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Post by anodyne on Dec 30, 2005 22:07:24 GMT -5
Subsidization raises prices since there is no competition to speak of. It's a form of welfare. Taking from those who produce and handing it over to people who can't compete in the market against others to make sure their farm, business, etc. survives. If America went back to its free trade roots this wouldn't be a problem since free trade lowers prices because of competition and weeds outr the inefficient. Also, government subsidies are unconstitutional. ahh...but if we are really talking open markets and free trade then the market would always favour the cheaper Mexican lettuce pickers to any American farmer, no? Same law of supply and demand. This goes back to why I believe as do alot of economists that illegal immigration suppresses inflation We wouldn't be talking about small farmers here. I don't know of any small farmers would be competetive. What we would see is people, like illegal Mexicans immigrants today, working for a large employer. The difference is that the American worker is obviously here legally since they are citizens and the illegal immigrant worker is here... well, illegally. You're ignoring that illegal immigrants broke the law when they crossed over.
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Post by anodyne on Dec 30, 2005 22:17:45 GMT -5
So... I'm suppose to support an inefficient business with my tax dollars because... why? If a business fails then you move on to another business, or better yet, an incentive is given for innovators to pop out to make their business more competetive. Competition leads to change for the better. The consquences of subsidies and government control is that there is stagnation. Why bother investing in innovations to improve your businesses performance if you have no fear of going out of business?
First, the WTO shouldn't be dictating orders to anyone. For all their talk about free trade tehy are the biggest hypocrites. Second of all, the Filipino population benefits as a whole from lower prices. Why should other Filipino's be forced to subsidize a segment of the population. Here's a thought: become employed in something else taht doesn't demand extorting your neighbors.
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Post by wadad on Dec 30, 2005 22:23:21 GMT -5
Question: Was America more prosperous or less--before the recent avalanche of illegal aliens? Answer: America was more prosperous 50 years ago, when Americans did all the jobs now taken over by illegal aliens. I love listening to the propaganda of the Left, that America would die without illegal aliens, that fruit wouldn't be picked, that all civilization would end instantly if undocumented workers disappeared. Funny, I remember the same arguments being made by racists who didn't want to abolish slavery. If we freed the blacks, then all industry would stop, all progress would grind to a halt. Thank God no one listened to the slave masters. Because the cotton crop actually increased after slavery was abolished. It didn't diminish; production soared. Why? Innovation. Something called the cotton-gin. The cotton-gin existed for years, but slave-masters didn't want to bother with innovation. Why trouble yourself? Just like Rome, the greatest labor-saving device was the slave. So why innovate? Meanwhile the cotton-gin sat on the shelf as lazy slave-masters whipped captive Africans. When the slaves were freed, they were forced to fall back upon innovation; and--wonder of wonders!--production increased. It was higher after the Civil War than before. And you know what? --It was done without slaves and with zero Mexicans. America grew into the world's industrial giant, came into unexampled prosperity . . .and all without black slaves or Mexicans. So don't buy the lie: We need slaves or all industry will grind to a halt. It's the old slave-master's rhetoric, and we as a society have to decide what we want: The cotton-gin, or a South American-style two-tiered society with white masters and docile brown Indians picking fruit; do we want a 21st Century economy based on innovation, technology and industrialization, or do we want a 19th Century economy based on slavery . . . with the difference that we're replacing Ol' Black Joe with Li'l Brown Julio? The argument is stupid anyways. What they predictably never include is the so called "needed" aliens, and their bogging down of health care system that are supposed to be tending to actual taxpaying citizens and not aliens. Or their presence being synonymous with an increase of unemployment and with the sponging and subsequnt degeneracy of a slew of other national social programsm. last but not least, of course is the astonishing increase of crime. Which they do even more brazenly than your average criminal, seeing as they have no real identity, when it gets to hot all they need do is jump the border again. Which sadly is all to true. I recently saw an America detective show Called "first 48 hours" where a group of drug dealing Mexicans tortured and killed a neighbor in the condominium complex because he