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Post by Yankel on Dec 9, 2005 0:27:43 GMT -5
If Israel attacks Iran pre-emtivly, russia will no doubt intervenve. Just like it nearly did in serbia. If Israel innitiated a nuclear attack on one of it's neigbours, Russia would vaporize the jewish state. Israel, unlike certain third world theocratic regimes, doesn't make threats to wipe certain third world theocracies off the map. And it's the only state in the Middle East actually capable of nuking the entire region. Russia wouldn't bother to intervene, either. They're too busy trying to become important again.
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Post by dukeofpain on Dec 9, 2005 2:29:18 GMT -5
Short Lived? Catholic and Protestant friction also goes back many centuries and has a violent History. Ever heard of the Huguenots, or Guy Fawkes? Even in recent times, when potentiated by politics, is enough to cause civil strife, as seen in Ireland.
It has many parallels to this Islamic schism. Could you show me instances, as say presently, where there is Shiite-Sunni tensions, when it is because of the different sectarianism, and not politics?
There is only conflict when there is a minority being shat on by the majority. This isn't unique to the Islamic world. Islam is historically a religion of tolerance, whether it be with the Jews in Spain, or Christians in Jerusalem, this is especially the case when they're both Muslims, regardless of squabbling over the legitimacy of a few caliphs.
You have a poor understanding of Islam and Muslims, As you made clear claiming that Sunnis-Shiites are warring peoples, regardless of political factors. Same with in a previous thread, claiming Arabs in Israel have more "rights" than other Arabs. It does sounds like the kinda junk you'd hear on American media though. Maybe you should actually talk to a Muslim, rather than rely on lie ridden agitprop.
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Post by dukeofpain on Dec 9, 2005 2:31:35 GMT -5
Dukeofpain, You said that there were no Catholic-Protestant stressors in America [in contradistinction to Northern Ireland]. Actually, there was massive conflict. The Ku Klux Klan had Catholics on its list of undesirables, leaguing them with blacks and Jews. After the Civil War depleted America of millions of young men, Congress opened up immigration to Eastern and Southern Europe. Millions of Catholics flooded into traditionally-Protestant America. Read books and newspapers from the 1890s-1930s. There were massive anti-Catholics outbreaks. FDR was accused of padding his administration with Catholics to get Vatican money. The protestants trumped up the now-famous "separation-of-church-and-state" rhetoric to stem Catholic influence in America. Even as late as 1960, John F. Kennedy had to contend with anti-Catholic bigotry. It's shocking to think about today, but Catholics encountered a massive backlash in the early 20th Century. No, that's not what I said. I said during the upheaval in northern Ireland there were other Catholic - Protestant communities simultaneously free of conflict.
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Post by dukeofpain on Dec 9, 2005 2:40:33 GMT -5
If Israel attacks Iran pre-emtivly, russia will no doubt intervenve. Just like it nearly did in serbia. If Israel innitiated a nuclear attack on one of it's neigbours, Russia would vaporize the jewish state. Israel, unlike certain third world theocratic regimes, doesn't make threats to wipe certain third world theocracies off the map. And it's the only state in the Middle East actually capable of nuking the entire region. Russia wouldn't bother to intervene, either. They're too busy trying to become important again. No it's spends it's time in laboratories experimenting with race-specific bio-warfare, and nuclear weapons, so it can actually do it. But like I said. Countries like Russia would not stand Idly by to Israeli aggression. Russia is capable of wiping out the middle east region one thousand times over. If Israel initiated a nuclear attack, Israel would cease to exist.
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Post by dukeofpain on Dec 9, 2005 2:52:35 GMT -5
Just like Israel has acted to all resolutions passed by the UN. Non-binding resolutions notwithstanding, Israel has been very cooperative with the UN. Many times UN resolutions are unjust, and the US has intervened on Israel's behalf. You mean Zionists in America intervened. If one was to exclude Zionist fifth columns, and Zionist multi-million lobby groups, I wonder how chauvinistic America would be regarding Israel?
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Post by syriano on Dec 9, 2005 3:27:40 GMT -5
I came across this article a while back is it true? Ten questions to the Zionists 1. IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that: a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily. 2. IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti. 3. IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments: a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees. b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war. c) No ransom will be paid 4. IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber. 5. IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved. 6. IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions). 7. IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany. 8. IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation "Only to Palestine!" 9. IS IT TRUE that the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed. 10. IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weitzman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weitzman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe". www.jewsnotzionists.org/tenquestions.htm
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Post by anodyne on Dec 9, 2005 3:44:57 GMT -5
Short lived in comparison. Northern Ireland is caught in a time warp. Everyone else has moved on. Seriously, from Charles V's wars to the 60 years war that ended in the mid 17th century the conflict between Protestant/Catholic doesn't even show up on the radar except in Ireland.
