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Post by Artemisia on Mar 11, 2004 10:13:53 GMT -5
BTW. I just wanted to mention that there is a probability that the use of the name Vlach in history doesn't necessarily need to be connected with a Vlach ethnicity. For example, the Serbs used to refer to any sheep herders as 'Vlachs'. Muslims from Bosnia refer to all Orthodox peoples as Vlachs. Especially Serbs. Interesting, AWAR. In Greece, some people call shepherds Vlachs as well. I guess this is due to the fact that there were too many Vlach shepherds in the past and this name became generalized for all shepherds. Labi, Koritsa (or Korca) is mostly a Vlach city with an Albanian minority. I know because my father worked for the ministry of culture in Albania and he was given documents from Koritsa stating that most of its population was Vlach. Of course, there are also Albanians living there. The Labs are the true Albanians of course. I think there must be very few Vlachs among you guys and there are definately no Greeks. The word Chamis (or Tsamis) derives from the river Thyamis and is not a Turkish or Albanian words. Just because the Turks couldn't pronounce it correctly does not mean that the word was not Greek. The ancient Thesproti were a branch of the Doric tribe and had several important sanctuaries in their area, the most important being the oracle of the dead at Ephyra (near Parga.) The Albanians must have moved into Thesprotia after 1000 A.D. N.G.L Hammond is a good archaeololgist/historian but he is not God. Some of his information is not always correct but this may not be his fault.....he may have been given wrong information by the Albanian and Greek governments. If you can read Greek and want to know more about the different ethnic groups of (mostly) Greek Epirus, read "Apeiros Hora" by Alekos Papadopulos (a Thesprotian.) He has some interesting figures from the 17th-20th centuries.
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Post by AWAR on Mar 11, 2004 10:42:20 GMT -5
if you say so. i just offered my opinion. no way in hell do i think vlach- just simply means shpeherd when 1)they have their own language 2)their own life-style/culture and society this is insane. maybe since slavs are not shepherds may have widened the meaning to anyone who is involved in shpherding. but albanians dont call any shepherd vlach. there is the word coban(turkish) and bari(pure albanian, bar=grass). albanian communist propaganda tryed to claim that vlach were just shepherds thats all, not different form the rest of albanians, just guys whose occupation was grazing cattle. yeah how nice. however the goal was to assimilate the vlach and create homogenous albania. i find serbians trying to do the same, but here the vlach have long been assimilated. here its trying to show that serbs are pure. sicne the vlach are gone all whats left is the term vlach for anyone who is a shpeherd and katun for village. im sorry but slavs=farmer society. its in the ottoman days when you took refuge in the mountains that you adopted their life styles and assimilated them. you dont like my opinion oh well. You understood me wrong. I didn't say that the Vlach ethnicity are all shepherds, I said that the word meant 'Shepherd'. No one still has determined the exact etymology of that word, and of the exact origin of it as the name to an ethnicity. Btw, I know you're trying to insult me, but it isn't working. Use history for learning.
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Sandwich
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La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 11, 2004 15:20:10 GMT -5
Labi, there does seem to be quite a strong case for the word having come to mean this after being a description by Germanics of Celts or romance-language speakers, and then of pastoralists originally driven into the mountains by Germanics. Does anybody know if the Vlach call themselves Aromanians, not Vlach, in every area they inhabit?
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Ioulianos
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Anegnon,Egnon,Kategnon
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Post by Ioulianos on Mar 11, 2004 18:00:35 GMT -5
In Greek the term Vlahoi has a linguistic/ethnic meaning but it has been widened. It is used to describe pastoral populations like the Sarakatsanoi who are Greek speakers or even people from mountainous areas. It also has a derogatory meaning, a Vlakh is ignorant and uncivilised. On the islands people refer to Greeks with northern Greek accents as Vlahoi (derogatory). Anyone speaking a non-athenean accent of Greek,exept islanders,is refered as a "Vlahos" in Athens.Many times it is used as an insult.
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Sandwich
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La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 12, 2004 13:48:17 GMT -5
Thanks Artemidoros. At least now I know the scale of the task. Does anyone have access to a major Greek dictionary on historical principles, that gives the different senses of a word over time? Is there such a thing (I know that in Greece even dictionaries are contentious: contemporary versus modern)? If so can anybody look up the history of the word "Arvanites", when it was first recorded, and how its meaning has (possibly) changed over the centuries? Italians could help too by referring to such a dictionary, as many of the records will be in Venetian and Genoan archives. Unfortunately, I do not have ready access to a good academic library.
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 13, 2004 20:48:35 GMT -5
Thanks Artemidoros. At least now I know the scale of the task. Does anyone have access to a major Greek dictionary on historical principles, that gives the different senses of a word over time? Is there such a thing (I know that in Greece even dictionaries are contentious: contemporary versus modern)? If so can anybody look up the history of the word "Arvanites", when it was first recorded, and how its meaning has (possibly) changed over the centuries? Italians could help too by referring to such a dictionary, as many of the records will be in Venetian and Genoan archives. Unfortunately, I do not have ready access to a good academic library. The only thing I could find out was that the word Arvanites comes from the mountains of Arvana between the rivers Mat and Ischmi, west of lake Ohrid in southern Albania. It seems that the word Albania has different etymology and comes from mount Albanus in Latium, where Illyrian populations had settled.
