the Soviet Union which resulted in what happened in East Timor. Let me repeat: Portugal and indonesia have nowadays excellent diplomatic relations (even the Suharto foreign minister was welcomed in Portugal last year), most East-Timorees ARE NOT part Portuguese, and they adopted Portuguese as a national language ONLY to make them different from the Australians. It was also a way to thank Portugal for our efforts in liberating. If you want to blame someone for the invasion, you can blame Portugal, but you would do better in blaming Indonesia or the country that told them to go ahead: the US.
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 7, 2004 14:05:43 GMT -5
"70¢ each? My brother-in-law and his mother bring me lots of them everytime they come here. I never have any sweets, I don't enjoy sweets at all. And yet I love those pastries a lot... topped with that powdery sugar and cinnamon." Something like that, I am not really sure because I haven't personally bought any in ages. I can't believe how there are people who dislike those pastries, and I know some Portuguese that don't!!! As far as I am concerned, they are the best thing to eat while you sip a "bica" (expresso). "I know the thing about Japanese tempura from my brother, who spent 3 years working and studying in Tokyo. I'll ask him if he knows of more Portuguese influences in Japan." Well, we did introduce gunpowder . According to tradition, the adventurer called Fernão Mendes Pinto was a member in the party that was forced to disembark in the Japanese island of Kyushu in 1542. In his last years, he wrote his memoires in a book called "Peregrinação" (that book is excellent for everyone interested in the early European influences in Asia). From the book I read recently about Portugal and Japan (this stuff has been mentioned in my Iberian message board), most of our influences were lost when they kicked out the Jesuits, but for some reason the Japanese always kept Portugal close to their hearts (which is surprising for us in this side of the ocean). There are even Japanese students learning how to play Portuguese guitar, and Japanese singers learning fado. Many Portuguese cities have close ties with their Japanese counterparts and so the cultural exchange is growing, but for the most part Japan is still that exotic far-away place, and for the Japanese we are still the "big-noses" (which was what they called the XVI century Portuguese). "We, Spaniards, only left a religious print in Japan. It was the Spanish Jesuit St. Francisco Javier who introduced Christianism in Japan in 1549. But the commercial relations between Portugal & Spain with Japan (using the sea trade routes discovered and opened by the Portuguese navigators), and the first embassies sent to Lisbon and Madrid date back to the XVth Century. In 1639, both Portugal and Spain were expelled from Japan." One thing I was unaware of (until reading "Rodrigues, o Intérprete"), was that the majority of the Jesuit missionaries in Japan were actually Spaniards and Italians. Later, the Jesuits had some problems when the Fransciscans arrived to Japan, and the later were largely the main responsibles for the martyrdom of so many Christians (Europeans, and Japanese like Paulo Miki, who is recorded to have been the first Japanese to die for Christianity - he was crucified).
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Octavivs
Full Member
errare hvmanvm est, in errore perservare stvltvm
Posts: 100
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Post by Octavivs on Apr 7, 2004 16:11:46 GMT -5
Someone here said Southern Europe did nothing and Northern Europe did all .... Please keep your ignorance to yourself... If the Northern Europeans are rich today they have to thank the Italians for the Renaissance and the Portuguese for the Great Navigations era... All the Northern European civilization is based in a Southern European foundation... without it Northern Europeans would be all dirty Barbarians living on the trees again... and if I remember, Italy alone has 65% of the world cultural patrimony... if you put Portugal, Spain, Greece and others with it, you will see how "small" was the Southern European contribution to the World...
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Post by berschneider on Apr 8, 2004 19:52:27 GMT -5
Mediterranean. I think you folks are missing the point here. The poll question is not about 250 years but the poll asks what’s been the most important region for the past 5000 (five thousand)) years. Obviously Mediterranean (but I would include Near East in the same category because what is considered Near East has always belonged to the Mediterranean civilization). Wheat cultivation, money, codified legal system, Babylon, Egypt, Greece and Rome, alphabet, hence modern communications and literature, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, wine making, beer brewing, banking, road construction, ship building and everything else in between. In fact everything I can think of comes from or originates in the Mediterranean. The only region remotely comparable to greater Mediterranean is East Asia, namely China, with its advanced metallurgy, gunpowder, printing, and magnetic compass.
