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Post by betrand on Dec 15, 2005 2:26:49 GMT -5
For those unaware of the facts of his case, the 'witnesses' against Tookie were jailhouse snitches from rival gangs, one of whom was given immunity in a murder he committed and was taken out of jail to testify against Tookie Williams. There is no way a guy can fake being changed for well over 20 years. People can change. The death penalty in the US is barbaric and serves no purpose; its simply a legal form of eye-for-eye. It doesn't make things safer and it most certainly doesn't deter people from committing murder. Before anyone judges Tookie to be a 'black piece of shit' they should read the facts of the case and what actually happened. Betrand, Please know that I was never one of those people crying out "Black piece of shit." In fact, I also explained the negatives associated with the costs of the death penalty in the aforementioned thread as well. But what I was trying to do was look at it from both sides and the fact still stands that he killed 4 people, regardless as to whether they were white or black. The race of the victims was a non-issue for me, as it should be for anyone. Murderers are murderers, and victims are victims. Sure he may have done some things to reform himself during his prison sentence, such as speaking out against violence, etc., but that doesn't erase the fact that 4 innocent people were killed. Personally if I were Gov. Schwarzenegger, I would've had him simply imprisoned for the rest of his life without the possibility of parole, but because of what this guy did, his sentence of capital punishment was something he ultimately brought upon himself, and therefore, it's not as if his life is any tremendous loss to society. I apologize if that sounds harsh, but that's what I believe. Trust me, if Tookie were white, I'd think no differently. Additionally, if the victims were all black, I'd also think no differently. I also acknowledge the fact that there are far higher numbers of black inmates on death row than white inmates. Unfortunately there is certainly some bias in the criminal justice system and I don't deny this, but in this instance I'm only speaking about Tookie Williams. I know you didn't refer to Tookie as a black piece of crap, that was Crimson, its a wonder he wasn't banned for that, but moving on, I think Tookie should have gotten a new trial. After all, testimony from a rival gang member given immunity is shaky evidence, far from being compelling. If the evidence isn't clear cut there should be no death penalty.
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Post by anodyne on Dec 15, 2005 2:49:45 GMT -5
So whites don't get executed? that's news.
Violent criminals of any race are savages in my book. But I must point this out, you're making an assumption based on your own sense of victimhood.
And this matters how? Most violent criminals don't reform anyway, regardless of race.
For anything? Is that why during the "million" man march responsibilty was one of the themes?
First of all, that 90% includes Latinos. Latinos, whether they are white, mixed, or something else, are classified as white. So the statistic is corrupted.
The white crime rate is quite low considering their proportion to the US population, while the Black crime rate is almost 4 times much higher to their porportion to the population.
White Americans tend to be responsible, for the most part, that's why they're a minority in prisons even though they make up the majority of the population.
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Post by betrand on Dec 15, 2005 4:12:26 GMT -5
I never said that but to be real, blacks are far more likely to get the death penalty even when circumstances are identical. In Tookie's case, had he been white he would have been granted clemency.
Its reality, there's been polls and studies done on these things. I don't speak from victim hood though I have at various times been looked at funny because of my race.
how do you know this? Putting people behind bars for the sole purpose of punishment and not reformation produces repeat offenders. You've heard the old saying, "you reap what you sow".
That had nothing to do with anything within the context of what we are speaking. I think its narrow minded on the part of some whites to assume blacks like to blame others before looking at ourselves, however, whites are far more to blame than to look at themselves for what they do and or have done to others.
So now you are blaming the latinos? This is incorrect because the Crime Victimization Survey asks people who they were victimized by according to race, that has nothing to do with the FBI stats. Its misleading and scapegoating to pin the majority of those crimes on latinos since you have no way of computing just who did what. One thing the FBI does make clear is that crime is primarily intraracial. Demonizing one race as violent while ignoring this fact leads to unfair and false stereotypes.
Americans of all races tend to be responsible, so whats the point? Whites aren't more responsible than any other race.