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Sandwich
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La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 13, 2004 21:15:35 GMT -5
That's one of the main candidates for the historical emergence of Albanians themselves. Very interesting, thank you.
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Post by Artemisia on Mar 15, 2004 9:36:17 GMT -5
The only thing I could find out was that the word Arvanites comes from the mountains of Arvana between the rivers Mat and Ischmi, west of lake Ohrid in southern Albania. It seems that the word Albania has different etymology and comes from mount Albanus in Latium, where Illyrian populations had settled. There were NO Illyrian settlements in Latium! It's like saying there were Illyrian settlements in Athens. This is just propaganda thrown in by scholars who think that Latium was a melting pot. Rome was settled by Latins, Etruscans, and few Greeks.....no Illyrians I'm afraid. Nowadays, even scholars who believed that the Messapians and Daunians of SE Italy were Illyrians are starting to re-evaluate their hypothesis. Until a few years ago, every scholar believed that the Veneti of north Italy spoke an Illyrian dialect but it is now proven beyond doubt that the Venetic language is the closest relative of Latin and is not of Illyrian origin. It's weird to see what some pan-Illyrisicts do. I've seen maps where Macedonia, Epirus, and the whole East coast of Italy were supposedly settled by Illyrians (check the Penguin atlas of the Greek and Roman worlds). I've even seen some "scholars" claiming that Marcus Aurelius and Hadrian (originally from Picenum on the Adriatic coast of Italy) were of Illyrian descent and it is more than certain that they were both Osco-Umbrians. I've also read somewhere once that Aristotle was an Illyrian. Looks like the people who wrote the article didn't know that Aristotle's father was from Stagira and his mother from Chalcis.
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 15, 2004 15:54:53 GMT -5
There were NO Illyrian settlements in Latium! It's like saying there were Illyrian settlements in Athens. Not necessarily real Illyrians. Mythical ones can do the trick "09) the House of Hanover, the German branch of the Italian noble House of Este, descended from the Roman gens “Actii”, and Marcus Actius [the husband of Julius Caesar’s sister, Julia "Major"], descendant of Azio, an Albanese prince (650BC), considered the dynasty’s ancestor, the son of Mettus, the last King of Alba "Longa" [mother-city of Rome], thus, through a dynasty of kings, Prince Azio claimed the sun-goddess, VENUS, as his ancestress. His descendants became Roman senators, and at least one served as Roman Governor of Britain. The descendants of Azio came to be known as the House of Este during The Middle Ages." www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/celticbrehins.wps.htm
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Post by labi on Mar 15, 2004 16:14:47 GMT -5
can you guess why slavs dont have their own word for shepherd? use your imagination. could be it because you are a people that know nothing about mountains shepherding life? i think so. given that after the ottoman takeover many slavs took refuge all of the suddent we have this serbs called montenegrins organised in katuns living a pastorial way of life. yes very slavic. katun was the way the slavs of hercegovania-montenegro-northern albania organised themselves. they liked raiding the latin cities on the coast. when i have the time ill post the article showing that since 13th or 14th century we know of this vlach organised in katuns. can you please tell me the earliest refrence showing montengrins organised as such? ps im not trying to insult you at all. but i seriously doubt youre familiar with vlach topics. at least you havent shown it.
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Post by labi on Mar 15, 2004 16:22:54 GMT -5
ischmi??? i did some search and its called ishmi. however i cant find its geographical location. some source mentioned it but only mentioned randomely about some eviromental problems. so i have no idea where its located.
as far as i understood, its located in northern albania near drin river, but im not willing to bet anything.
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Post by AWAR on Mar 15, 2004 18:48:45 GMT -5
can you guess why slavs dont have their own word for shepherd? use your imagination. Pastir, Ovchar etc. we have multiple synonims for that. There are many reasons why a certain word exists in a certain language. Aren't you people constantly accusing Serbs of being barbarians from the carpathians? We allegedly destroyed your beautiful civilization Montenegro was known far before Ottomans under different names. I suggest you check out the books on the way of life in pre-Ottoman Montenegro before you make such ridiculous statements! In a rocky area such as Montenegro, it's expected from a people to adapt their lifestyle to surroundings. They must organize themselves to survive. What do you think, that Slavs who arrived there in the 5th and 6th century AD totally wiped out the local population, and then what did they do until the 15th century ( a 1000 years ) if they weren't keeping sheep and goats, what else could they do in a place like Montenegro? Grow Marijuana? Become UNIX programmers? Crop enormous wheat fields? ;D Yep! I'm sure this proves that Montenegrins are in fact Vlachs! Of course, right after they publish it on the net. I'm not very familiar with Vlachs, I've never tried to make anyone think I'm an expert on Vlachs, but your claims that all Serbs and Montenegrins are in fact Vlachs is extremely ridiculous. Vlachs as an ethnicity are the only remaining latin-speaking people on the Balkans. Before the Slavic invasions, Balkans was either speaking Latin or Greek ( sure, there were other 'pockets of resistance' but that's not important here ). The Slavs of course Slavicized and assimilated most of the population outside modern Romania. The Vlachs developed much later as an ethnicity, so it's stupid to speak about Serbs being Vlachs, because Serbs are Serbs, Vlachs are Vlachs, two different people who had different ethnogenesis. With your logic, you can say that modern Turks are in fact Lydians and Carians......or that Albanians are Illyrians......Or that Serbs are Iranians....or that French are Gauls.......or that Spaniards are cavemen who painted the Altamira.
