WB
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Posts: 140
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Post by WB on Mar 21, 2004 14:49:05 GMT -5
This may sound stupid coming from someone with Iberian heritage (portugal) but were they always in Europe? Or were the around the middle-east like some other Europeans first? Meh, I dont know. So little information on Iberia on the net.
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Post by Vimara on Mar 21, 2004 15:05:59 GMT -5
hey wb!! my portuguese brother!! there is tons of books!! amazon.com majority of it is writen in spanish or portuguese but the books that have been translated to english are expensive!! i will post some links on them.
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Post by Vimara on Mar 21, 2004 15:57:15 GMT -5
www.historialago.com/leg_iberos.htmwww.antropos.galeon.com/html/iberos.htm#1www.dhistoria.com/historia/los_iberos.htmwww.homar.org/genealog/IV_Europa_I/ibe03.html ^^^^^^^all in spanish i have tons in my favorites folder. hey you should go to alex's forum i posted and other have also on this subject. you should join!!! HEROS OF ANCIENT IBERIA www.homar.org/genealog/IV_Europa_I/ibe03.htmlLinaje Nombre Ordinal Titulo Lugar Cartagines Amilcar Barca . General Cartago Cartagines Anibal . General Cartago Cartagines Asdrubal Asdrubal el Bello General Cartago Cecilio Metelo Balearico Quinto . Consul Roma Celta Carpetano Hilerno . Regulo Carpetania Celta Lusitano Cauceno . Caudillo Lusitania Celta Lusitano Cesareo . Caudillo Lusitania Celta Lusitano Indortes . Caudillo Lusitania Celta Lusitano Punico . Caudillo Lusitania Celta Lusitano Tautamo . Caudillo Lusitania Celta Lusitano Viriato . Caudillo Lusitania Cornelio Escipion Africano. Publio. Africano mayor. Consul Roma Cornelio Escipion Emiliano /Publio/ Africano menor/ Consul /Roma Ibero Edetano/ Edecon ./ Regulo/ Edetania Ibero Ilercavon/ Mandonio /. Regulo/ Ilercavonia Ibero Ilergeta/ Indibil /. Regulo /Ilergecia Ibero Oretano/ Orisson /. Regulo/ Oretania Ibero Turdetano/ Istolacio/ . Caudillo/ Turdetania Julio Cesar Cayo/ Julio Cesar/ Dictador/ Roma Pompeyo Magno/ Cneo /. Consul /Roma Pompeyo Magno/ Cneo /. Triunviro/ Roma Sempronio Graco/ Tiberio /. Consul/ Roma Sertorio /Quinto /. Pretor Hispania/ Ulterior Ulpio Trajano /Marco Trajano /Emperador Roma
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Post by AWAR on Mar 21, 2004 19:28:44 GMT -5
This may sound stupid coming from someone with Iberian heritage (portugal) but were they always in Europe? Or were the around the middle-east like some other Europeans first? Meh, I dont know. So little information on Iberia on the net. IMO, Iberians came to where they are directly from Africa a long time ago. They were probably the first Homo Sapiens in the area. |
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Post by xxx on Apr 3, 2004 13:03:39 GMT -5
WB, modern genetic data seems to support the hypothesis of an origin in North Africa.
The Iberians belonged to the group of the Mediterraneans, a white Hamitic Caucasian people who inhabited the area of the modern Sahara desert through to the coast of North Africa. The dissecation of a Fertile Sahara would force them into a migratory movement Northwards during the late Paleolithich and through the Mesolithic.
These Mediterranean peoples would extend through much of Southern, Central, and even parts of Northern Europe. Of the "Western" branch of this Northern African Mediterraneans, the better known groups are the Iberians (a general term which would include also Tartessans and any others in the Iberian Peninsula, except for the Basques) and Basque-Aquitanians (probably Basques and Southern France Aquitanians were the same group and even spoke the same language*). However, these two groups are probably only artificial, and there might be little to none difference among them all.
Other Mediterranean people, perhaps an "Eastern" branch or the product of a different route migration, moved into South Eastern Europe via the Middle East. Representatives of this branch would be the Cretan Minoans and early Macedonians in the East, and the Etruscans in Italy. For others like the Ligurians, who were in North Western Italy and extended through Southern France (Provence) and, as it seems, even got to cross the Pyrenees into Spain, I have never seen any indication of their possible side in the branching.
Other well known Mediterraneans would have been those of the Early dynastic Egypt, and the old Imazigh people (Berbers) and Guanches (ancient inhabitants of the Canary Islands before the disembarking of Castilians).