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Post by dukeofpain on Dec 15, 2005 4:27:06 GMT -5
What twisted and disgusting people. That goes to show how truly demented these PC types are today. Self-hating scum that should just shut the f*ck up. You know why Blacks and Jews and other minorities think they can attribute any and all grievances as the workings of the hate-filled majority, thereby completely disregarding personal responsibility? It's because they have a self-hating majority, like these supporters, lamenting their supposed "wrongs" by proxy and habitually. It's a twisted cult of boundless guilt, that promotes this kind of sickness. And the cultists, especially careerist whore politician; xenophilic types, that dominate gov't, should shut the f*ck up. I don't think most blacks avoid personal responsibility for anything, if anything its whites that do. I never understood why so many white people pay attention crime by blacks and other nonwhites and not look at white crime or at the very least they attempt to play down white crime. 90% of violent crime committed against whites was done by whites, yet blacks and other minorities are frequently scapegoated demonized as the biggest threats against whites. Why aren't whites facing up to the fact that they victimize themselves more than any other race? Where's the personal responsibility? When you point a finger at someone remember you have four fingers pointing right back at you. Is that first sentence supposed to be a joke? BTW that figure is a lie. “Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.” “… between 2001 and 2003, blacks were 39 times more likely to commit violent crimes against whites than the reverse, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.” * “[Blacks] are eight times more likely than people of other races to rob someone, for example, and 5.5 times more likely to steal a car.” The single greatest indicator of an area’s crime rate is not poverty or education, but race and ethnicity. Even when one controls for income and education, the black crime rate is much higher than the white rate. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crimemensnewsdaily.com/blog/stix/2005/10/color-of-crime.html
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Post by betrand on Dec 15, 2005 6:56:37 GMT -5
[quote author=dukeofpain board Is that first sentence supposed to be a joke? BTW that figure is a lie. [/quote] No, but your post is a joke because most of what you posted came right straight from amren, which is ran by racist Jared Taylor and his lies. Lies and deception. The DOJ indicates that crime is primarily an intraracial phenomena, except in the case of crimes committed against Native Americans where whites are majority perpetrators. Comparing white-on-black to black-on-white does *NOT* in itself prove blacks or crime its self is something that racially predisposed. If we like, using that line of reasoning[selection bias, which is a big sin when interpreting stats], lets compare these stats from the DOJ: [/li][li]Approximately 60% of American Indian victims of violence, about the same percentage as of all victims of violence, described the offender as white. [/li][li]When asked the race of their offender,American Indian victims of violent crime primarily said the offender was white (57%), followed by other race (34%) and black (9%). [/li][li]In 66% of the violent crimes in which the race of the offender was reported, American Indian victims indicated the offender was either white or black (table 13). Nearly 4 in 5 American Indian victims of rape/sexual assault described the offender as white. About 3 in 5 American Indian victims of robbery (57%), aggravated assault(58%), and simple assault (55%) described the offender as white. In contrast [/li][li]The offender was described as black for about 1 in 10 incidents of rapes/ sexual assaults (8%), aggravated assaults (10%), and simple assault(9%), and about 2 in 5 robberies(17%) against American Indian victims (figure 2). So using this logic I can say whites are more prone to criminality because they commit far more crimes against Native Americans than blacks, yeah, great logic isn't it? Lets compare white-on-white to black-on-white crime using stats and sources from the DOJ and not racist nonsense from Amren and Jared Taylor. You regurgitate the same nonsense. How about some overall factuall stats and comparisons from the DOJ: On interracial crime - 80% of black violent crime is black on black while black-on-white crime accounts for just 12% of black crime - 70% of white violent crime is white-on-white, while white-on-black crime accounts for 18% of white crime www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/aic.pdfin view of this data above from the official DOJ crime stats, this statement: Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black. Is a lie, quit copying pasting jared Taylor's nonsense from amren.
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Post by ndrthl on Dec 15, 2005 9:02:24 GMT -5
i wonder how many innocent black people have been given the capital punishment in the US (%), as opposed to the number of innocent whites who have been executed.
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Post by ikilledjesus on Dec 15, 2005 9:05:30 GMT -5
Are you calling this man innocent?
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Post by nymos on Dec 15, 2005 9:18:52 GMT -5
Jared? Is that the guy who lost all those pounds eating subways? I KNEW that bastard was up to no good.
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Post by aroundtheworld on Dec 15, 2005 9:19:13 GMT -5
Let's not get this thread locked!
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Post by ndrthl on Dec 15, 2005 9:19:22 GMT -5
Are you calling this man innocent? i have no idea whether this man is or not innocent. but surely innocent people have been executed (errare humanum est, after all).
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Post by betrand on Dec 15, 2005 10:17:40 GMT -5
Are you calling this man innocent? i haven't claimed him to be innocent, I just the evidence used to put him on death row was shaky and in a case like that when reasonable doubt isn't 100% there should be no death penalty. i don't care about victim's rights in this regard, no victim has the right to decide if someone should die.