complained to the landlord about them drug dealing. Of course they never gave real names or anything and most likely headed south after the crime, and for this reason were never arrested. It's completely unreal how people can argue of behalf of aliens. I argue on behalf of illegal aliens not because I think they should remain. But because: 1) Illegal Aliens contribute to domestic ( I call it the shitty) labour. We all know an American worker would NEVER put themselves through an undocumented worker's day so dont act like you would. Why would you when you have papers, When employers dont look at you with their greedy eyes, when you know that you can fight employers who try to exploit you. Undocumented workers cant do any of that, they cant fight so they HAVE to accept the horrifiying pay they're given because they know that even though its shit pay, its better than where they were. 2) People who are anti-illegal immigrants are more likely racist as well..Yeah, I said it...look at Duke not only is he an advocate to end all illegal immigration, but even Legal immigrtion. They just legitimizing their hate by targetting Illegals. 3) Most of the claims that they drain the treasury is also lies/paranoia. They have fake papers, how are they going to use fake papers to claim social services like health? I just dont believe it man 4) Illegal aliens and the American elite go hand in hand in squeezong the Middle Class. However, out of the three...the elite, the middle class (or the working class lets call em) and the Illegals, only ONE are exploited! On average, immigrants (legal or illegal( rise on the socioeconomic scale the longer they're in the country, as do subsequent generations. The more successful they are, of course, the better it is for the general economy. So, though I do not favour more illegals coming in...shouldn the illegals who remain get some respect, given some slack? In the long run, won't that be more profitable than trying to corral them all and ship them home, only to wonder once they're gone how to fill the jobs they were doing while they were here?
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Post by tonynatuzzi on Dec 30, 2005 22:30:36 GMT -5
Wadad do you think Canada would benefit if it saw a drastic increase of illegal Mexicans.What percentage of Canada's population is Mexican/Hispanic do you know.
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Post by wadad on Dec 30, 2005 22:32:58 GMT -5
Wadad do you think Canada would benefit if it saw a drastic increase of illegal Mexicans.What percentage of Canada's population is Mexican/Hispanic do you know. No we dont have alot of mexicans here, just a few here and there. I dont want Illegals coming in to canada, or the US. However, theres already what? 20 million Illegals in the USA thats 20 million oppressed people who are being used by the rich and powerful, and all I see is disgruntled Americans venting at them instead on the powers that be. Its always easier to pick on the weak
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Post by anodyne on Dec 30, 2005 22:44:32 GMT -5
Who you think did it before illegal immigrants?
There is work in Mexico. If there wasn't then people from Central America wouldn't be immigrating illegally to southern Mexico. Immigrants come here because of the better wages. It's hard to claim exploitation when they get paid better in the US than on a southern Mexico farm. It's only exploitation if the person has no choice.
That some people dislike illegals has nothing to do wwith anything. We have laws in place and such laws should be respected.
Dude, it's a fact that they are a financial burden and that their output doesn't make up for the losses. Hospitals in southern California have been going out of business because illegal immigrants DON'T have health insurance. Some one has to pay the bills or else the hospital goes out of business. Also, take into account that children of illegals go to public school and therefore citizen's property taxes have to pay for their education. Add to that the disporportionate number of illegals in prison in California to their numbers and that it's the taxpayers who have to foot the bill to keep them there. That's just a few examples.
Large numbers are also on welfare. Fake papers go over well, In many cases they don't even need fake papers.
There is no exploitation when there's choice.
It would be more profitable to have them respect our laws and not be a burden on taxpayers. I'm all for the military being placed on the border. If we have a need for workers then we let people in legally. Guest worker programs would be a fine idea as well. In both cases we can screen foreigners.
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Post by dukeofpain on Dec 30, 2005 22:59:18 GMT -5
The immigrants are masochists then because after all they immigrated.
First you would see a dramatic increase in the quality of life for genuine citizens after having gotten rid of the alien scourge and the decadence they are aligned with, and secondly you'd see the decline of the all powerful capitalist swine elite (wal-mart, McDonals, Factory farming, etc.)
