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Post by labi on Mar 7, 2004 15:43:39 GMT -5
well they hate greeks, so there you have it. ;D
one of my cousins is from saranda area. the village of nivica. whic once used ot b part of himara coalition. his surname is papadhima. dhima i accept as albanian but papa??? but he doesnt look greek at all. he looks as i mentioed before like the lab soccer player fakaj thus a pure dinaric. his family owns the most land in nivica area.
lucky bastard. those coastal estates are doubling every year in their value.
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 7, 2004 19:37:03 GMT -5
True. How do we know something is Albanian, though? I know several southern Albanians with Greek last names (e.g., Dimarchou) who have no Greek ancestry and in fact hate the Greeks. Distant Greek ancestry would not make them love Greeks. Their obvious hatred of Greeks might be a way of disassociating themselves with that ancestry and not feel they are viewed with suspicion by other Albanians. BTW the surname Nano is Greek. I came across it as Nanos in Epirus.
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Post by Artemisia on Mar 8, 2004 9:35:53 GMT -5
Distant Greek ancestry would not make them love Greeks. Their obvious hatred of Greeks might be a way of disassociating themselves with that ancestry and not feel they are viewed with suspicion by other Albanians. BTW the surname Nano is Greek. I came across it as Nanos in Epirus. Who said that these people have Greek ancestry? Most Albanians with the above last names (Dimarchu, Dimas, Dimou) were nomadic Vlachs who crossed the Greek-Albanian border freely before Albania closed its borders. These last names may be Greek but you can be sure that these Albanians acquired them because they probably lived in Greece or were Hellenized (lots of Greek culture in south Albania), not because they have any Greek ancestry.....as I said above, they actually hate the Greeks. Yes, Nanos may be a Greek last name (it means elf after all) but Fatos Nano is an Albanian Vlach.
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Post by labi on Mar 8, 2004 14:18:43 GMT -5
dhima=dimitris for albanian. nothing greek about it. on the other hand there could b some albanians of greek ancestoy but i dont think they know it. just like there could be greek epirots wit albanian ancestory. now as of this comment.......... that applies for arvanitis who hate albanians and albania. its like a african american hating africa and africans.
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 8, 2004 14:23:39 GMT -5
You are right labi. When I made that suggestion I was fully aware that it applies to some Arvanites. There have been some scuffles between Arvanites and Albanian immigrants in Greece but we should not generalize.
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Post by labi on Mar 8, 2004 14:50:58 GMT -5
im sure some arvanitis are very nice but many of them seem to be very extreme greeks.
on the net most arvanitis come out as aggressive twards albanians. i havent met any in real life, or probably didnt know they were of arvaniti heritage since i dont ask greeks if they are arvanitis.
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Post by Artemisia on Mar 8, 2004 15:44:41 GMT -5
im sure some arvanitis are very nice but many of them seem to be very extreme greeks. on the net most arvanitis come out as aggressive twards albanians. i havent met any in real life, or probably didnt know they were of arvaniti heritage since i dont ask greeks if they are arvanitis. Most of the Arvanites I know (many, actually) are nice and they do like the Albanians.....in fact, many of them have left their houses to Albanian migrants. The only thing that bothers some Arvanites is the fact that they are afraid they will be seen as Albanians by the other Greeks. Many Arvanites deny the fact that their ancestors came from Albania. I also believe that it is some Arvanites from Greece who claim that the Illyrians were of Greek origin in order to justify their own ancestry.
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Post by labi on Mar 9, 2004 14:23:58 GMT -5
LOL
so they just pretend to hate us?
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Post by Artemisia on Mar 9, 2004 14:32:25 GMT -5
LOL so they just pretend to hate us? Probably. Most of the Arvanites I know are very nice to Albanian migrants. It's just that they want to deny their Albanian ancestry because they fear they will not be accepted.
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Post by labi on Mar 9, 2004 20:49:54 GMT -5
why would they not be accepted by the other greeks? arvanitis are greeks, only diffrence is their origins.
they have lived there for more than 600 years and played a major role on the greek revolution. if you ask me they got nothing to fear.
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Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 10, 2004 2:09:44 GMT -5
Yep, this is fascinating. How come the Arvanites speak the Tosk dialect if they come from the north, as indicated by their names?
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 10, 2004 6:35:15 GMT -5
Yep, this is fascinating. How come the Arvanites speak the Tosk dialect if they come from the north, as indicated by their names? I have not much research on the subject but I don't think the majority of Arvanites have northern Albanian surnames. Many even have Greek surnames. For example an Arvanitis I used to know is called Elafoyiannis, a very Greek surname. The way I understand things happened is that the first Arvanites came to Greece in the 13th century. They absorbed the existing Greek populations in the areas they settled and possibly some people of Slavic origin. Their dialect was definitely Tosk. "Massive settlements of Arvanites in Voiotia took place in 1383, due to the Catalan knight Ramon de Villanova. Amongst the many names of his comrades, he mentions Kriekouki, Liopesi, Schimatari, Mazi, Rampntosa, Kokla. All of these names are nowadays names of villages. There are two versions: Either the Venetians had given earlier these villages to these warriors, or they came from these villages. By both versions we know that Kriekouki must have been inhabited by Arvanites before 1571. The meaning of the word Kriekouki is red-headed or red-haired. " www.compusmart.ab.ca/rgiokas/kriekouki/History/kriekoukihist.htmwww.geocities.com/arvanitika/history.htmlThe Gheg speakers were stradioti who started arriving around 1500 AD. Mostly people who had fought with Skenderbey (the Ottoman conquest of Albania was not completed until 1506 AD). Their arrival was gradual and were absorbed by the Tosk speaking majority. Later additions might have involved Muslim Albanians who were hired by the Turks but I do not know of any examples of them settling anywhere in Greece. It is rather unlikely given their previous conduct and the hatred of the locals.