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Post by labi on Mar 15, 2004 21:49:37 GMT -5
if thats the case, why do you use an ethnic term to describe an ordinary shepherd? youre getting paranoid again. whose claiming you destroyed our civilization? illyrians didnt have a civilization. in any case i dont believe illyrians are the ones that gave us our present identity. illyrian is involved only indirectly as assimilated just as it is among montenegrins. however i didnt know mountain-shepherding life was a civilization. thanks. have you seen montenegro? im sure you have. who would want to invade those limestones. the slavs settled zeta valley, around scutary lake and other plains like zadrima(south of scutary lake located in albania, by its name its surely a slavic origin tribe). thats where the real slavs settled. created their zeta or dukla kingdom. have you seen those mosaics of montenegrin kings vladimir or voislav whatever their names were. redish hair. pure slavs. thats all you did, settle the plains establish a cultural center and assimilate the indegious population living as vlach up in the mountains. ofcourse later on they will be slavinised and you can take pride in their mountain life you adopted as your own. who claimed that? many montenegrins though do have vlach ancestory. have you read catholic enclypodia on the dalmatian vlach? they describe them as brave, tall, dark, and whose strength rivals that of montenegrins. they sound to me like montenegrins, except stronger dark element but many montenegrins have that too. again not all serbs and montenegrins have vlach ancestory. but i do believe such element is very strong on dinaric(mountain chain) serbs. serbian chronicals record that first time they conquered kosovo they encountered vlach. many vlach were the frontier man on krajina. it was enough to catagorise all serbs in krajina and bosnia as vlach.
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Post by AWAR on Mar 15, 2004 22:38:31 GMT -5
if thats the case, why do you use an ethnic term to describe an ordinary shepherd? Because maybe, just maybe, the name Vlach became synonimous with shepherding. Also, the word Vlach is used differently in different parts of Serbia. So, in east Serbia, a Vlach is certainly an aromanian, in the south, it's used as the term for shepherd, in the north and west they don't even know what a Vlach is ( but that doesn't stop the Muslims from calling all Serbs as Vlachs ). etc. I'm glad you have common sense. Apparently many did invade or try to invade it. There are numerous other regions like montenegro in the world, and much blood has been spilled over them through history. So, what the hell are all those red-haired Albanians? Albanized Slavs? I only take pride in what I achieve personally. Possibly. The word Vlach there being used as a term for all orthodox christians, not ethnic Vlachs. You have to separate the various uses of one label. To the Catholics of the area, and that era, all orthodox christians, Serbs, Greeks, Roman(ian), Russian, were all considered to be Vlachs. To Greek historians, every non-Greek was labeled as Barbarian, or Scythian etc. this doesn't mean that all these peoples were Scythians, it just means that Greek historians weren't very accurate always. again not all serbs and montenegrins have vlach ancestory. but i do believe such element is very strong on dinaric(mountain chain) serbs. serbian chronicals record that first time they conquered kosovo they encountered vlach. many vlach were the frontier man on krajina. it was enough to catagorise all serbs in krajina and bosnia as vlach.[/quote]
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Post by labi on Mar 16, 2004 19:02:32 GMT -5
eastern serbia has some rumanians no? thats probably why. however we have record of vlach tribes, who were also good warriors living in the dinaric chain. now they have disappeared and assimilated among the serb populations since they were orthodox. after the blend all mountain men herding goats and sheep are known as vlach. im sure majority(there may be isolated regions which could actually derive from a majority vlach element) are not vlach decended but after settling in the mountains next to the, mix im sure you learned alot from them. i dont think original slavs knew anything about goats and sheeps, cows yes, but not semi-nomadic(transhumance) type of shepherding. the turks? they only tryed to subjugate you. if you didnt pay taxes, adjacent tribes will start to question turkish authority also. the fights were mostly against albanian muslim and serbian muslim armies against montenegrin armies, and they were there just for the raid. most are probably slavic origin. what can i do about it. im sure some are of native balkanic red-hair genes but i dont believe thats the case for majority. when i see the mosaic of vladmir or vpislav they are red-haired. when i see the montenegrin leaders of early 1800s. some guys with charcoal black-hair. big diffrence, no? a mix surely happened after ottoman occupation. ill show you the article, its specifically talking about actual vlach on the dinaric mountains.
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