You don't even know what you're saying. If people are against alien immigration, obviously they are also against the businesses employing them, whom are ultimately their harborers. You have a twisted perspective if you think peoples "hate" of illegal immigrants is so abysmal that they would not heed the employers themselves, that you're saying are slave owners, and this slavery you're accusing the white majority of being indifferent towards. Though this twistedness is in line with the neo-egalitarian PC bull that you've been preaching. Which is markedly anti-majority, and full of contempt for white people.
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Post by anodyne on Dec 30, 2005 23:06:06 GMT -5
If they're against those businesses then they have a weird way of showing it considering they're very profitable.
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Post by Drooperdoo on Dec 30, 2005 23:06:08 GMT -5
Wadad, You're 100% right about Americans making their leaders punish corrupt businessmen in America who take part in this Underground Railroad of illegal aliens. We need to fine them, sue them and put the fear of God into anyone else who wants to do the same thing.
Where we disagree is your inability to see the millions of criminals, drug-runners, gang-bangers and rapists. You keep harping on all the "good, hard-working" illegal aliens. And no one is complaining about them.
We're complaining about a group of people who are "above the law" because they're in the United States invisibly--so all the restraints that would keep them in check in their own country are removed. So when you say "illegal" I don't think "honest guy," I think: Those reprobates who raped that woman in North Carolina, or who raped that 9 year-old in Ohio . . . those degenerates who then evaded justice by melting into the night.
You say "illegal" and think "people working and doing a job," I think "illegal" and think: People working under the table, who pay no taxes but then cost the actual taxpayers billions in free healthcare and welfare. So the employer who hires them saves a nickel--but he sticks the rest of the community with a tab for billions.
I'd like free healthcare, I'd like government money. But if I--a taxpayer--asked for it, they'd laugh in my face and say, "The U.S. isn't a socialist country". Yet my tax dollars are going to give illegals exactly that: socialized healthcare. Liberal judges ruled that you can't turn them away. But I--a citizen--can be turned away if I don't have money or health-insurance. The result: Hopsitals are going bankrupt in communities with massive illegal alien populations.
The schools are straining under the weight, the police force has to deal with massive jumps in crime-rates, and the state governments are going bankrupt. They just declared a state of emergency in New Mexico and Arizona because of what the illegals are doing to the infrastructure of those states.
So, yes, if you're a corrupt business-owner, illegal immigration's great. But if you're a little girl who's getting raped it's not so wonderful; if you're a person whose local hospital had to shut down, you don't think it's a marvelous thing; if you're a kid who got his fingers chopped off by Central American gang-bangers, you don't think that those "illegal aliens" are swell, hard-working boys.
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Post by Educate Me on Dec 30, 2005 23:20:14 GMT -5
are you sure they are not good busines?
you say that they bring problems to hospitals
for example
most national airlines lose money, but the country ends up making a good deal because of all the money they get with the tourists who come thru those airlines
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Post by anodyne on Dec 30, 2005 23:25:18 GMT -5
are you sure they are not good busines? you say that they bring problems to hospitals for example most national airlines lose money, but the country ends up making a good deal because of all the money they get with the tourists who come thru those airlines I don't understand what tourists have to do with illegal immigration and their inability to pay their medical bills. You need to expand on your statement.
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Post by tonynatuzzi on Dec 30, 2005 23:25:29 GMT -5
Did anybody here see the Fox news special awhile back on the MS-16 gang and how they dominate the drug trade in the Southwest region of the U.S.
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Post by Educate Me on Dec 30, 2005 23:33:00 GMT -5
what I mean is if he is sure they are a burden on the economy
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Post by tonynatuzzi on Dec 30, 2005 23:33:27 GMT -5
So I take it with the exception of Educate Me and Wadad,everybody else here is pro Minute Men.
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Post by Educate Me on Dec 30, 2005 23:39:11 GMT -5
I am actually torned, I think, it would be good for argentina, since it would destroy any chance of the americans of getting the continental free trade zone, and messing with south america.
but I feel bad for the illegal immigrants in the usa, and I think deporting them would not be humane, since most are very hard workers
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