This was your quote:
Iranians aren't anti-Arab. They're Muslims, Arabs are Muslim, they support their Muslim friends and neighbors.
I never claimed that there is nothing political about the conflict. The reason for the split between Persians (Shiites) and Arabs (mostly Sunni) was political, just as the wars between Catholics and Protestants was mainly political, but you're claiming that Shiites and Sunnis see each other as "friends." What I'm stating is that the Sunni and Shiites are wary of each other and this based on centuries of warfare between Shiites and Sunnis. They are more apt to see each other as allies when confronting a mutual enemy but they don't see each other as "friends." They don't like each other at all.
Lets not go over board. Islam, throughout history, has fluctuated between tolerance and intolerance depending on its position. During the late 11th century Jews and Christians fled to northern Spain after they came under attack by a wave of fanaticism. Also, Islamic history is full of civil wars and bloody retribution. Even during Islam's golden age wars were constant between different groups of Muslims. These conflicts were religious/ethnic/political all mixed together.
ummm.. they have a history of warring with each other... a very long history. That politics and religion are mixed up together is no surprise.
They do.
hmmm.... so instead of relying on various reliable news sources you would base your opinion on what some random Muslims tells you? I don't see how Ali the cab driver will provide me better information than various news sources (BBC, NY Times, Washington Times, etc.) I tend to rely on what professionals and respected journalists state rather than what Ali the cab driver has to say.
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Post by Yankel on Dec 9, 2005 4:00:34 GMT -5
No it's spends it's time in laboratories experimenting with race-specific bio-warfare Been visiting WRH much? It's impossible for Israel to create race-specific weapons, as the Palestinians do not constitute a race. Futhermore, Jews are genetically similar to Arabs. It already has the capability to fry the entire Middle East. Again, though, Israel has yet to make any nuclear threats. The technology is there as a deterrent. Whether or not Russia would attack Israel is moot, you dunce.
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Post by yigal on Dec 9, 2005 4:07:44 GMT -5
first of we are not gay so i have no idea who this guy f*cks or hugenuts is but keep that to yourself, second Ireland has like 0 protestants, what it has is Catholics and Anglicans, Anglicans are still catholic(lower case C) and in apostolic succesion like Orthodox(catholics) and Romans(catholics)
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Post by anodyne on Dec 9, 2005 4:10:17 GMT -5
Yigal, he's referring to Northern Ireland. The Scot- Irish aren't Anglicans. They're Presbyterian.
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Post by Yankel on Dec 9, 2005 4:15:07 GMT -5
Your 10 questions piece is little more than anti-Zionist propaganda.
Why should Jews have to give up their property and move to Spain to avoid being systematically slaughtered? The assertion that they knew they were going to be gassed if they didn't comply is a total fallacy. The truth is that most Jews didn't realize the severity of the situation. Claiming otherwise is not only lying but tantamount to saying the Shoah was self-inflicted.
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Post by nockwasright on Dec 9, 2005 4:16:00 GMT -5
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Post by Funky Kong on Dec 9, 2005 6:54:30 GMT -5
Heh, the Iranian proposal sounds completely logical.
Transjordan was never considered to be part of the area which was to be split between Jews and Arabs, it was always supposed to be Palestine west of the Jordan, so that argument is invalid.
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Post by syriano on Dec 9, 2005 7:11:10 GMT -5
Your 10 questions piece is little more than anti-Zionist propaganda. Why should Jews have to give up their property and move to Spain to avoid being systematically slaughtered? The assertion that they knew they were going to be gassed if they didn't comply is a total fallacy. The truth is that most Jews didn't realize the severity of the situation. Claiming otherwise is not only lying but tantamount to saying the Shoah was self-inflicted. of course they should not give up their homes to leave for spain, england or US, kicking them out is wrong. what I am saying is (if the source is correct) they would have left to Palestine if it was offered. If the claims are correct, then they prefferd to let jews die and get Palestine after the alies win, rather than save the jews to places like the US during the nazi requiem... I am not saying the source is correct, but can you show me their lies? (I hate propaganda too)
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Post by DeLacroix on Dec 9, 2005 9:25:27 GMT -5
I agree. I want to see the UN take decisive action this time. Just like Israel has acted to all resolutions passed by the UN. Israel just wants to defend its people and its existence. And it's widely known that Europe is anti-Israel and anti-semitic. Remember the Eurabia Alliance of the 60's.
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