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Post by anodyne on Dec 15, 2005 12:15:34 GMT -5
Considering the crime and his past.. I think not.
It's a consequence of a high black crime rate.
It's common knowledge that people tend to be repeat offenders. Whether thay are burgalars or violent criminals.
I guess we should cuddle violent criminals. You may try but I'm not risking it. And yes, you reap what you sow... you commit the crime you pay the piper. No one is responsible for your own actions.
Well, when you hear blacks scream out "white racism" for basically every little thing, including a hang nail, whites, and asians and latinos, get tired and annoyed. It's considered bad taste for blacks to criticize other blacks in public. Isn't that reason why Bill Cosby was attacked by other blacks?
So you believe in group guilt? I'm not at fault for what another white person does. But if you want to follow that reasoning then you have to accept that whites may look at you as a criminal when you walk down the street considering your skin color. Pretty foolish, huh?
Stating a fact. Not blaming anyone.
Check the FBI statistics. Latinos are lumped in with non- hispanic whites. There is no separate category for latinos. With regards to hate crimes latinos, when they're the perpetrator, are lumped with non- hispanic whites but when they're the victim it's different.
Never said that Latinos make up the majority of the crimes. YOU said that just now. I said the stat is corrupted. I'm not sure what to think since the stat is corrupted.
Many violent crimes by blacks is on other blacks. Considering they live in predominately black communities this shouldn't be surprising. That this somehow proves that blacks are as, or less violent as whites, is faulty considering violent crimes among blacks is extrememly high.... unlike with white on white violent crimes.
If 2000 whites commit murder and 1000 blacks commit murder should we say that one race is less violent than the other considering the non- hispanic white population is 6 times higher than the black population?
The majority of Americans are responsible (well, not financially responsible) but regarding crime blacks are less so than whites and whites are less so than Asians. That most blacks don't commit crimes doesn't negate the large percentage that do.
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Post by betrand on Dec 15, 2005 12:36:54 GMT -5
Thats not a valid rationalization to execute anyone. Yes, he was the co-founder of the Crips gang and yes he was a gang member himself, does that make him automatically guilty of the crime in itself? Of course not. There was no solid evidence against him, not even a weapon recovered they could link to Tookie, the only evidence was the testimonies of rival gang members turned jailhouse snitches who were given immunity and special favors to basically say Tookie did it. Thats not what I call strong evidence.
Its misguided logic and stupidity, considering the fact that whites victimize themselves far more than blacks victimize whites. I would focus my attention on those who victimize me the most rather than those who victimize me 12% of the time.
No Bill Cosby wasn't attacked for that, he was attacked for characterizing blacks as scapegoats when the majority do not, its mostly the poor as with poor whites who blame blacks and other nonwhites for their problems. White nationalist in particular like to scapegoat Jews for everything, but the majority of whites do not. I think the white man has as much a guilt complex as the those blacks who cry an anti-black conspiracy.
I don't believe in group guilt, I was just using the same stupid, misguided logic that dukesof pain and Jared Taylor use, they like to use race as a predictor crime, which is stupid because it arouses fear in white of a group of people who victimize them at a far lesser rate than whites victimize themselves. I believe in assessing people as individuals, I'm speaking my mind now for me, not for the entire black race per se.
The same FBI that lists those lumped latinos with whites as perpetrators does likewise when it comes to victim stats, which is something that white nationalist ussually fail to mention when they make their "War of black against white" chants to stir up fear against blacks.
I never stated so either but its irritating when people give the impression that nonwhite Latinos boast up white crime stats in order to downplay white crime and make whites look like responsible citizens and victims and not perpetrators.
Most crimes committed by whites was done to other whites as with blacks. My point is that race has nothing to do with it, one isn't automatically predisposed to committing crimes because of their race which is why people like William Bennett need a bullet in their brain for suggesting that aborting black babies would reduce the crime rate.
Crime stats don't prove who's more responsible than who especially when it comes to race. What another black does wrong speaks nothing about me.
And ditto for whites who focus on black crime and attempt to ignore and or play down white crime.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Dec 15, 2005 13:06:56 GMT -5
May the Force be with you, Charlie.
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Post by betrand on Dec 15, 2005 13:14:19 GMT -5
May the Force be with you, Charlie. Hey whats up Mike?
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