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Post by Melnorme on Nov 26, 2005 18:59:31 GMT -5
How many anti-Jews are there on Dodona anyways. Not many. Only the brave/smart ones stick around, for, ahem, obvious reasons.
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Post by Drooperdoo on Nov 26, 2005 19:16:41 GMT -5
See? With all due respect, Tony's reaction was the conditioned response we're all supposed to have: To question the legitimacy of some people's claims of victimhood = hatred of all Jews, everywhere.
In fact, as Norm Finkelstein points out: To let the liars and scammers go free is the greatest insult to the people who really suffered. And there are MILLIONS of these scammers. Finkelstein's own parents were Holocaust survivors. His mom was shocked and dismayed that the list of "survivors" keeps growing with each year. All other World War II groups are dying off, but Holocaust claimants--in defiance of all logic--are actually GROWING with each passing year. Finkelstein's mom said, "With all these 'survivors,' who did Hitler kill?"
And that's the greatest evil of the scammers. They add legitimacy to the Holocaust-deniers' position: Because if all these millions of Jews survived, and we know EXACTLY how many there were in Europe, thanks to census statistics . . . "Who did Hitler kill?"
So in conclusion: Exposing the liars and manipulators is NOT a hatred of Jews. It's the greatest sacrament that we can carry out to honor the legitimate people who suffered and who deserve reparation money that is being siphoned off and stolen by scammers.
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Post by zathuras on Nov 26, 2005 19:28:59 GMT -5
I am going off topic here but all this holocaust talk reminded me of something peculiar.
In the 30's and 40's in Germany and in all of europe being Jewish was an ethnicity and not much else. This fact hit me like a ton of bricks today when I realized that lets say you were a convert to judaism during that time....you could easily just convert out to save your own neck. But if you were an athiest but born to a jewish mother or even just a father, there was nothing you could do about it. You were screwed whether you were in Greece or in Germany or Poland. Orthodox Jewish law mattered nothing in europe during this time. Ancestrt is what mattered. Hell, you could even be a "messianic jew" or a "jew for jesus" and still be more of target for extermination than a convert. If you were so much as a quarter jew, you were still screwed. If you were a convert, you could save yourself.
So this might be today why so many people including myself and other jews and even more gentiles have come to define jewish as more ethnic than religious. If anyone has any thoughts contradicting what I said I would be more than happy to hear them and discuss this mild hypothesis of mine.
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Post by dukeofpain on Nov 26, 2005 19:34:44 GMT -5
Heh, claiming that the "overwhelming likelihood" that she's a liar without evidence is just as bad as saying she is a liar considering you have no proof of any kind to make such a statement. If i said there is an "overwhelming likelihood" that you're are a thief you wouldn't be too thrilled considering I have nothing to base this on. I'd have to have some evidence to make that assumption. I gave my source, which was the Book the Holocaust Industry. Saying there's a high probability of lying, and calling someone a liar, is two completely different things(except in your thought process). If I was to say " I am 9 Feet tall", and someone posted a comment saying in all likelihood that I am lying, I would have no problem with it, given that in all likely a person that claims it is lying. Don't turn this into another thread in which post your excrement and childish accusations, that you seemingly can't live without doing.
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Post by eufrenio on Nov 26, 2005 19:44:14 GMT -5
Well, Zathuras, some Jews went unharmed because they were married to Gentiles. I can´t remember his name, but a Jew lived in Dresden until the end of the war unbothered by the Nazi authorities. He even published his memoirs. And quarter Jews were legally "aryan".
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Post by tonynatuzzi on Nov 26, 2005 19:59:03 GMT -5
So quarter Jews or less were considered Gentiles in Nazi Germany so the 1/8 Jew Yigal would have been considered a Gentile back then and would not have been put in a concentration camp.
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Post by zathuras on Nov 26, 2005 20:00:13 GMT -5
Well, Zathuras, some Jews went unharmed because they were married to Gentiles. I can´t remember his name, but a Jew lived in Dresden until the end of the war unbothered by the Nazi authorities. He even published his memoirs. And quarter Jews were legally "aryan". Really? I don't doubt what you say, and I believe you. It just surprises me because so many marriages were broken up where the gentile wife or husband was left unharmed whereas the jewish spouse and his/her child went off to camps. Did you ever see life is beautiful? It was a really good movie.
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Post by zathuras on Nov 26, 2005 20:03:25 GMT -5
So quarter Jews or less were considered Gentiles in Nazi Germany so the 1/8 Jew Yigal would have been considered a Gentile back then and would not have been put in a concentration camp. I don't know. You might be right but I can't say for sure. I would assume if you chose to renounce your new religion you could save yourself. But I am not positively sure how the laws worked concerning converts. Logically I would imagine your statement is correct. I guess though if you were half or more you went off to a camp. If not...you didn't?....I think?
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Post by tonynatuzzi on Nov 26, 2005 20:08:19 GMT -5
There are some articles that claim that most Spaniards and most Portuguese have minor ancient Sephardic Jewish ancestry and that most of them converted to Catholicism which is why most of them are not practicing Jews today.Is there any truth to this.
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Post by eufrenio on Nov 26, 2005 20:15:02 GMT -5
Well, Zathuras, some Jews went unharmed because they were married to Gentiles. I can´t remember his name, but a Jew lived in Dresden until the end of the war unbothered by the Nazi authorities. He even published his memoirs. And quarter Jews were legally "aryan". Really? I don't doubt what you say, and I believe you. It just surprises me because so many marriages were broken up where the gentile wife or husband was left unharmed whereas the jewish spouse and his/her child went off to camps. I wish I could remember the book. The author is pretty famous. Many Jews were not deported to avoid offending their gentile relatives. The second half of the film, which takes place in the camp turned me off. It was sinister.
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Post by zathuras on Nov 26, 2005 20:17:26 GMT -5
There are some articles that claim that most Spaniards and most Portuguese have minor ancient Sephardic Jewish ancestry and that most of them converted to Catholicism which is why most of them are not practicing Jews today.Is there any truth to this. Well a lot of them, probably not most. In Mexico there are a lot of these Jews. Actually, my father's first wife was a Sephardic Jew from Mexico, but that was before I was born. They divorced before me or my sister were even born and they didn't have any kids. I never even knew her. I have seen pictures of her though.
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Post by anodyne on Nov 26, 2005 20:23:18 GMT -5
If you call someone a liar then we can assume that you know for a fact that person is a liar and could provide evidence. To state that someone is a likely liar and using the fact that some others (in this case people who state they are Holocaust survivors but are not) have lied is not evidence that that particular person is lying. Since not all people who claim to have survived the Holocaust are liars your assumption that such and such a person is likely a liar is poor reasoning. It's like stating that if Blacks have a higher rate of murder then your next door neighbor Herb, who is black, is probably a murderer.
Heh, but you forget that the vast majority (99.9999999...etc.) of people aren't 9 feet tall so the probability that the person is lying is extremely high. But many Jews did survive the Holocaust. So you're unable to assume, without evidence, whether that person is lying.
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Post by anodyne on Nov 26, 2005 20:25:51 GMT -5
Droop, Scammers should be brought into the light and shamed for taking advantage of a tragedy. I just find it annoying when certain groups use it as ammunition to the downplay the entire atrocity.
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Post by anodyne on Nov 26, 2005 20:28:33 GMT -5
It's probably minimal.
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Post by murphee on Nov 26, 2005 20:29:44 GMT -5
The way I see it is: a lot of Jews were killed in the Holocaust AND there were also many survivors, as in any genocide. I've only met one survivor, and I believe the story she told me, the other relative of a relative (the one I mentioned earlier) I've never met.
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