(*)For the record, Prof. A. Arnáiz Villena and researcher J. Alonso García have come to the conclusion that the languages spoken by all these peoples were of one same origin and closely related among themselves, a group they have called the Usko-Mediterranean languages. Usko, in Basque language, means Pure.
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WB
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Post by WB on Apr 17, 2004 12:51:07 GMT -5
Thanks guys...
But, doesn't that make them non-caucasoid? Because supposedly the whites originate in the Caucasus region, right?
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WB
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Post by WB on Apr 17, 2004 12:53:23 GMT -5
Also, they think the Guanches are actually Phoenecians, who of course colonized the Azores. My mother has told me they are of Greek origin, and are blonde-haired/blue-eyed, however not Nordic. I just thought I'd add that. That's why they seemed mysterious when Portuguese explorers arrived later.
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Post by Silveira on Apr 17, 2004 13:21:59 GMT -5
The Guanches were the native inhabitants of the Canary Islands. Both the Azores and the Madeira archipelagos were uninhabited when discovered and settled by the Portuguese in the early 1400s. The Canaries are much closer to the Morrocan coast and were inhabited by a very primitive caucasian population of likely Berber origin. The Guanches make up a part of the ancestors of the present day Canary islanders. The Canaries were colonized by Spain and are Spanish speaking.
Neither the Phoenecians nor the Guanches ever colonized the Azores. There are tales of ancient Roman era navigators who reached lands in the extreme west which may have corresponded to the Azores. However, no permanent settlement of the Azores ever took place. The islands were pristine and uninhabited at the time of the arrival of the Portuguese and I am unaware of any pre-Portuguese archaeological discoveries in those islands. Blondism amongst the Azorean population is likely the result of ethnic strains from northern Portugal and Flandres.
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Manji
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Post by Manji on May 4, 2004 7:11:40 GMT -5
Since most continental portuguese didn't want to live in the islands (who where used at the time as outpost where the incoming/ingoing ships in the trade routes to India and Brazil filled their stocks with water and edible material) the portuguese King let the flemish "half-colonize" the islands. Also, a lot of nordic strains were introduced later on form 1800 forwards when many english families settled in the Madeira and Azores as wine, banana and tobacco producers. Cheers  |
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Ayres
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Arcturus Hispaniensis
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Post by Ayres on May 25, 2004 16:20:39 GMT -5
Since most continental portuguese didn't want to live in the islands and guess who went there?? Our african slaves (as it is obvious, to work), and later the jews that were forced to convert into christianism or to leave the kingdom... |
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Post by Said Mohammad on May 25, 2004 18:35:32 GMT -5
WB, modern genetic data seems to support the hypothesis of an origin in North Africa. The Iberians belonged to the group of the Mediterraneans, a white Hamitic Caucasian people who inhabited the area of the modern Sahara desert through to the coast of North Africa. [ /b] "White Hamitic" Caucasian peoples didn't inhabit the area of the modern Sahara. Rock painting and anthropology yield no evidence of any Caucasian people in the Sahara, the people in the area of the modern Sahara were Negroids, at least up until its northern fringes. Coastal North Africa was at first inhabited Cro-magnoid types peoples, who were later replaced by PROTO-MEDITERRANEAN peoples who migrated from the Middle East. These people were brownskinned peoples DISTINCT from people we would call white or caucasian in the modern sense of the word and from the Cro-Magnoid(Afalou) peoples they replaced. Hamitic has no racial or anthropological value. Ancient Egyptians were not Meds, but a mix of Proto-Mediterranean and Negroid peoples. |
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Post by Vitor on May 25, 2004 18:59:39 GMT -5
If Iberian are not europeans...
then neither would be most:
French
Dutch
belgians
british
irish
some germans
etc...
We are most composed by the genetic marker Hg1, only found on western Europe, Yes we might came from north Africa, but that happened more than 20 000 years ago...
that HG1 marker is old and there is little of it in north africa so that mutation happened in europe...
We might speculate about migrations, but I do believe the better way to study migrations are with genetics...
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Post by AWAR on May 25, 2004 19:28:33 GMT -5
Actually, Hg1 is the most widespread European haplogroup... it's found in almost all Europeans... however, it's highest concentration and origin is in western Europe.
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Post by Vitor on May 25, 2004 20:18:54 GMT -5
Thanks AWAR, I knew that , my mistake!
I should had used the word "mostly found" not "only found"
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Post by Vitor on May 25, 2004 21:34:15 GMT -5
Of course we must not forget the gene input from north Africa after VII century A.D.
It's not significative, but it's still present in Iberia.
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