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Post by Artemisia on Mar 10, 2004 12:56:26 GMT -5
I have not much research on the subject but I don't think the majority of Arvanites have northern Albanian surnames. Many even have Greek surnames. For example an Arvanitis I used to know is called Elafoyiannis, a very Greek surname. The way I understand things happened is that the first Arvanites came to Greece in the 13th century. They absorbed the existing Greek populations in the areas they settled and possibly some people of Slavic origin. Their dialect was definitely Tosk. "Massive settlements of Arvanites in Voiotia took place in 1383, due to the Catalan knight Ramon de Villanova. Amongst the many names of his comrades, he mentions Kriekouki, Liopesi, Schimatari, Mazi, Rampntosa, Kokla. All of these names are nowadays names of villages. There are two versions: Either the Venetians had given earlier these villages to these warriors, or they came from these villages. By both versions we know that Kriekouki must have been inhabited by Arvanites before 1571. The meaning of the word Kriekouki is red-headed or red-haired. " www.compusmart.ab.ca/rgiokas/kriekouki/History/kriekoukihist.htmwww.geocities.com/arvanitika/history.htmlThe Gheg speakers were stradioti who started arriving around 1500 AD. Mostly people who had fought with Skenderbey (the Ottoman conquest of Albania was not completed until 1506 AD). Their arrival was gradual and were absorbed by the Tosk speaking majority. Later additions might have involved Muslim Albanians who were hired by the Turks but I do not know of any examples of them settling anywhere in Greece. It is rather unlikely given their previous conduct and the hatred of the locals. There are two kinds of Arvanites: those of Albanian and Vlach Albanian descent. People like Melina Mercouri are descended from Albanian settlers (in fact, her ancestors were from the area of Pilouri near Himara.) Those from Koritsa are mostly descended from Vlach Albanians. Most Arvanites have changed their names to Greek but there are still many who have kept their Albanian surnames. Albanian sources claim that these Arvanites who moved into Greece during and after Skenderbej are mostly of northern Albanian ancestry. I have a friend who is an Arvanitis and his name is Kostas Scodras. Bouboulina was an Albanian-speaker from the island of Spetses (or Hydra?) The name Spetses means "peppers" in Albanian. People who have lived in Greece for more than 500 years are bound to loose their ancestral language and culture. There were indeed Muslim Albanians who lived in Thesprotia (the Tsams) until Zervas drove them out in the 1940s for collaborating with the Nazis.
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Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Mar 10, 2004 15:06:25 GMT -5
But these guys presumably arrived or were converted quite late, in the 18th, possibly 17th Century? Let’s leave them out of the discussion for a moment.
I have a barrage of questions: I am particularily interested by what was happening in Thresprotia and the rest of South Epirus during the 13th-15th century. I have documents from the early 16th Century that talk about the arrival of Albanian settlers to the region in the late 15th century, with whom local landlords had to ‘come to an accomodation’. But Hammond et al indicate a pattern of Albanian incursions going back to the 13th Century. I have also heard of land grants to Albanians by the Serb kings during their domination of Epirus.
The confusion between linguistic and ethnic use of the term Albanian seems to bedevil this area of study. So: 1) What sort of fusion took place in the 11th-13th Century between Tosk-Speakers and Greek –speakers in the Himara area of what is now Southern Albania?
2) How widespread was the use of Albanian language, either as bi-lingualism or as mother-tongue, in rural South Epirus before the 16th Century?
3) Would an ethnic Greek from Thesprotia have been described as an Arvanite by Greeks in Ioannina if he spoke Albanian, because Albanian had over a few generations become a dominant language in Thresprotia by about 1560?
4) All these people would be Orthodox, presumably? Or would there have been a Catholic element if Ghegs were involved?
None of this has anything to do with the post-revolution national identity of the Orthodox communities of Southern Epirus, which was defined as Greek by virtue of their religion. However, it is probably from that time onwards that the speaking of Albanian became socially deprecated to some extent.
This is the first time I have heard of Vlachs being involved in this picture. I had always imagined a pattern of agricultural settlment, rather than pastoral, and by what were originally warriors of some Albanian lords - is this a role that fits the Vlachs?
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 10, 2004 20:31:58 GMT -5
There are two kinds of Arvanites: those of Albanian and Vlach Albanian descent. The latter are the Arvanitovlahoi. Strictly speaking they are essentially Vlachs and I don't think they should be called Arvanites. Many are (or were) tri-lingual. Obviously in the course of centuries something like that would happen inevitably but only to those who settled amongst solid Greek populations. Often the new surname reflects their now distant ethnic origin. For example Arvanitis, Arvanitakis, Arnaoutis, Kolias. I think the vast majority of Albanian surnames have been preserved slightly altered. The word Tsamis come from the ancient river Thyamis (Kalamas). At least that is what Babiniotis says. If we accept it as correct I can see three possibilities. 1) The Tsams have appropriated the name of the original inhabitants of the area. 2) The are indigenous Thesprotoi who converted to Islam and then adopted the language of the ruling elite, which in Epirus was effectively Albanian not Turkish. 3) They are descendants of an Illyrian tribe that have "always" lived there.
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