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Post by AWAR on Apr 8, 2004 20:08:30 GMT -5
The near east was the most important... the birthplace of all civilizations... the Mediterranean was the one to flourish most and advance the most.
I don't want to be unfair to China, but I know very little abou them.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 8, 2004 20:11:30 GMT -5
The near east was the most important... the birthplace of all civilizations... the Mediterranean was the one to flourish most and advance the most. I don't want to be unfair to China, but I know very little abou them. I would still consider Near East and the Mediterranean a single cultural and civilizational space
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Post by AWAR on Apr 8, 2004 20:26:19 GMT -5
I would still consider Near East and the Mediterranean a single cultural and civilizational space Yep, that sounds reasonable. Either that, or divide it into smaller regions in the next poll.
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Octavivs
Full Member
errare hvmanvm est, in errore perservare stvltvm
Posts: 100
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Post by Octavivs on Apr 9, 2004 17:42:59 GMT -5
Yep, that sounds reasonable. Either that, or divide it into smaller regions in the next poll. Yes, I was distracted when I wrote it. When I saw I should change it, was too late.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 9, 2004 17:58:35 GMT -5
Yes, I was distracted when I wrote it. When I saw I should change it, was too late. it's doubly so because Near East is a relatively recent and meaningless concept. Definition of Near East has been changing all the time. In the time of Mozart what is now Bosnia would have been considered a part of Near East
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Sandwich
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La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Apr 9, 2004 23:04:17 GMT -5
Very difficult to compare 600 years of peace in China to Athenian democracy, the renaissance, the enlightenment, 19th century empires.
If you were going to be born behind Rawls' "veil of ignorance", i.e. as a random individual in any of these past societies at a random time, which would you choose? As a peasant (most likely), Mediterranean is probably best, but good chance of being a slave of course.
Culturally, Med wins too I feel, but I'm sure this is just my prejudice.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 10, 2004 7:47:19 GMT -5
Very difficult to compare 600 years of peace in China to Athenian democracy, the renaissance, the enlightenment, 19th century empires. If you were going to be born behind Rawls' "veil of ignorance", i.e. as a random individual in any of these past societies at a random time, which would you choose? As a peasant (most likely), Mediterranean is probably best, but good chance of being a slave of course. Culturally, Med wins too I feel, but I'm sure this is just my prejudice. Depends on what is one’s definition of greatness. If global domination and power, then Med/Near East rules supreme. Even the evil United States is an offshoot of that civilization.
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Post by alex221166 on Apr 10, 2004 9:13:35 GMT -5
Very difficult to compare 600 years of peace in China to Athenian democracy, the renaissance, the enlightenment, 19th century empires. If you were going to be born behind Rawls' "veil of ignorance", i.e. as a random individual in any of these past societies at a random time, which would you choose? As a peasant (most likely), Mediterranean is probably best, but good chance of being a slave of course. Culturally, Med wins too I feel, but I'm sure this is just my prejudice. What should be judged is not only the knowledge attained by a certain civilization, but the effect that the knowledge had in world history after being used by that civilization. In that aspect, the Greco-Roman civilization is vastly superior to anything else in the world, despite the fact that many of the scientific discoveries claimed by the west were in fact previously "discovered" by the Chinese, and in some cases by the people of the Indian sub-continent. The same could be applied to the Amerindians: the Inca and the Aztecs had a knowledge of Astronomy which was in soem cases, superior to that of contemporary Europeans, and yet it had no effect whatsoever in world history. In this aspect, there is no doubt that the most successful civilization was that of the Greco-Romans, which is mostly southern European (I disagree with the use of "Mediterranean" because many southern Europeans are Alpines). This may be seen as Eurocentrism, but it happens to be the truth.
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